Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Diiriye Guure

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The following discussion is an archived debate of the proposed deletion of the article below. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this page.

The result was delete. Doczilla @SUPERHEROLOGIST 23:25, 19 December 2021 (UTC)[reply]

Diiriye Guure[edit]

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Diiriye Guure (edit | talk | history | protect | delete | links | watch | logs | views) – (View log | edits since nomination)
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Most of the content in the article does not even cover who this Diiriye Guure is, and what he has done etc. Below is an inspection of all listed citations used in the article, in each instance the source either gives him a passing mention or fails to mention Diiriye Guure at all. The article tries to claim much bigger impact and importance than really exists, and the citations do not support the material, but have been added to puff up the article.

1 Only gives him a passing mention, listed among other senior Dervish leaders and commanders Haji Sudi and Deria Arale.

2 Likewise only mentions that him, along with other Dervish leaders like Deria Arale, Haji Sudi among others. An important thing to note is that the source is cited for this part: "Diiriye Guure (also spelled Deeria Goori or Deria Gure) was the 16th Garad of the Dhulbahante Garadate, who as Darawiish Garad was sought by British colonial administrators for apprehension via "unconditional surrender"". The source does not at all mention him as a garad nor does it mention a "Dhulbahante Garadate" at all.

3 This source does not mention this Diiriye Guure at all, yet is used for the following section: "During his tenure as successor to Garad Ali IV, thus becoming the Dhulbahante Garad, and as Dervish sultan, the Darawiish became among the most perseverant polities in the Horn of Africa during the period of the Scramble for Africa wherein European colonialists targeted Darawiish territories". Neither him nor this Garad Ali IV (who is actual mentioned in other sources) is mentioned in this source. (One thing to note is that this Garad Ali is mentioned in other sources, The Collapse of The Somali State: The Impact of the Colonial Legacy by Abdisalam M. Issa-Salwe mentions his assassination at the hand of Muhammed Abdullah Hassan at page 30.

4 This source does again give him a passing mention however does not mention him being the Dhulbahante "garad" or the "Darawiish sultan". All it does is mention that he was badly wounded at the Battle of Gunrburru and that he holds a position corresponding to the commanding Royal Engineer. While the source refers to him as well as other mentioned Dervish leaders as "heads" of their respective tribes, the source does not elaborate and a "head" is a very vague term. More on that here

5 First Footsteps in East Africa by Richard F. Burton (took the liberty to link the PDF btw) does not mention him at all, in addition to the first four paragraphs being irrelevant to this Diiriye Guure person. Most of the "Predecessors" section is unsourced as well.

6 Same source as 2, again no mention of Diiriye Guure or of Garad Ali. I tried looking far and wide (searched for "Garad", "Ali", "Garad Ali") however nothing popped up.

[7] I could not find the source for this one, which fails WP:VERIFY.

[8] This source hasn't been properly cited. After a bit of digging it turns out that the source is A Pastoral Democracy - A Study of Pastoralism and Politics Among the Northern Somali of the Horn of Africa by IM Lewis, which does not mention Diiriye Guure, nor does it mention these other two Garad Mohamed the 4th and Garad Aardheel.

[9] It was a bit hard to find the Oral poetry and Somali nationalism : the case of Sayyid Maḥammad ʻAbdille Ḥasan source. After some digging I did find a link (a few redirects are to be expected) and per usual, no mention of Diiriye Guure or this Koore-baas.

[10] Could not find the source. The blockquote fails to mention Diiriye Guure as a sultan or garad and mirrors source nr. 2.

11 No mention of Diiriye Guure, same source I discussed at nr. 3.

[12] Same as 9.

[13] There is no link for GUDBAN (GAAL-LEGED); Diiwaanka Gabayadii Sayid Maxamed Cabdulle Xasan, which fails WP:VERIFY. After a bit of digging I found the actual poem, which fails to mention Diiriye Guure.

[14] Again, no link for this one. I found the link to the actual poem which again fails to mention Diiriye Guure.

[15] Could not find this source, which fails WP:VERIFY.

[16] It was a bit hard to find this one. I did however find what seems to be the cited source in an online newspaper, which again fails to mention Diiriye Guure as well as his supposed younger brother "Maxmud Guure".

[17] Could not find this source, which fails WP:VERIFY

[18] Identical to [4].

[19] I looked through this source here and again, no mention of Diiriye Guure. No relevance to the subject either.

[20] No mention of Diiriye Guure nor is it relevant to the subject.

[21] No mention of Diiriye Guure nor is it relevant to the subject.

