Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Italian North Africa

The following discussion is an archived debate of the proposed deletion of the article below. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this page.

The result was redirect to Italian Libya. (non-admin closure) Ifnord (talk) 00:39, 14 December 2018 (UTC)[reply]

Italian North Africa[edit]

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Procedural nomination only to generate broader discussion, in this, the appropriate forum, and thereby stop the redirection/recreation war once and for all. I have no opinion. UnitedStatesian (talk) 17:06, 7 December 2018 (UTC)[reply]

Redirect to Italian Libya, due to the lack of reliable sources that identify "Italian North Africa" as a distinct entity from "Italian Libya", the more common name for the territory. _signed,Rosguill ^talk 18:14, 7 December 2018 (UTC)[reply]
Redirect per Rosguill. Kirbanzo (talk) 18:17, 7 December 2018 (UTC)[reply]
Maintain because there are reliable sources (books, like "La guerra in Libia e in Tunisia, 1940-1943" of Bruno Marin ---- "I 'Reparti speciali' italiani nella seconda guerra mondiale, 1940-1943" of Luigi Longo ---- Battistelli, Pier Paolo. "Italian Army Elite Units & Special Forces 1942-43" ---- Gray. Ezio. "Le nostre terre ritornano: Malta, Nizza, Corsica. Ed. De Agostini ---- Michele Brondino, tenth chapter of "La stampa italiana in Tunisia: storia e società, 1838-1956"; and additionally some essays in Italian, like Carlo Rastrelli, "Un esercito in camicia nera" in Storia Militare/June 2004). Furthermore we must remember that the article is a partial translation of an article in the Italian Wikipedia (it:Africa Settentrionale Italiana), that it is accepted there without problems since 2013. Finally, in Italian history books there are many references to the fact that existed two areas of the Italian empire in Africa: the Africa Orientale Italiana (AOI) and the Africa Settentrionale Italiana (ASI). So, why there it is no problem -FOR EXAMPLE- for the French Equatorial Africa and the French West Africa, while there it is all this mess with deletion/move for the Italian Africa?. Additionally I want to add these excepts from an Italian essay of a serious editor: …."12 Aprile 1937: Viene costituito il Comando Superiore FF.AA. dell' "Africa Settentrionale Italiana"; sono costituiti in Italia e inviati in Libia il XX Corpo d'Armata, con la 60^ Divisione Fanteria autotrasportabile "Sabratha", dislocata nel Garian, e la 61^ Divisione Fanteria autotrasportabile "Sirte", etc.../ April 12, 1937: It was created the Supreme Command FFAA of the "Italian North Africa"; are created in Italy and sent to Libya...etc...etc......" (from [[1]]).--5Pgcabi (talk) 19:18, 7 December 2018 (UTC)[reply]

Striking vote by sock puppet account. ~Oshwah~^{(talk) (contribs)} 16:26, 9 December 2018 (UTC)[reply]

Note: This discussion has been included in the list of History-related deletion discussions. CAPTAIN RAJU^(T) 20:15, 7 December 2018 (UTC)[reply]

Note: This discussion has been included in the list of Africa-related deletion discussions. CAPTAIN RAJU^(T) 20:16, 7 December 2018 (UTC)[reply]

Note: This discussion has been included in the list of Italy-related deletion discussions. CAPTAIN RAJU^(T) 20:17, 7 December 2018 (UTC)[reply]

Comment. @5Pgcabi: you have named a lot of sources, but there is little indication of what they say. Please provide some direct quotes. The one quote you give at the end is about XX Corps being sent to Libya, so it is unclear that Africa Settentrionale Italiana refers to anything more than Libya. The acceptance of the article on Italian Wikipedia is neither here nor there as far as English Wikipedia is concerned. We each have our own criteria for inclusion. SpinningSpark 01:53, 8 December 2018 (UTC)[reply]

It is CLEARLY written "Africa Settentrionale Italiana" (ASI) meaning that there was Supreme Command for the Italian Forces in "Italian North Africa", according to the serious editor of "Militaria". I showed the exact words because it is a CLEAR proof of the existence of the "ASI". Of course this was related to all the Italian possessions in north Africa, that only in 1934 were united in the so called "Libya"...and that later were used for the occupied territories in Tunisia in 1942 (also for administrative issues related to the Tunisia population). For example, here it is a document showing a 1942 letter with stamped on it "COMANDO SUPERIORE FORZE ARMATE AFRICA SETTENTRIONALE" [[2]], but the precise words ASI are usually found only when Tunisia was conquered....and it is a very brief period of time, with no easy documentation to be found. --5Pgcabi (talk) 02:11, 8 December 2018 (UTC)[reply]

