Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Iio Tazu

The following discussion is an archived debate of the proposed deletion of the article below. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this page.

The result was delete. This is not an easy discussion to close. A good case could be made for closing this as No Consensus, but due to the open questions about possible WP:COPYVIO and meeting WP:V, I'm going to go with delete. Both of those are fundamental, inviolable, policies.

There's some pending research and translation efforts. If this hadn't already seen three relists and been open for more than a month, I would relist it to give those time to get finished. But, I think at this point we need some kind of closure. -- RoySmith (talk) 16:46, 15 April 2017 (UTC)[reply]

Iio Tazu[edit]

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Article discusses a fictional character but the references don't reflect this. Almost definitely copyright infringement from http://koei.wikia.com/wiki/Tazu_Iio . May not be notable. EDIT: May not be entirely fictional, but no indication of real presence either. RoCo^(talk) 17:40, 13 March 2017 (UTC)[reply]

Note: This debate has been included in the list of Women-related deletion discussions. Shawn in Montreal (talk) 20:36, 14 March 2017 (UTC)[reply]

Note: This debate has been included in the list of History-related deletion discussions. Shawn in Montreal (talk) 20:36, 14 March 2017 (UTC)[reply]

Note: This debate has been included in the list of Japan-related deletion discussions. Shawn in Montreal (talk) 20:36, 14 March 2017 (UTC)[reply]

Comment - The Japanese wiki article (jp:お田鶴の方) makes it clear she is a real figure, though it notes the various versions of her story. The article is relatively well referenced, though it uses a lot of Edo era texts that are not easy to check. Michitaro (talk) 04:10, 15 March 2017 (UTC)[reply]
- @Michitaro: Well, the first reference did not mention her name, so I thought it wasn't reliable. But what about the copyright infringement. I will withdraw this nomination if it's found to be clear of any copyright violation. RoCo^(talk) 13:23, 16 March 2017 (UTC)[reply]
Probably keep -- Since precise dates are given, I take this to be history, not fiction. Assuming COPYVIO issues do not arise, this relates to an incident of history. I know far too little of Japan to know whether or not this was a notable series of events. If kept, the article needs a lead section to take the reader into the subject, rather than plunging straight inot the midst of events. Peterkingiron (talk) 16:26, 18 March 2017 (UTC)[reply]

Relisted to generate a more thorough discussion and clearer consensus.
Please add new comments below this notice. Thanks, North America¹⁰⁰⁰ 07:54, 20 March 2017 (UTC)[reply]

Relisted to generate a more thorough discussion and clearer consensus.
Please add new comments below this notice. Thanks, North America¹⁰⁰⁰ 07:34, 27 March 2017 (UTC)[reply]

TNT Delete While the subject may or may not have existed, the current content is not at all verifiable (and no good version to go back too). It has been entirely copied from Wikia and the sources in the article do not mention anything about the subject. I am unable to find sources. This is ripe for a TNT which will probably allow an interested editor to start again. --Lemongirl942 (talk) 09:19, 27 March 2017 (UTC)[reply]
Comment Whether the individual is fictional or real is irrelevant. Likewise, COPYVIO is a good reason to blank a page but not to delete it, because the same source could be paraphrased. The only thing that matters is whether the subject has received significant direct coverage in reliable sources (notability and verifiability as per Lemongir). On this I don't see enough of either as-is, but lack knowledge of the subject area to know if this isn't just an article on a notable subject in need of improvement or if it merits going away. Agricolae (talk) 01:25, 2 April 2017 (UTC)[reply]
Strong DELETE- Fails WP:GNG and WP:BASIC. The subject of the article does not appear to be notable nor do the references seem to establish notability. Both WP:GNG and WP:BASIC require require the subject to have received "significant coverage in multiple published secondary sources that are reliable, intellectually independent of each other, and independent of the subject" and "Significant coverage is more than a trivial mention, but it does not need to be the main topic of the source material.". Neither of the references seem to meet these requirements.

reference 1 - Women Warriors of Japan: Early History is a a promotional site to sell books and not useful for establishing notability. See "Vendor and e-commerce sources".
reference 2 - I was unable to find Otatsu-no-Kata in "Samurai Women 1184-1877" - perhaps she may be referred to under another name although there is very little text about the time period in the 16th century prior to 1573.

Although wikipedia articles can not be used to establish notability per WP:WPNOTRS and WP:USERG. the Japanese wiki article mentioned in a previous comment doesn't appear to be the same person (jp:お田鶴の方). This article states that her spouse is Rinao Iioo [[[:jp:飯尾連竜]]], and the Riano Iioo lists お田鶴の方 as his spouse. I have been unable to find appropriate sources to establish notability in either English or Japanese. CBS527^Talk 17:37, 5 April 2017 (UTC)[reply]

NOTE - I have struck through my previous concern about the Japanese article appearing to be about a different person based on Curly Turkey translation below, I am satisfied that it is the same person. CBS527^Talk 03:54, 7 April 2017 (UTC)[reply]

I believe jp:飯尾連龍 is Iio Tsuratatsu, the husband listed in our English article of Iio Tazu. I believe this to be correct because I took the Japanese characters listed in the English article for Iio Tsuratatsu, specifically "飯尾連竜" and entered them into the Japanese Wikipedia search engine [1] and jp:飯尾連龍 came up, and the date of death is within one year. I think it is the same person. --David Tornheim (talk) 17:56, 5 April 2017 (UTC)[reply]

