Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Disney family

The following discussion is an archived debate of the proposed deletion of the article below. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this page.

The result was keep. Consensus that WP:SIGCOV is met, especially following Cunard's input. (non-admin closure) feminist (talk) 03:43, 1 February 2020 (UTC)[reply]

Disney family[edit]

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Nominating this on the basis of TNT because it needs to be blown up. It's all fan cruft/original research, as we know geni, ancestry etc...rely on user submissions and cannot be used to establish reliable fact. This has spun so far out of control that I can't see how it can possibly or reasonably be saved and there's no good history to revert to because the several thousand edits have been inundated by socks. It is so far beyond anything we could consider encyclopedic and is just a giant pile of WP:NOR. Praxidicae (talk) 21:02, 17 January 2020 (UTC)[reply]

Keep and tag anything needing sourcing. Eventually it will be reduced to what can be reliably sourced. BD2412 T 23:58, 17 January 2020 (UTC)[reply]
- In the ten years it's existed no one has bothered to add actual reliable sources, it's all synthesis and unsourced cruft and afaict, there's no sources talking about the lineage as we display it in this article. And here is what it would look like if I removed the unsourced or improperly sourced cruft. It becomes a list of people with the name Disney. Praxidicae (talk) 13:25, 18 January 2020 (UTC)[reply]

Note: This discussion has been included in the list of Lists of people-related deletion discussions. Coolabahapple (talk) 09:35, 19 January 2020 (UTC)[reply]

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Delete this just needs to be scrapped. No sign that this unit is really notable. Wikipedia is not a place for posting geneological tables.John Pack Lambert (talk) 23:13, 20 January 2020 (UTC)[reply]
Weak keep -- If we were dealing with something similar as a category at CFD, I would say that we have enough connected people with articles to allow retention. I do not see how a list article differs from that. There may well be a case for pruning it of NN content, but how the various Disneys were related is surely worth having. Peterkingiron (talk) 13:44, 22 January 2020 (UTC)[reply]

Note: This discussion has been included in the Article Rescue Squadron's list of content for rescue consideration. ミラ P 21:35, 23 January 2020 (UTC)[reply]

Relisted to generate a more thorough discussion and clearer consensus.
Relisting comment: Relisting this one to see what others have to say. Is this not appropriate for Wikipedia? Is there room for a cohesive article about the "Disney family" as a whole with breakouts to their appropriate notable family members? Think Medici family.
Please add new comments below this notice. Thanks, Missvain (talk) 15:53, 24 January 2020 (UTC)[reply]

KEEP Disney_family#Family_tree There are nine blue links. Seems like a valid list article to me. Category:Family trees shows there are just a massive number of articles like this. Sometimes articles have room to show the family tree information in them, and sometimes its split off into a spin off article. Are there any government websites that list information which can be used for a reference for everyone listed? Or does the Disney company have this listed anywhere? Dream Focus 16:36, 24 January 2020 (UTC)[reply]
Comment The only people who appear to be notable are Walt and Roy Disney. Other blue links include their parents (notability is not inherited) and descendants who got jobs and foundation gigs because of nepotism. Not sure how I feel about the article's notability or whether it should be merged into something like the Walt Disney article.Sandals1 (talk) 17:57, 24 January 2020 (UTC)[reply]
They were notable enough by Wikipedia standards to have their own articles. Dream Focus 18:23, 24 January 2020 (UTC)[reply]
Delete per WP:NOTGENEOLOGY. They don't get discussed much as a family, as it's really just the one generation/two brothers that's really notable. They're not the Rothschilds or the Kennedys. Clarityfiend (talk) 09:41, 25 January 2020 (UTC)[reply]
KEEPThere is another film person of note (not yet added to the page, I think): Melissa Disney. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 72.217.111.126 (talk) 17:43, 25 January 2020 (UTC)[reply]

Melissa Disney's article says "she has often claimed to be a distant relative of American film producer and businessman Walt Disney". That doesn't sound like there's a reliable source to back that up, except for her own word. -- Toughpigs (talk) 18:22, 25 January 2020 (UTC)[reply]

Delete WP is not a genealogy service; there is no evidence all the relatives or even the siblings are notable or that the extended family is a whole is notable, even if more verifiably sourced. Should be easy enough to discuss the relationship among the few notable members elsewhere. Reywas92^Talk 00:51, 26 January 2020 (UTC)[reply]
Keep Notable subject (even has its own book by the looks of things). Given current members of the Disney family are still worthy of their own blue links, this should remain. It needs work, certainly, and additional referencing, but that's not a reason to delete. - SchroCat (talk) 09:55, 26 January 2020 (UTC)[reply]
Ummm that's apparently a self-published book and certainly does not contribute to notability. If you want to TNT the page and write an actual article with prose, that may be fine, but this is not a reason to keep a mere family tree of mostly non-notable people. Reywas92^Talk 21:50, 26 January 2020 (UTC)[reply]
Delete as per WP:NOTGENEOLOGY. The vast majority of these people just are not notable.--Rusf10 (talk) 00:54, 28 January 2020 (UTC)[reply]
Delete - I agree that WP is WP:NOTGENEOLOGY. There already are articles on the notable people from this family. WP is not a repository of geneological research - there are many resources on the net that can be used for that. Netherzone (talk) 21:08, 28 January 2020 (UTC)[reply]

Keep per the significant coverage in multiple independent reliable sources.

