Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Death of Omar Daraghmeh

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The following discussion is an archived debate of the proposed deletion of the article below. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this page.

The result was merge‎ to Timeline of the 2023 Israel–Hamas war. This kind of discussion leads to a no-win type of closure but I think a Merge will address both those who believe this article should be Deleted (as this page will become a Redirect after Merger) and preserve some of the content for those who argue that it should be Kept. I will say that I briefly considered closing this as a procedural Keep as there wasn't a strong, policy-based deletion rationale but given the depth and breadth of the discussion that has evolved, I think that decision would have been disruptive. Liz Read! Talk! 01:09, 7 November 2023 (UTC)[reply]

Death of Omar Daraghmeh

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Death of Omar Daraghmeh (edit | talk | history | protect | delete | links | watch | logs | views) – (View log | edits since nomination)
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This is not a lastingly significant event in this conflict, he doesn't appear to be that senior of a member of the organisation, and it's not even clear that it's actually an assassination (Hamas are blatant liars, and anything they say should be taken with a massive grain of salt). I would prefer a redirect to Timeline of the 2023 Israel–Hamas war where this is already listed. Hemiauchenia (talk) 00:22, 24 October 2023 (UTC)[reply]

  • Note: This discussion has been included in the deletion sorting lists for the following topics: Military, Terrorism, Islam, Middle East, Israel, and Palestine. Hemiauchenia (talk) 00:22, 24 October 2023 (UTC)[reply]
  • Comment — Five minutes before starting this AfD, the nominator cursed at me on this article’s talk page after I asked a simple question, which was not pinging them. Minutes later, the nominator also accused me of being a “fool” and not knowing how to edit (i.e. WP:CIR). I have absolutely no idea what brought on the personal attacks, but whatever. I would like to see other responses before I comment an !vote, given the nominator seems to be angry for some reason. The Weather Event Writer (Talk Page) 00:27, 24 October 2023 (UTC)[reply]
    • My complaints about WW's conduct are due to them placing the accusations of Hamas (who have blatantly lied during this conflict, such as denying the massacres of civilians they clearly commited) in wikivoice when this is clearly inappropriate, and then reverting with no edit summaries an attempt to correct this [1], which also re-introduced an error that WW made calling Omar the "leader of Hamas", which is just blatantly wrong. In my opinion, it displays a lack of competence to edit this contentious topic area. My tone was one of intense exasperation rather than personal venom. Hemiauchenia (talk) 00:40, 24 October 2023 (UTC)[reply]
      • (edit conflict) You still didn’t have to curse. I get what you mean, but even when I was trying to have a genuine conversation, you just weren’t civil and are still accusing me of WP:CIR style stuff. I would have proposed a WP:MUTUAL for us to both leave the article, as one, I may not have the knowledge to edit this topic and you are not editing in good faith, or at least not really showing you are. The AfD complicates that though. I would still like to propose a MUTUAL thought, i.e. we both stop editing this AfD & article and let the community figure it out. Agreed? (EC — While typing this, BD2412 proposed draftifying it, which I am not opposed to at all and would have been willing to do had you not started an AfD). The Weather Event Writer (Talk Page) 00:49, 24 October 2023 (UTC)[reply]
