Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Gladys Pearl Baker

The following discussion is an archived debate of the proposed deletion of the article below. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this page.

The result was keep. All the delete !votes are misapplying WP:BIORELATED, which says "Being related to a notable person in itself [emphasis original] confers no degree of notability upon that person". BIORELATED does not require that relatives of notable people be independently notable in respect to that notable relative. Meeting notability guidelines through reliable coverage, even if only in the context of being related to someone famous is enough to avoid deletion. The delete !votes do not address the sources at all, and their issue seems to be with BIORELATED itself. Furthermore, merging the content, some of which is unique to this article such as her portrayal in media, would be unwieldy in the Marilyn Monroe article. -- Patar knight - ^chat/_{contributions} 05:33, 28 January 2021 (UTC)[reply]

Gladys Pearl Baker[edit]

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Gladys Pearl Baker was Marilyn Monroe's mother, but not notable on her own. Most of the important details about her are already contained in Monroe's article. There is therefore no need for this article. TrueHeartSusie3 (talk) 14:10, 10 January 2021 (UTC)TrueHeartSusie3[reply]

Note: This discussion has been included in the list of Women-related deletion discussions. Spiderone 16:20, 10 January 2021 (UTC)[reply]

Note: This discussion has been included in the list of California-related deletion discussions. Spiderone 16:20, 10 January 2021 (UTC)[reply]

Note: This discussion has been included in the list of Actors and filmmakers-related deletion discussions. Spiderone 16:20, 10 January 2021 (UTC)[reply]

Keep – as per my comments on Baker Miracle's AfD here. Pearl Baker is in the same category as far as I'm concerned. A quick Google brings up a huge amount of interest in her. Not Marilyn, but her. Dutch Wiki has an even more extensive article on this person. As a media curiosity whose life was flung in the spotlight and books/articles focussed on her life, a nomination to delete based on the fact that she was a relative of somebody who was more known doesn't carry itself as a strong argument in my opinion. Thanks --Jkaharper (talk) 15:16, 11 January 2021 (UTC)[reply]

Comment: apologies, I was not aware that there had recently been a discussion on possibly deleting this article, my bad! The thing is, these types of articles tend to attract really, really shoddy writing and sourcing, as well as the type of celeb mythology that has little basis on truth (with just a quick read, I can already spot several sentences I know to be plain wrong). But perhaps in this case it's best to focus on improving the sourcing and delete the really dodgy claims rather than the entire article.TrueHeartSusie3 (talk) 20:29, 11 January 2021 (UTC)TrueHeartSusie3[reply]

Comment - The assertion that "a nomination to delete based on the fact that she was a relative of somebody who was more known doesn't carry itself as a strong argument in my opinion". My biggest issue with that statement is that Gladys Pearl Baker literally has no other claim to notability other than being the mother of Marilyn Monroe. Yes, some notable people have notable parents. Some notable people have parents that become notable after their children have become notable for something other than being their parents. But the claim to notability for a Wiki entry shouldn't be merely for being the parent of someone notable. You mentioned Jackie Stallone elsewhere. While Jackie Stallone may have initially became notable for being the mother of Sylvester Stallone, she became notable in her own right for other endeavors. Gladys Pearl Baker has only ever been notable for being Marilyn Monroe's mother. The opening paragraph first lists her as a film editor. She wasn't a notable film editor. ExRat (talk) 19:40, 18 January 2021 (UTC)[reply]

Merge I do not believe being the parent, aunt, or uncle of someone who one day became a cultural icon is notability itself on Wikipedia, as the website has policy regarding the concept of inherited notability. In that case, Ludwig van Beethoven’s, Jimi Hendrix’s, Madonna’s, Cher’s, Elvis Presley’s and even Drake’s parents articles are noticeably missing. I’m staunchly against it because it sets a bad precedence (if anyone has come across discussions of Jim and Mary McCartney you’ve seen what I’m talking about). Simply put, unless the relative has had significant coverage for reasons outside of just being related to a famous person, there is no need for it. As we can see, Mrs. Baker was not a notable film editor. Trillfendi (talk) 15:21, 13 January 2021 (UTC)[reply]

Relisted to generate a more thorough discussion and clearer consensus.
Please add new comments below this notice. Thanks, Eddie891 ^Talk _Work 17:38, 17 January 2021 (UTC)[reply]

Delete or Merge per Trillfendi's above comment. Notability is not inherited. The sole claim to notability of the subject of the article is being the mother of a notable person. ExRat (talk) 19:04, 18 January 2021 (UTC)[reply]
Delete - per WP:BIORELATED, "Being related to a notable person in itself confers no degree of notability" - does not meet WP:ANYBIO or WP:BASIC - Epinoia (talk) 16:50, 27 January 2021 (UTC)[reply]
Keep. BIORELATED doesn't exclude notability in cases where GNG is already abundantly met. It simply says there's no presumption of notability merely because of a family connection. Here we have a significant amount of RS directly detailing the subject already anchoring this page. GNG is met. IMHO the incomplete history of Marilyn's heritage makes her mother's story an essential pagespace for future development. Marilyn Monroe is a featured article, so the level of family detail in this article is unlikely be accepted for merge there if that's the outcome here. On the other hand, other similar new material is also likely to need a home, and this extant article, already well-anchored with citation from RS, will be improved by serving as a welcome subpage for such "early life" material. Subject has been portrayed in media by such actresses as Phyllis Coates, Betty Lou Holland, Sheree North, and Susan Sarandon. Bernadette Peters as "Gladys" sang solos on a Broadway stage. This isn't close. BusterD (talk) 19:26, 27 January 2021 (UTC)[reply]

The above discussion is preserved as an archive of the debate. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this page.