The existence of a military supreme command ASI does not prove that ASI exists as a political or administrative unit, or even as a common name for the Italian possessions in Africa. Compare, for instance, Supreme Headquarters Allied Powers Europe. Sure, the geographical entity "Europe" exists, but that is not the same as the boundaries of NATO. You are now trawling through primary documents to try and make your case. That says to me that you don't have a notable topic, even if your claims are correct. Primary sources are not convincing in the absence of secondary sources drawing conclusions from them. SpinningSpark 09:14, 8 December 2018 (UTC)[reply]

Wait a moment, SpinningSpark et al. I am adding CLEAR proof of the existence of the "Africa Settentrionale Italiana" in Italian books and essays. Here it is the page for the book of Gray Ezio. "Le nostre terre ritornano: Malta, Nizza, Corsica". Ed. De Agostini...:pg.32! The other books are in a public library and I have to find time to get the related page asap. I am also adding the serious "Militaria" reference and a copy of a letter [ http://www.mymilitaria.it/liste_03/lettera_nistri_ciano.htm ] with stamped "comando superiore forze armate Africa settentrionale" (may be you don't know that the Italian military never use the word "Italy and/or Italian" in their names because it is obvious to what they are related: so the full name should be "co..su..fo..ar..Africa settentrionale ITALIANA", and this is additional evidence of the existence of a military administrative unit! and in Wikipedia there are articles related to military administration, don't you remember?). Furthermore, the Italian occupation of Tunisia created for some months the need to administrate the conquered region, with Italian schools reopened for example. The problem is that it is a very brief period of time, with no easy documentation to be found, as I wrote....but I am searching also in the education data of Italy. What else do you want? A document signed by the same Mussolini creating the ASI?...WOW....Anyway, this matter is going too far and too away: sincerely, the smell of antiitalianism is very very very strong here! All this remembers me when I created years ago in en.wikipedia -with an IP in July 2007- the article "Italian conquest of British Somaliland": soon it was erased (by the "usual" British wikipedians who hate Italy in WW2) because classified "without encyclopedic importance"....but now the article -greatly improved by serious wikipedians- is accepted without problems. Anyway, do what you all want, I am out of all this mess for a small article. Sincerely,--5Pgcabi (talk) 15:34, 8 December 2018 (UTC)[reply]

"What else do you want?" you ask. I want significant coverage in reliable sources that are independent of the subject. This is a more onerous requirement than mere proof of existence. Nor is it anything to do with Anti-Italianism. The same standard is applied to all articles. Since the author of the article has declared they will provide no further evidence, then delete. SpinningSpark 16:46, 8 December 2018 (UTC)[reply]

Maintain. Same reasons of 5Pgcabi. More than half the coverage of wikipedia's articles is done with sources that are NOT independent of the subject. The evidences shown by the authors (I am the wife of one of them) are sufficient IMHO. And one evidence shows in a letter-photo the existence of a 'military administrative unit' with the name Africa Settentrionale (Italiana)! I am adding the text of a version of the article "Italian North Africa" to my weblog (https://adviceandresearch.blogspot.com/2018/12/italian-north-africa.html), with the consent of the authors. --LWife (talk) 15:57, 9 December 2018 (UTC)[reply]

Striking vote by sock puppet account. ~Oshwah~^{(talk) (contribs)} 16:26, 9 December 2018 (UTC)[reply]

Redirect to Italian Libya. I don't see sources treating the two as distinct. The borders of Italian Libya were in flux - but that's true of many historical entities. Perhaps if WWII ended differently the Italians would've organized their territory differently, but that did not happen. Icewhiz (talk) 11:38, 10 December 2018 (UTC)[reply]
Redirect to Italian Libya, and then protect the redirect from being reconstituted into an article. It is unclear to the exact distinction between the two terms, and the reader is best served if all iterations of the Italian presence in Northern Africa are contained in a single article.Onel5969 ^{TT me} 10:22, 11 December 2018 (UTC)[reply]
Obviously redirect per others, as there were no other Italian colonies there. Peterkingiron (talk) 17:28, 13 December 2018 (UTC)[reply]

The above discussion is preserved as an archive of the debate. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this page.