        • Well, if you think that "Hamas accuses Israel of assassinating senior member in prison" is enough of a reason to call the article "assassination of", and you had, in earlier versions, "On October 23, 2023, Omar Daraghmeh, the leader of Hamas was assassinated..." as if that is established fact, then, in the context of your experience here, a "JFC" is strong but not unwarranted. Drmies (talk) 01:02, 24 October 2023 (UTC)[reply]
  • Move to draft, pending development of sources indicating encyclopedic significance, rather than just interest within a news cycle. BD2412 T 00:44, 24 October 2023 (UTC)[reply]
  • Draftify — Per BD2412 The Weather Event Writer (Talk Page) 00:48, 24 October 2023 (UTC)[reply]
  • Speedy Keep per speedy keep criterion #2, brought for vexatious reasons or reasons of disruption. The rationale of WP:TOOSOON is suggested by the nominator, but the based on the nominator's documented behavior at the talk page the motive seems to be anti-POV rather than notability.
Note that minutes before nominating for deletion @Hemiauchenia blanked a number of sources here[2] with the edit summary "Reverting to the least terrible version, though whether this should be a standalone article is questionable". That edit summary, IMHO doesn't explain the edit, and the removal of sources seems to be attempt to undermine the article just before nomination.
In the alternative, draftify. Oblivy (talk) 00:53, 24 October 2023 (UTC)[reply]
I reverted to this version primarily because it accurately stated in prose what happened, Omar Daraghmeh died in prison, Hamas and PIJ claimed it was an assasssination. WW's version stated definitively that he was assassinated, which was not appropriate. If you look at the actual sources covering this, like Reuters, The Times of Israel, Al Arabiya, they're all incredibly brief, maybe 3 paragraphs at most. There just isn't much to say about this event, which reliable sources don't seem to consider that significant. Hemiauchenia (talk) 00:55, 24 October 2023 (UTC)[reply]
If the goal was genuinely to improve the article, then why not simply do that rather than nominate it for deletion just minutes after the change? And why delete sources like the BNN article? It's not a deprecated source, and it documents the arrest Oblivy (talk) 01:07, 24 October 2023 (UTC)[reply]
Oblivy I looked at that edit--what is supposed to be helpful about those sources? ReliefWeb and the UN produces primary sources, and I don't know what they add. Drmies (talk) 01:06, 24 October 2023 (UTC)[reply]
(edit conflict) Reply to this version of Hemiauchenia's reply, altered in the EC) -- I think you just confirmed Oblivy's point. My first talk page question was and I quote, "Why is “assassination” not a neutral title? Two RS sources, Al Jazeera and Reuters used it (Reuters article)}}". Nothing else. The response you responded to that started with and I quote, "Jesus fucking christ"... You aren't going after a notability reason, but rather a POV reason. That is the whole issue. Noting, I am WP:COALing out, given other editors are commenting and I think it is clear a lack of good faith is occurring. Have a good day y'all! Cheers! The Weather Event Writer (Talk Page) 01:01, 24 October 2023 (UTC)[reply]
@Drmies Agreed that the UN sources don't add much re: the article subject but they did support some of the timeline in the prior version. The BNN article documented the arrest, which is relevant to the claim of assassination. Oblivy (talk) 01:17, 24 October 2023 (UTC)[reply]
I also fail to see how this is a vexatious nomination, given that @Sj: Previously attempted to redirect the article, but was reverted by WW. It's clear that other people have concerns about the notability of this topic. Hemiauchenia (talk) 00:59, 24 October 2023 (UTC)[reply]
  • Let's go ahead and stop commenting on editors' and their possible motivations and focus on the notability of the article subject. ScottishFinnishRadish (talk) 01:03, 24 October 2023 (UTC)[reply]
    I'm happy to back away from this, but motivations are at the heart of my rationale for my speedy keep vote (and are inherent in WP:SPEEDYKEEP#2). Bad-faith deletion nominations are unhelpful to the project and deserve to be called out. Oblivy (talk) 01:11, 24 October 2023 (UTC)[reply]