22 No mention of Diiriye Guure nor is it relevant to the subject.

This proves that this article fails WP:SIGCOV in reliable sources. This article also fails WP:SYNTH, WP:GNG, WP:VERIFY, WP:NOR, WP:BASIC, and WP:NPOL, and judging by all this evidence the article could also qualify to be a hoax. Dabaqabad (talk) 18:23, 11 December 2021 (UTC)[reply]

@Heesxiisolehh:, I see no reason why that is worth noting at all. Eggishorn (talk) (contrib) 07:44, 12 December 2021 (UTC)[reply]
  • Keep, treat it like a similar article. According to some sources listed, I could not find any word for "Diiriye Guure". However, I were not able to fully check some of the references because they were books but did not have page numbers marked on them. When the page number is provided, I will check again for references that I have. Also, Somali names are sometimes spelled differently, so if the name is spelled something other than "Diiriye Guure," Please also indicate the spelling in which it is written. If this point is not improved, it cannot be verified, so deletion on the grounds of notability is considered appropriate.--Freetrashbox (talk) 01:14, 12 December 2021 (UTC)[reply]
    • this Evening Express source spells it as "Deeria Goori", this source as "deria gure", this source as "diiriye guure", so there's not exactly one spelling. In this source the title given to Guure in the Evening Express source, (i.e. as head of Dhulbahante tribe), is coalesced as encompassing the Dervish movement as well (see statement "all the Dervishes ... all the Dolbahanta ... we are a government, we have a Sultan") in the Dervish proclamation of independence letter. Since this proclamation of independence letter was written in 1899, during Diiriye Guure's era, plus the Dhulbahante and Dervishes having a shared sultan hence arguably increases the profile of the Dhulbahante monarchical position, thus by extension, also increases the profile of Diiriye Guure. Heesxiisolehh (talk) 02:23, 12 December 2021 (UTC)[reply]
      • Thank you for the reply. I can confirm through several references that this person does exist. "Evening Express" states that he is the third leader of Mullah's Army, suggesting that he is an important figure, but we do not know if he is the Garad of Dhulbahante. Sorry, I do not have the book "Taariikhdii daraawiishta..." He is only mentioned in the "Official History of the Operations..." as Mullah's third subordinate. Therefore, I think there is Notability, but I don't think it meets the requirements of WP:PAGEDECIDE. I think it would be better to redirect to Mohammed Abdullah Hassan.--Freetrashbox (talk) 02:51, 12 December 2021 (UTC)[reply]
        • @Freetrashbox: Evening Express says the men hitherto mentioned are "the heads of their respective tribes". So do you accept from the Evening Express source that Guure is the head of the Dhulbahante tribe? Heesxiisolehh (talk) 03:47, 12 December 2021 (UTC)[reply]
Whatever the claimed positions, WP:N requires significant coverage in reliable independent sources. The sources presented here and in the article are either not reliable (e.g., Evening Express) or not significant (the multiple passing mentions or mere inclusion on lists). Eggishorn (talk) (contrib) 07:44, 12 December 2021 (UTC)[reply]
@Eggishorn: Usually I would agree wholeheartedly with your statement, but at the time in the 1900s there was a media censorship of the Nugaal region (see Las_Anod#Media), which makes any news that comes out all the more substantial. Heesxiisolehh (talk) 13:46, 12 December 2021 (UTC)[reply]
  • I think it should be treated the same as Deria Arale, who is also Mullah's subordinate. I think it to be a redirect would be appropriate, but from what I can see there are many articles of similar amount of text on Horn of Africa. However, we need to fix the article using only sources that directly mention Diiriye Guure.--Freetrashbox (talk) 09:00, 12 December 2021 (UTC)[reply]
  • @Dabaqabad: Most of the article Deria Arale seems to have been written by you, what do you think the difference between Delia Arale and Diiriye Guure? Diiriye Guure is also mentioned as "Delia Gure" in your article. And Diiriye Guure is at least described in the books Somalia: A Chronology of Historical Documents 1827-2000 and Official history of the operations in Somaliland that you listed as "reliable sources" in the article. I don't think there is much difference between the two in terms of their importance or the information that is left. Why do you think that only Diiriye Guure's article deserves to be deleted?--Freetrashbox (talk) 11:00, 13 December 2021 (UTC)[reply]
@Freetrashbox:, please see WP:WHATABOUTX, one of the Arguments to avoid in deletion discussions. The existence or lack of "similar" articles is not controlling of the discussion of this article. If you think that Deria Arale is truly non-notable, then a separate discussion can take place. Please be aware, however, that nominating the other article so soon after this post without a thorough source analysis and nomination statement may well be seen as WP:POINTy. I hope that helps. Eggishorn (talk) (contrib) 16:38, 13 December 2021 (UTC)[reply]