Krasniewicz, Louise (2010). Walt Disney: A Biography. Santa Barbara, California: Greenwood Publishing Group. ISBN 978-0-313-35830-2. Retrieved 2020-01-29.
Mosley, Leonard (1990) [1985]. Disney's World. Lanham, Maryland: Stein and Day. ISBN 978-0-8128-8514-9. Retrieved 2020-01-29.
Gabler, Neal (2006). Walt Disney: The Triumph of the American Imagination. New York: Vintage Books. ISBN 978-0-679-75747-4. Retrieved 2020-01-29.
Robb, Brian J. (2014). A Brief History of Walt Disney. London: Constable & Robinson. ISBN 978-0-7624-5475-4. Retrieved 2020-01-29.
Prescott, Viviann Permelia (1993). Prescott: A History of the McCaffree & Prescott Family, in Three Parts. Portsmouth, New Hampshire: Peter E. Randall Publisher. p. 359. ISBN 9789993289685. Retrieved 2020-01-29.
Cole, Michael D. (1996). Walt Disney: Creator of Mickey Mouse. Springfield, New Jersey: Enslow Publishing. pp. 8–9. ISBN 0-89490-694-1. Retrieved 2020-01-29.
Barrier, Michael (2007). The Animated Man. Berkeley: University of California Press. pp. 12–13. ISBN 978-0-520-24117-6. Retrieved 2020-01-29.
Clark, James C. (2000). 200 Quick Looks at Florida History. Sarasota, Florida: Pineapple Press. p. 92. ISBN 978-1-56164-200-7. Retrieved 2020-01-29.

Sources with quotes

Krasniewicz, Louise (2010). Walt Disney: A Biography. Santa Barbara, California: Greenwood Publishing Group. ISBN 978-0-313-35830-2. Retrieved 2020-01-29.
The book notes on page xxv:
Timeline: Events in the Life of Walt Disney

