Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Hussain Ali Nasayyif

The following discussion is an archived debate of the proposed deletion of the article below. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this page.

The result was delete‎. Extraordinary Writ (talk) 22:50, 1 February 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Hussain Ali Nasayyif[edit]

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ZERO SIGCOV found. All sources present in the article as well as from Google, the NYT, AP, JSTOR, and TWL bring up no significant coverage. Though he did meet NATH, such SIGCOV is unable to be found – calling it a GNG fail. InvadingInvader (userpage, talk) 04:50, 10 January 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Note: This discussion has been included in the deletion sorting lists for the following topics: Sportspeople, Olympics, and Iraq. InvadingInvader (userpage, talk) 04:50, 10 January 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Keep, I added the subject's native names to the article. It looks like there are SIGCOV matches in the Al-Riyadih newspaper archive, for example see p. 22 here has exact match for his Arabic name Arabic: حسين علي نصيف. This demonstrates significant coverage in durable media, meeting WP:SPORTCRIT. --Habst (talk) 14:43, 11 January 2024 (UTC)[reply]

It looks my "share" link did not go to the proper edition of the newspaper, a more precise link with the name highlighted is here. It has his full name in prose surrounded by athletics imagery, during the time when he was most active. --Habst (talk) 21:52, 11 January 2024 (UTC)[reply]

This is just a routine recap of Islamic Sports Championship results for multiple athletes and events. The start of that section says The context matches resulted in the following results, which we list here:. The one sentence mentioning him just notes that he was first in the 500-meter race and Fahim Abdel Sada was second; every other sentence in that list has the same format (e.g. "سياق ١١١‏ متر مواتع الاول حبار رحيمه والوقت /ار5١‏ ثانية والثاني زهير جبر والوقت كن؟١‏" is Context: 111 meters. The first is Hibar Rahima and the time is 51 seconds. The second is Zuhair Jabr and the time was...) This is not SIGCOV. @BeanieFan11 JoelleJay (talk) 19:08, 23 January 2024 (UTC)[reply]

@JoelleJay, thank you for your research. Could you please share your source for the translation, or say if it was translated by you? I tried to machine translate the article, but I could not do it because of the OCR. The fact that Ali Nasayyif ran a 500 metres race is interesting to me, as that distance is quite rare in athletics especially outdoors. It may also be another avenue for SIGCOV research. I'm also not sure what "111 metres" means in this context, but it may not be related to Nasayyif. --Habst (talk) 19:20, 23 January 2024 (UTC)[reply]

You can copy the text surrounding a hit and paste it into Google Translate. I just searched that page for all mentions of "الاول" ("first" as in "first place"), which I noticed was in every sentence. Non-standard distances are common in domestic tournaments, athletes will just run whichever distance is closest to their "usual" when competing internationally, it's nothing interesting. The 111 meters quote does not mention Nasayyif, it's just an example of the trivial coverage each of those results bits contains. I used it because the translation was slightly better. The one for Nasayyif says The first 500 MT race is Hussein Ali Nassif, and the time is for rent a second, and the second is Fahim Abdel Sada, and the time is for rent for a second. Not SIGCOV. JoelleJay (talk) 19:44, 23 January 2024 (UTC)[reply]

@JoelleJay, thank you. The copying isn't working at all for me, maybe it is just my browser but when I try to select text it keeps selecting text from other sections, it seems like the OCR program doesn't understand the flow of Arabic text. But when I search for just his last name حسين, I get 5 hits on page 22 alone. Is it possible he is discussed elsewhere in the article, but only addressed by last name as would be common once he is already introduced? It might be helpful to look for pronouns "he" / "him" if they are applicable in Arabic as well. --Habst (talk) 19:53, 23 January 2024 (UTC)[reply]

It just occurred to me that maybe حسين is actually the subject's first name, because Arabic is read right to left. So maybe he is addressed by that name, or maybe by pronouns. Also, considering as Iraq only sent six sprinters to the 1980 Olympics, one would expect that if even "domestic tournaments" are covered, then surely the Olympics would merit coverage from this publication, so we should search the archives from those dates. It would be helpful to have the entire article translated as well just to be sure. --Habst (talk) 19:58, 23 January 2024 (UTC)[reply]

"حسين" is just "Hussein", one of the most common given names in the world. Of course there will be more hits for that name in an Arabic newspaper... Are you selecting text from the "search inside" result snippets, or from the document itself? JoelleJay (talk) 20:23, 23 January 2024 (UTC)[reply]

@JoelleJay, thank you for your response. I think that just because a subject uses a common name, does not mean that there should be a bias against their inclusion in the encyclopedia (even if that bias is not a conscious one, but one based on the mechanics of the searching process).