    If you believe there is a behavioral issue, being it up at the proper venue. This is not the place for it. ScottishFinnishRadish (talk) 01:19, 24 October 2023 (UTC)[reply]
    Honest question: how else to invoke Speedy Keep #2? Oblivy (talk) 01:21, 24 October 2023 (UTC)[reply]
    Not by making unsubstantiated accusations at an AfD of a CTOP article. ScottishFinnishRadish (talk) 01:24, 24 October 2023 (UTC)[reply]
  • Id say redirect to the conflict but it is an implausible search term. Omar Daraghmeh could be redirected, but this is silly. Delete as completely pointless. nableezy - 01:17, 24 October 2023 (UTC)[reply]
  • I actually don't have much of an opinion; I came here because I thought that here we had another useless "Death of" article overflowing with detail about the death of someone on whom we have an article. Ima go with a weak delete, and Ima do it "per Nableezy", because they usually make a lot of sense. Drmies (talk) 01:21, 24 October 2023 (UTC)[reply]
  • Merge to the article about the war. For all the 3 lines of text that it is, we don't need to be hurling accusations and hatred at one another. Oaktree b (talk) 01:22, 24 October 2023 (UTC)[reply]
  • Draftify If the topic has sustained coverage, and esp. if the situation around the death becomes more clear, it can be moved back into mainspace.Oblivy (talk) 01:25, 24 October 2023 (UTC)[reply]
Draftify: If the content develops, its develops; if it doesn't, it doesn't. Iskandar323 (talk) 06:37, 24 October 2023 (UTC)[reply]
Delete per Drmies and Nableezy, possibly selectively merge anything of relevance to an appropriate article. WCMemail 09:05, 24 October 2023 (UTC)[reply]
Delete or merge (with sourcing review) Per above comments. RadioactiveBoulevardier (talk) 22:00, 24 October 2023 (UTC)[reply]
  • Delete or Merge per most of the above. Even if this article develops, this should be moved to the Timeline of the 2023 Israel–Hamas war per nom. 🛧Midori No Sora♪🛪 ( ☁＝☁＝✈) 06:17, 25 October 2023 (UTC)[reply]
  • Keep per WP:HEY. The problem here was that the page was created before the news had even got to it, based largely on Twitter cites. Plenty of coverage has since come out, and I've added it, while culling the tweets. Iskandar323 (talk) 10:11, 25 October 2023 (UTC)[reply]
    One sentence about his life pre-arrest and seven about his imprisonment and death barely even comes close to the "significant improvement" described by WP:HEY. The article is still a stub, and little information is given to explain why the subject is notable beyond Hamas claiming his death was an assassination, which is extremely shaky grounds for article-worthiness as it is. The Kip 16:23, 25 October 2023 (UTC)[reply]
    Deaths in custody are not a routine or mundane event, even in this conflict. Iskandar323 (talk) 17:46, 25 October 2023 (UTC)[reply]
  • Delete, non-notable. RodRabelo7 (talk) 01:54, 26 October 2023 (UTC)[reply]
  • Keep clear pass on WP:GNG with WP:SIGCOV. We keep pages about long forgotten people who died in wars and then decades later get a story or two written about them and so for consistency must keep pages like this that meet GNG. The nom's "Hamas are blatant liars" is disproven by the coverage. Mztourist (talk) 05:06, 26 October 2023 (UTC)[reply]
    Hamas have definitely flagrantly lied about the massacres in the kibbutzim, saying that no children were killed when we have actual footage of them shooting them [3] [4] That was my point. Is there previous coverage of this individual and/or coverage about what role did he serve in Hamas? Otherwise, it doesn't seem to have WP:LASTING significance. Hemiauchenia (talk) 05:34, 26 October 2023 (UTC)[reply]
  • There is significant coverage of his death now so its a pass on GNG. Whether or not this event has lasting significance can be determined in the future. Whether Hamas lied about other things is irrelevant, as SIGCOV exists of this event, from Palestinian and Israeli sources. Mztourist (talk) 07:14, 26 October 2023 (UTC)[reply]