@Eggishorn: Thanks for your advice. Of course, we don't need to consider the balance with other articles in this discussion. However, Dabaqabad's actions seem to be using Afd as a means to win over his debating opponent (Heesxiisolehh). The article Diiriye Guure was not created by Heesxiisolehh, is involved in an unrelated conflict. I would like Dabaqabad to explain this is not the such case.--Freetrashbox (talk) 20:30, 13 December 2021 (UTC)[reply]
  • Delete The article is flawed and erroneous with false claims and many non existent references which fail to meet WP:VERIFY. No mention of him being the overall garad/sultan of dervishes in any of the sources, author is passing own narrative misguiding readers by falsifying sources, but when each source is examined it either does not mention subject or support authors claims, example here were he is not even mentioned [4], also here not mentioned [5] . another source here [6] which is non existent and fails to meet WP:VERIFY again no mention of Diiriye guure [7]]. Creator of Afd has already discredited majority if not all of the references and sources for this article, therefore it should a Delete.Hawkers994 (talk) 08:22, 12 December 2021 (UTC)[reply]
  • Comment If he was a real Garad of the Dhulbahante Garadate, he may pass WP:NPOL because Garad is a Political faction based on monarchy. However sources didn't support. VocalIndia (talk) 09:48, 12 December 2021 (UTC)[reply]
Sultan of the Darawiish? Sultan is used as the title of certain rulers who claimed almost full sovereignty in practical terms. VocalIndia (talk) 17:40, 13 December 2021 (UTC)[reply]
I've added the tag "arguably", since the 3 May 1899 letter coalesces the Dervish and Dhulbahante sultan, although the letter also supposes a Triumvirate. Heesxiisolehh (talk) 03:55, 14 December 2021 (UTC)[reply]
  • Delete As detailed above, no evidence of notability and no mentions in reliable independent sources in the article. Jacob300 (talk) 23:39, 12 December 2021 (UTC)[reply]
  • Delete Many of the citations in this article are either inaccessible or do not reflect the material presented. As other editors have indicated, this article fails to meet WP:NOR, WP:GNG, and WP:VERIFY. This also appears to be a case of WP:REFBOMB with many citations only mentioning "Diiriye Guure" (and other spelling variations) in passing. Koodbuur (talk) 13:04, 17 December 2021 (UTC)[reply]
  • Keep The Evening Express source describes Diiriye Guure as the head of his tribe; a position that constitutes garad of Dhulbahante; this meets WP:NPOL requirements. The source also calls Diiirye Guure "powerful". The "Official history of ..." source by the British War Office is an expedition letter from James Sadler which begins as "The object of the expedition is to ... to put an end to his movement in the Dolbahanta"; it then states "a large coalition of the Dolbahanta against us" and its perceived as an "invasion of the Dolbahanta country". So the letter describes it as a movement in/by Diiriye Guure's tribe, the Dhulbahante. The other 3 named individuals (Mullah / Sudi / Arale) are from different tribes. Since Sadler's expedition letter ascribes kinship as relevant, and if Diiriye Guure is the only named person genealogically linked to the tribe being reprimanded, i.e. Dhulbahante, then that makes the letter collectively relevant to Diiriye Guure. Likewise, the subclans mentioned in the expedition letter, i.e. Ararsame, Barkad, baharsame, are subclans of the Farah Garad, the royal lineage of the Dhulbahante. The Ali Gheri subclan, also a Farah Garad subclan, is the only tribe mentioned with a penalty exaction as punishment. (See pages 54, 55 and 56 of this accessible file). In summary, practically the entire 11th April 1901 expedition letter in the British War Office source is a reprimand of the tribe which Diiriye Guure is head of, thus making the letter most pertinent to him. Sadler's expedition letter is also reproduced in the 1901 Parliamentary papers and by Angus Hamilton in 1911 (spelled "Deria Gure" in both). As for the Somali language "Taariikhdii ..." source, Guure is mentioned in both volumes, i.e. 1976 and 2005. Finally, the 2001 "The Scramble in the Horn ..." source has an excerpt on the Dervish proclamation of independence letter dated 3 may 1899. The letter clarifying the Dervish government intimates at Guure although indirectly by using "letter ... by ... the Dolbahanta" and "we have a Sultan" ensuingly. So in conclusion, when including the different volumes and tertiary sources, Guure is covered 7 times by name and once indirectly via his title. Although this may seem little, this is significant when you consider the contemporaneous media blackout mentioned in this paragraph. Heesxiisolehh (talk) 03:16, 18 December 2021 (UTC)[reply]
  • Keep agree per user:Heesxiisolehh. He passes WP:NPOL. VocalIndia (talk) 05:10, 18 December 2021 (UTC)[reply]
  • Delete per Dabaqabad's persuasive and in-depth reasoning. Ifnord (talk) 19:31, 19 December 2021 (UTC)[reply]
The above discussion is preserved as an archive of the debate. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this page.
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