I was trying to select from the document itself, if I select text from "search inside" then the only phrase I can see is the one you mentioned above, though Google translates mine with a different meaning There are 500 left, the first is Hussein Ali Nassif, and time is for rent again, and the second is Fahim Abdul Sada, and time is for rent again. --Habst (talk) 21:17, 23 January 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Are you really arguing that we should presume SIGCOV might exist, contra explicit P&Gs, on the basis that you expect any of those hits for "Hussein" elsewhere in the newspaper to be for Nassif, despite no evidence that Arabic uses a first name alone as the sole and introductory referent when a last name exists, and despite the incredibly obvious problems that would present for name-sparse cultures in particular?

You have to search for other words that appear in those entries...like the one I mentioned. JoelleJay (talk) 00:52, 24 January 2024 (UTC)[reply]

@JoelleJay, thank you for your challenge because it helps find sources for the article. I'm saying that athletes with common names deserve extra scrutiny when looking for sources, especially when they are already proven to have met WP:NATH as Ali Nasayyif does, which means that (quoting NATH), Significant coverage is likely to exist. This is following the guideline. One lead we have is we know that this Arabic Al-Riyadih publication thinks that even small domestic athletics tournaments are worth covering, including Ali Nasayyif. If that is true, then surely the Olympics / Asian games (where the subject won a medal) and the Iranian athletes there would be covered in great detail. Given that we know significant coverage is likely via NATH, a more thorough investigation is needed that would require checking the Al-Riyadih archives from those dates. --Habst (talk) 01:46, 24 January 2024 (UTC)[reply]

As I've explained in countless other AfDs, SPORTCRIT #5 requires a source of IRS SIGCOV be cited in the article, regardless of particulars like nationality, time period, "having a common first name", etc. That coverage is "likely to exist" according to NATH does not override this requirement and does not obligate us to assume coverage exists or to go beyond a standard BEFORE. The whole reason we got rid of the presumptions of notability in NSPORT in the first place was because these criteria turned out to be terrible predictors of GNG, even for contemporary athletes in English-speaking countries. JoelleJay (talk) 02:07, 24 January 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Also, I did search for Olympics coverage in Al-Riyadh and elsewhere and could not find mention of Nassif. We have the name that particular newspaper uses for him, we have its Olympics coverage of the days on which he competed archived, and we still didn't get any hits. JoelleJay (talk) 02:34, 24 January 2024 (UTC)[reply]

@JoelleJay, thank you for responding. As I explain in Special:Diff/1198405835, that section of SPORTCRIT is plainly contradictory to the rest of the guideline, and SPORTCRIT does not override the "likely to exist" statements.

Putting aside SPORTCRIT and NATH entirely, just think about the particulars of this case. We know that Ali Nasayyif competed in two events in athletics at the Olympics, which is the marquee event at the Olympics. We know that Ali Nasayyif is a continental medal-winner as he won silver at the Asian Games (which is the most prestigious athletics competition in Asia). We also know that his races were so important that even a small domestic tournament merited coverage from Al Riyadh, a dominant paper in the geographic center of Saudi Arabia, despite the fact that the subject is not even Saudi Arabian. All of these facts combined lean towards signifcant coverage being significantly likely to exist, barring a Library of Alexandria-burning situation.

@JoelleJay, if you searched for Olympics coverage in Al-Riyadh, can you please link the Olympics coverage from the webarchive, so we can search for the subject inside? I don't see how we can say that the subject is not covered in Al-Riyadh if we have not even looked at their Olympic coverage – which they have certainly done as even domestic athletics competitions have merited articles. Thank you, --Habst (talk) 11:12, 24 January 2024 (UTC)[reply]

The "likely to exist" statements were added after the RfC, to comply with the results of that RfC which said no criteria could "presume notability" anymore. This does not mean a subject for whom old criteria claim coverage is "likely to exist" does not still need to have IRS SIGCOV cited in their article.

The July 14 coverage is also of some Islamic sports tournament, not something from a single country.

Why do you think there would be any coverage whatsoever in Al Riyadh of non-Saudi athletes who barely made it to the quarterfinals? We have the newspaper edition from July 28 when the quarterfinals were held and they don't even mention the race. JoelleJay (talk) 23:00, 24 January 2024 (UTC)[reply]

@JoelleJay, thank you for your response. I don't think that no criteria could "presume notability" is a consistent position with some criteria can mean that sources are likely to exist in the context of Wikipedia policy. Furthermore, the criteria claiming that coverage is likely to exist for the subject is not old, it is current, as his Asian Games medal meets NATH regardless of any presumed notability for Olympians.