This article is about Iio Tazu (aka Otatsu no Kata). The Japanese article jp:お田鶴の方 (Towards Tazuru) whose spouse is listed as jp:飯尾連竜 (Riaqno Iioo). His article also lists her as his spouse as well. The subject of this AFD is Iio Tazu and the subject's husband is listed as Iio Tsuratatsu. CBS527^Talk 21:20, 5 April 2017 (UTC)[reply]

The Japanese article gives the pronunciation of jp:飯尾連竜 as Inō Tsuratatsu. His father ja:飯尾乗連 is also given as Inō. The article for the clan ja:飯尾氏 gives three pronunciations: Iinō, Inō, and Iio—it doesn't indicate whether you could use any pronunciation, or whether different branches used different pronunciations, or whatever. Curly "JFC" Turkey 🍁 ¡gobble! 00:33, 6 April 2017 (UTC)[reply]

Thank you very much, Curly Turkey ! That clears up the doubt I had. CBS527^Talk 03:18, 7 April 2017 (UTC)[reply]

KEEP per [2] (added 00:32, 6 April 2017 (UTC)) and possibly per Japanese article (jp:お田鶴の方) and her husband's article (jp:飯尾連龍). I believe it is the correct husband based on the date of death. If someone speaking Japanese could look into this, that would help. I think I know who to ask. --David Tornheim (talk) 17:47, 5 April 2017 (UTC)[reply]

Ping to @Hijiri88: You can read Japanese, right? Can you help us figure this out? There are some questions about what the corresponding Japanese articles are and whether there is sufficient WP:RS in Japanese or elsewhere to justify the article (and probably also the husband's article too). --David Tornheim (talk) 18:06, 5 April 2017 (UTC)[reply]

Good idea! Although we can't use Wikipedia articles to establish notability, the article may lead to some valid sources. CBS527^Talk 21:20, 5 April 2017 (UTC)[reply]

Relisted to generate a more thorough discussion and clearer consensus.
Relisting comment: Relisting this for a third time because of complicated sourcing/language issues
Please add new comments below this notice. Thanks, -- Patar knight - ^chat/_{contributions} 18:40, 5 April 2017 (UTC)[reply]

Ping to @Curly Turkey: It is my understanding you read Japanese. Can you help us figure this out? If not, can you refer us to someone else who might be qualified? There are some questions about what the corresponding Japanese articles are and whether there is sufficient WP:RS in Japanese or elsewhere to justify the article (and probably also the husband's article too). --David Tornheim (talk) 23:28, 5 April 2017 (UTC)[reply]

A lot of the sources are in classical Japanese (of which I have only rudimentary skills) or even kanbun (which I've never tried learning), so it's hard for me to assess, but I'd be very surprised if she didn't pass notability, based on what I do see. A lot of the sources are print-only. I live in Shizuoka (the modern prefecture where she lived), so I'd probably be able to get hold of a lot of them. The problem is motivation ...

I'll tell you what. I'm going to the library tomorrow anyways, so I'll take a look for a couple of sources I can handle to add to the article to save it from deletion. I'd say she most likely has listings in a couple of dictionaries of historical figures at least. I doubt I'll have the motivation to put much more work than that into it, though. Curly "JFC" Turkey 🍁 ¡gobble! 00:18, 6 April 2017 (UTC)[reply]

Thank you! Perhaps, the IP editor who created the article will be at the library too? :) --David Tornheim (talk) 00:28, 6 April 2017 (UTC)[reply]

UPDATE: I'm gonna have to apologize, but it's absolutely pissing rain today, so I'm skipping stopping by the library. I'll probably go next Thursday. Curly "JFC" Turkey 🍁 ¡gobble! 23:04, 6 April 2017 (UTC)[reply]

FYI. I left this note on the originating IP's talk page and a similar note on another IP that also edited similar articles. Seems like that IP made a bunch of articles like this one with insufficient sourcing. --David Tornheim (talk) 23:40, 5 April 2017 (UTC)[reply]

Comment - I also requested Bueller 007 who is fluent in Japanese and English to translate the "お田鶴の方". article, which seems to be fairly well sourced, to see if it the same person and if it could be useful for this AFD. I asked for him to respond here. CBS527^Talk 01:19, 6 April 2017 (UTC)[reply]
Comment: Even if notability has been established, the article would need a complete overhaul (could potentially be nuked) to ensure copyright compliance. RoCo^(talk) 07:45, 6 April 2017 (UTC)[reply]

The above discussion is preserved as an archive of the debate. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this page.

Sorry, folks! I grabbed a book from the library, and then forget to get to this. I guess the article as-is should be deleted anyways due the the copyvio, and it should be at a different title anyways. I'll created an article at Otazu no Kata. Curly "JFC" Turkey 🍁 ¡gobble! 21:30, 15 April 2017 (UTC)[reply]

@Curly Turkey: Thanks again for your help. I was wondering what happened. Could you please ping me at the talk page of the article when it gets created so I can watchlist it? --David Tornheim (talk) 21:40, 15 April 2017 (UTC)[reply]