Relisted to generate a more thorough discussion and clearer consensus.
Relisting comment: Relisting this discussion as any closure with this makeup of comments is due to be contested. I see substantial arguments to Delete, Merge or Draftify this article. Sorry to prolong this divisive discussion but any closing decision would be seen as inserting my own opinion. Also noting that during this AFD, this article has been moved to be titled Omar Daraghmeh.
Please add new comments below this notice. Thanks, Liz Read! Talk! 00:53, 31 October 2023 (UTC)[reply]

Source eval:
Comments Source
This certainly seems like SIGCOV, unless someone has an argument that this is not a WP:RS 1. Laxmi, Bijay (9 October 2023). "Prominent Hamas Leader, Omar Daraghmeh, Arrested by Israeli Forces". BNN. Retrieved 23 October 2023.
WP:IS, WP:RS, but fails WP:SIGCOV, its simply reporting a statement with one sentence 2. ^ Jump up to:a b Mughrabi, Nidal Al; Abd-Alaziz, Moaz; Adler, Leslie; McCool, Grant (23 October 2023). "Hamas accuses Israel of assassinating senior member in prison". Reuters. Archived from the original on 23 October 2023. Retrieved 23 October 2023.
WP:IS, WP:RS, but fails WP:SIGCOV, its simply reporting a statement with basic background 3. ^ Jump up to:a b c d "Hamas accuses Israel of assassinating its senior member". Al Arabiya.
WP:IS, WP:RS, but fails WP:SIGCOV, its simply reporting a statement in two sentences 4. ^ Jump up to:a b "Hamas accuses Israel of assassinating senior member in prison". Jerusalem Post.
Fails WP:IS WP:RS 5. ^ Jump up to:a b c d "Hamas: Leader in West Bank Daraghmeh 'Tortured to Death' in Israeli Prison". Palestinan Chronicle.
A one sentence bullet point. Not SIGCOV 6. ^ Jump up to:a b c d e f g h i "'Operation Al-Aqsa Flood' Day 18: Palestinian prisoner dies in Israeli custody; 32 health centers in Gaza forced out of service". Mondoweiss.
This seems like weak SIGCOV, unless someone has an argument that this is not a WP:RS 7. ^ Jump up to:a b c "Palestinian prisoners dies in Israel's jails 2 weeks into his detention". Middle East Monitor.
This seems like weak SIGCOV, unless someone has an argument that this is not a WP:RS 8. ^ "Palestinian group accuses Israel of killing senior Hamas leader in prison". Anadolu Agency.
WP:IS, WP:RS, but fails WP:SIGCOV, its two sentences 9. ^ "Palestinians protest in West Bank after Hamas official dies in Israeli custody". Time of Israel.
There does not appear to be any evidence that this will meet WP:LASTING and will fail as NOTNEWS, and no evidence that DRAFTing will improve the article with time, so trimming (article is longer than sources) and merging into an appropriate target which exists is the best option. If subject develops sources with SIGCOV that show it passes WP:LASTING and is something more than routine news, article can be split back out easily.  // Timothy :: talk  17:05, 2 November 2023 (UTC)[reply]
  • Speedy Keep - I chose not to comment earlier as I was wondering if anyone else would resurrect Oblivy's self-expunged SPEEDYKEEP #2. Since no one did, I will do so. I think that the article is in desperate need of cleanup and rewriting, probably to the point of TNT and certainly worthy of Draftify. However, you can't SPEEDY to either of those resolutions. The Talk commentary by the nominator -- specifically the use of obscenity, abuse, and insults -- seems to me to express open malice which satisfies CSK #2d. I cannot view this nomination as a good faith effort to improve the encyclopaedia; it appears driven by a desire to punish an editor based on their good-faith beliefs and reasonable edits. If brought by a neutral editors, I would happily !vote to TNT the article. Cheers, Last1in (talk) 15:57, 6 November 2023 (UTC)[reply]
Note: I have struck what I consider to be an unfounded aspersion against me in the above post. Hemiauchenia (talk) 17:11, 6 November 2023 (UTC)[reply]
Please do not ever change a post by another editor. I have changed my own wording to make clear that these are my impressions. You do not get to strike through things you do not agree with, especially after your own behaviour on the subject article's Talk. Cheers, Last1in (talk) 19:39, 6 November 2023 (UTC)[reply]
Please review WP:RPA, and if you think somebody is acting in bad faith report it. You do not get to attack other editors in an AFD, if you think the nomination was disruptive then go report it. nableezy - 19:47, 6 November 2023 (UTC)[reply]
The above discussion is preserved as an archive of the debate. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this page.
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