I said that the 14 July competition was domestic because I can't translate the article and I was going off what you said about it, Non-standard distances are common in domestic tournaments. If it was an Islamic sports tournament encompassing multiple countries, that could mean there is a possibility that more in-depth coverage of this competition exists. Given that we know the subject's name حسين (Hussein) appears 5 times on that page, even if one or two of the matches are for someone else who shares his name, I think it is worth looking into all the matches.

As they did in the 14 July article, I think that Al Riyadh might find it in their interest to cover athletes who their readers are familiar with, like the subject who we know was covered at least once by the paper. I wonder if we would have more luck with the 29 July edition, as I would expect the coverage to be delayed by at least a day given how newspapers are typically published. --Habst (talk) 19:51, 1 February 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Keep, per Habst. AGF on his findings (I can't read the source). BeanieFan11 (talk) 17:06, 11 January 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Relisted to generate a more thorough discussion and clearer consensus.
Please add new comments below this notice. Thanks, Sandstein 13:55, 17 January 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Delete, per lack of SIGCOV as detailed above.

JoelleJay (talk) 19:09, 23 January 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Delete: Subject lacks the necessary WP:SIGCOV from multiple independent sources. Sources are all routine game reports where the subject is mentioned briefly, not enough to meet the WP:GNG. Just because the name is common doesn't give the subject a pass from the notability guidelines. A BEFORE check didn't come up with much more than trivial mentions. Let'srun (talk) 04:29, 24 January 2024 (UTC)[reply]

@Let'srun, thank you for responding. I thought about our sources and took another look at the Al-Riyadh article snippet.

I am re-reading my translation and I see, There are 500 left, the first is Hussein Ali Nassif, and time is for rent again, and the second is Fahim Abdul Sada, and time is for rent again. Because 500 metres outdoor competitions are extremely rare in athletics, I would be more inclined to say that this is only describing the end of a race, i.e. the last 500 metres of an 800 m – implying that we haven't even translated coverage of the rest. I think there is no way that we can say that the mentions are only brief, when we have not even translated the entire article or the Olympic/Asian Games coverage of Al-Riyadh. What do you think?

P.S. I think I have mentioned this before, but I am curious about the origins of your Wikipedia username if you don't mind sharing. --Habst (talk) 11:17, 24 January 2024 (UTC)[reply]

........are you trolling us now? This is an article that describes itself as a list of results. It indeed provides a list of results in the format of "event, first place performance, second place performance", which would be exceedingly obvious if you actually performed the search for "الاول" I suggested to you earlier. You think an article with 16 paragraph-separated single sentences, each containing the word "first", is providing any SIGCOV?

And I don't know what translation tool you're using for سباق 5٠٠‏ متو الاول حسين على نصيف والزمن كراء ثانية والثاتي فاهم عبد السادة والزمن رلاء ثانية but Google says it's The first 500 MT race is Hussein Ali Nassif, and the time is for rent a second, and the second is Fahim Abdel Sada, and the time is for rent for a second. JoelleJay (talk) 22:06, 24 January 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Relisted to generate a more thorough discussion and clearer consensus.
Please add new comments below this notice. Thanks, The Wordsmith^{Talk to me} 22:12, 25 January 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Delete: BLP, Fails GNG and NBIO. Sources in article and BEFORE found nothing with WP:SIGCOV from WP:IS WP:RS addressing the subject directly and indepth. BLPs require strong sourcing.

Source eval:

Comments	Source
Name listed in match result, nothing SIGCOV	1. Hussain Ali Nasayyif at Tilastopaja (registration required)
Name listed in match result, nothing SIGCOV	2. ^ "The Guardian". 29 July 1980.
Name listed in match result, nothing SIGCOV	3. ^ Evans, Hilary; Gjerde, Arild; Heijmans, Jeroen; Mallon, Bill; et al. "Hussain Ali Nasayyif Olympic Results". Olympics at Sports-Reference.com. Sports Reference LLC. Archived from the original on 18 April 2020. Retrieved 3 August 2017.
Name listed in match result, nothing SIGCOV	4. ^ Asian Games Results. GBR Athletics. Retrieved on 2014-10-04.

Habst point has been accurately rebutted effectively by JoelleJay; other keep votes have provided nothing. BLPs require strong sourcing; if there were three sources with SIGCOV, all the words above would be unneeded. // Timothy :: talk 16:14, 1 February 2024 (UTC)[reply]

The above discussion is preserved as an archive of the debate. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this page.