1801: Arundel Elias Disney
1834: Kepple Disney, Walt's grandfather, is born.
1836: Arundel Disney and family emigrate to New York.
1858: Kepple Disney marries Mary Richardson.
1859: Kepple and Mary have a son, Elias, Walt's father.
1888: Elias marries Flora Call and they settle in central Florida. Son Herbert is born.
1890: Elias moves his family to Chiago, works as a carpenter at the World's Fair. Son Raymond is born.
1893: Son Roy O. Disney is born.
December 5, 1901: Walter Elias Disney born.
1903: Daughter Ruth is born.
The rest of the book discusses Walt Disney's family in detail.
Mosley, Leonard (1990) [1985]. Disney's World. Lanham, Maryland: Stein and Day. ISBN 978-0-8128-8514-9. Retrieved 2020-01-29.
The book discusses the origins of the Disney family:
On the other hand, like many Englishmen who boast that their ancestors "came over with William the Conqueror," Walt Disney could legitimately claim he had Norman forebears, too. Generations ago, his ancestors were French peasants who originally came from the Norman cheese-making town of Isigny, through whose winding streets GIs of the U.S. Army fought during World War II. His family was named after their place of residence.
In 1066, a date known to every English schoolboy as the year his country was conquered by the French, several members of the d'Isigny family swarmed across the English Channel as part of the invading army of William of Normandy. When William ascended the English throne, his mercenaries, including Jean-Christophe d'Isigny and several others of the same clan, were encouraged to settle in the conquered territories, and they were given title to the English lands and properties. They married English women, and, anglicizing their name from d'Isigny to Disney, they became rich and prosperous English gentry, although one of them ended up as a disreputable, corrupt, and womanizing lord high sheriff of London. In the seventeenth century, the family made the mistake of supporting the Duke of Monmouth's rebellion against King James II. The heads of the family were ordered arrested and incarcerated in the Tower of London, and their lands were confiscated by the crown.
The book notes on page 24:
The early records of the Disney family confirm that they were, on the whole, an amoral and easygoing lot, much given to dancing, drinking, and periodical hell-raising.
The chapter then continues to discuss the Disney family.
Gabler, Neal (2006). Walt Disney: The Triumph of the American Imagination. New York: Vintage Books. ISBN 978-0-679-75747-4. Retrieved 2020-01-29.
The book notes:
... The Disneys claimed to trace their lineage to the d'Isignys of Normandy, who had arrived in England with William the Conqueror and fought at the Battle of Hastings. During the English Restoration in the late seventeenth century, a branch of the family, Protestants, moved to Ireland, settling in County Kilkenny, where Elias Disney would later boast, a Disney was "classed among the intellectual and well-to-do of his time and age." But the Disneys were also ambitious and opportunistic, always searching for a better life. In July 1834, a full decade before the potato famine that would trigger mass migrations, Arundel Elias Disney, Elias Disney's grandfather, sold his holdings, took his wife and two young children to Liverpool, and set out for American aboard the New Jersey with his older brother Robert and Robert's wife and their two children.
They had intended to settle in America, but Arundel Elias did not stay there long. The next year he moved to the township of Goderich in the wilderness of southwestern Ontario, Canada, just off Lake Huron, and bought 149 acres along the Maitland River. In time Arundel Elias built the area's first grist mill and a sawmill, farmed his land, and fathered sixteen children—eight boys and eight girls. In 1858 the eldest of them, twenty-five-year-old Kepple, who had come on the boat with his parents, married another Irish immigrant named Mary Richardson and moved just north of Goderich to Bluevale in Morris Township, where he bought 100 acres of land and built a small pine cabin. There his first son, Elias, was born on February 6, 1859.
Though he cleared the stony land and planted orchards, Kepple Disney was a Disney, with airs and dreams, and not the kind of man inclined to stay on a farm forever. ...
Robb, Brian J. (2014). A Brief History of Walt Disney. London: Constable & Robinson. ISBN 978-0-7624-5475-4. Retrieved 2020-01-29.
The book notes:
Disney's great-grandfather, Arundel Elias Disney, had been born in Gowran, County Kilkenny, Ireland, a full century earlier in 1801. He claimed ancestry back to Frenchman Robert D'Isigny of D'Isigny-sur-Mer on the coast of Normandy in 1066, although later researchers could find no definite family connections going back that far. The D'Isigny family name was soon anglicized to 'Disney', and became the name of their village of Norton Disney, south of the City of Lincoln. The family branched out to Ireland and then, with the emigration of Arundel and his brother Robert and their families, to the United States. They arrived in New York on 3 October 1834 and went their separate ways, with Robert heading to the Midwest to take up farming and Arundel heading north to the Goderich township in Ontario, Canada.
The North American gold rush of the late 1800s brought Arundel's son Kepple Disney and his grandson Elias Disney (the oldest of Kepple's eleven children) back to the United States, heading for the California gold fields. En route, convinced that land was perhaps a more sounds investment than panning for gold, Kepple bought 200 acres of Union Pacific Railroad land near Ellis, Kansas, and established a farm. Farm life didn't suit young Elias and he spent some time working on the railroad, before returning to the Kansas family farm thanks to the attractive charms of their near neighbour, Flora Call.
Flora's family, of Scottish and English descent, had also pursued the riches promised by the gold rush, only – like the Disneys – to end up as Kansas farmers and landowners, a much more reliable lifestyle. Neither family liked the Kansas weather, however, so the Disney and the Call families moved together to Florida in 1884, where Elias bought a forty-acre farm and Flora became a schoolteacher. The pair finally married on New Year's Day in 1888 at Flora's parents' home in Acron, Florida (just forty miles from the eventual site of the Walt Disney World Resort). Elias Disney was twenty-eight and Flora Call was just nineteen.
Prescott, Viviann Permelia (1993). Prescott: A History of the McCaffree & Prescott Family, in Three Parts. Portsmouth, New Hampshire: Peter E. Randall Publisher. p. 359. ISBN 9789993289685. Retrieved 2020-01-29.
The book notes:
In 1801 Arundel Elias Disney went from Normandy, France to Canada. His son was Kepple Disney who married Mary Richardson born in Ireland. They had eleven children, one son being Elias Disney born in Canada. In 1888 Elias Disney married a Scottish lass named Flora Call AKA McCall or McCally who was born in Ohio. Her father, Charles Call, son of Eber Call, moved to Kansas in 1879 then he moved to Florida in 1884. It was in Florida that Elias and Flora met and they were married in Akron, Florida on January 1, 1888. Elias was associated with the Congressional Church and the Florida Militia. During his life he resided in Kansas, Florida, Illinois, and Missouri.
Elias Disney was a building contractor, and it is said that he built his family's first home. Flora became a school teacher in their little town. Their four sons and one daughter were:
1. Herbert Disney born December 8, 1888. He ran away from home as a youth.
2. Raymond Arnold Disney born December 30, 1890. He also ran away from home early, perhaps with his brother Herbert.
3. Roy Oliver Disney born June 24, 1893 married Edna — and they had a son, Roy Edward Disney. He served in the Navy during World War I.
4. Walter “Walt” Disney born May 12, 1901, married Lillian —, and they had two daughters, Sharon and Diane.
5. Ruth Disney born 1903.
Cole, Michael D. (1996). Walt Disney: Creator of Mickey Mouse. Springfield, New Jersey: Enslow Publishing. pp. 8–9. ISBN 0-89490-694-1. Retrieved 2020-01-29.
The book notes:
"Pa always had ants in his pants," said Walt Disney's brother Roy about their father Elias Disney. "He could never stay in one place long enough to warm a seat."
Elias Disney had already lived in Kansas, Colorado, and Missouri before any of his children were born. He had worked as a carpenter on the railroad line and as a mail carrier. He had bought and sold an orange grove in Florida, and had even panned—unsuccessfully—for gold in California.
While in Florida, Elias married a young woman named Flora Call on New Year's Day, 1888. Later the couple had their first son, Herbert. After selling the orange grove, Elias moved the family to Chicago, Illinois. There, he went into business as a carpenter and home builder in the expanding midwestern city. With a steady income, Elias had little trouble supporting a growing family, which soon included sons Raymond and Roy.
Barrier, Michael (2007). The Animated Man. Berkeley: University of California Press. pp. 12–13. ISBN 978-0-520-24117-6. Retrieved 2020-01-29.
The book notes:
Elias was a Canadian, born in rural Ontario in 1859. He was the eldest of the eleven children of Kepple Disney and his wife, Mary Richardson, both of whom had immigrated to Canada from Ireland as children, with their parents. Kepple and Mary lived after their marriage on a farm about a mile from the village of Bluevale. Official Disney biographies suggest that the Disney name is a corruption of a French original, and that the first Disneys came to England in the eleventh century with the Norman invaders, but, as traced through census records, the family tree's roots dwindle to invisibility in eighteenth-century Ireland.
Kepple Disney and his family moved to a farm at Ellis, Kansas, in 1878, and it was from there that Elias moved to Florida and undertook his failed venture as an orange grower. In Florida on January 1, 1888, he married Flora Call, sixth of eight daughters (there were two sons) in a family he had known in Kansas. Flora, born in 1868, was nine years Elias's junior.
Clark, James C. (2000). 200 Quick Looks at Florida History. Sarasota, Florida: Pineapple Press. p. 92. ISBN 978-1-56164-200-7. Retrieved 2020-01-29.
The book notes:
But while central Florida more than fulfilled Walt Disney's dream, it was a nightmare for his father and grandfather. Kepple Disney and his son Elias were Canadians who immigrated to the United States. They wanted to go to California but ended up in Kansas. Elias Disney was disappointed, but it was in Kansas that he met the Call family. Flora Call was about Elias's age and he fell in love. When the Call family announced that they were moving to Florida in 1884, Elias and Elias's father decided to go along. The rest of the Disney family soon followed.

There is sufficient coverage in reliable sources to allow the Disney family to pass Wikipedia:Notability#General notability guideline, which requires "significant coverage in reliable sources that are independent of the subject".

Cunard (talk) 09:51, 29 January 2020 (UTC)[reply]

The Disney family has been covered in detail in multiple books. The Wikipedia article can be significantly improved to address the WP:NOTGENEALOGY and Wikipedia:No original research concerns. I support retention because I find there to be sufficient reliably sourced material already in the article (including citations from two Los Angeles Times articles and one from a The New York Times article) to make it worth keeping.
Cunard (talk) 09:51, 29 January 2020 (UTC)[reply]

Keep per Cunard's research. That info is mostly about the family in the context of Walt's biography, and without him this subject wouldn't be notable, but this could be treated as a spinoff article. It can be improved rather than deleted. -- Toughpigs (talk) 14:59, 29 January 2020 (UTC)[reply]
Keep per Cunard's research. Additionally this is information that can aid in further research. We should always think of our readers. Lightburst (talk) 18:27, 31 January 2020 (UTC)[reply]
Keep and wow, at first glance I thought that might just be a refbomb, but opening the collapse box provides some very articulate explaining of the material in the sources. Thank you, Cunard for going that extra mile and putting together such a coherent, well-explained argument! I wasn't going to participate in this at first, but that argument definitely swings me to say that this should stay. I don't oppose the TNT and have no objections whatsoever to a complete overhaul, but AfD consensus isn't needed for that. Someone's initiative is. This article isn't so bad that outright deletion is needed before being restored like some others out there. -2pou (talk) 18:49, 31 January 2020 (UTC)[reply]

The above discussion is preserved as an archive of the debate. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this page.