Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/David Brown (Scottish Jew)

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The following discussion is an archived debate of the proposed deletion of the article below. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this page.

The result was redirect to History of the Jews in Scotland#Middle Ages to union with England. (non-admin closure) Armbrust The Homunculus 06:41, 18 June 2014 (UTC)[reply]

David Brown (Scottish Jew)[edit]

David Brown (Scottish Jew) (edit | talk | history | protect | delete | links | watch | logs | views) – (View log · Stats)
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The man apparently did nothing but be recognized as a Jew in Scotland. He wasn't the first in the land, just the first someone else noted. Article says he was a trader, but the one source mentioning his existence doesn't note what he traded, whether he was succesful or anything else that should be key to a biography. This stub is better off just a sentence in History of the Jews in Scotland. Otherwise, we're setting a bad example for what makes someone notable (their ethnicity, entirely). InedibleHulk (talk) 09:03, 11 June 2014 (UTC)[reply]

On closer examination, that one source doesn't say anything at all. It's dead. InedibleHulk (talk) 09:04, 11 June 2014 (UTC)[reply]
  • Redirect to History of the Jews in Scotland where he's already mentioned. He is covered in books e.g. Caledonian Jews: A Study of Seven Small Communities in Scotland By Nathan Abrams, p.8[1]. But I don't see that this makes him notable. --Colapeninsula (talk) 11:05, 11 June 2014 (UTC)[reply]
  • Keep The nominator seems to want to exclude the subject on the grounds of his ethnicity. This won't do - see WP:CENSOR. Andrew (talk) 12:57, 11 June 2014 (UTC)[reply]
No, I want to exclude him because his ethnicity is the only reason he's included. Not anything he did, but just who and where he happened to be. People should earn notability through deeds, not inherit it. If he was the first Jew to hold a high position or cause an important event, that'd be fine. But he merely became a resident and trader, like thousands of ordinary people. InedibleHulk (talk) 13:15, 11 June 2014 (UTC)[reply]
  • You don't have to be a VIP to be notable in Wikipedia terms. Notability is determined by coverage in reliable sources. This person is covered in numerous sources including:
  1. Encyclopedia of the Jewish Diaspora
  2. Caledonian Jews
  3. Transactions of The Jewish Historical Society of England
  4. The Jewish Year Book
  5. The Edinburgh History of Scotland
  6. Avotaynu guide to Jewish genealogy
  7. Scottish Life and Society
  8. The Jewish Monthly
  9. The Origins of Scottish Jewry
  10. Saving Jews: The History of Jewish-Christian Relations in Scotland, 1880-1948
These sources provide significant coverage. Disparaging and dismissive opinions of this person are irrelevant if they are not based upon such reliable sources. Andrew (talk) 17:48, 11 June 2014 (UTC)[reply]
Significant coverage is more than a mention. I don't have access to all those sources, but if one of them notes what he traded, with whom and how that went, that'd be significant in the article. As it stands, it seems they've nothing to say but his name, location and ability to write an application. The treasurer's decision to support him may have had more to do with the Covenanter situation in Edinburgh than vouching for his business skills. InedibleHulk (talk) 09:33, 13 June 2014 (UTC)[reply]
Note: This debate has been included in the list of Judaism-related deletion discussions. Necrothesp (talk) 13:37, 11 June 2014 (UTC)[reply]
Note: This debate has been included in the list of Scotland-related deletion discussions. Necrothesp (talk) 13:37, 11 June 2014 (UTC)[reply]
Note: This debate has been included in the list of People-related deletion discussions. • Gene93k (talk) 13:38, 11 June 2014 (UTC)[reply]
  • Redirect per Colapeninsula and Necrothesp: the ultra-stub says all there is to say about Mr. Brown, the most relevant parts of which are already mentioned in History of the Jews in Scotland. הסרפד (call me Hasirpad) 16:40, 11 June 2014 (UTC)[reply]
  • Redirect to article about history of Jews in scotland. He was just there, he did nothing truly notable, and no one has done indepth coverage of him at all.John Pack Lambert (talk) 03:18, 12 June 2014 (UTC)[reply]
  • Keep - It's not for what he did, it's for what he was. Come to think of it, most aristocrats and royals, and so called celebrities, don't do much either.-MacRùsgail (talk) 13:42, 12 June 2014 (UTC)[reply]
    • What was he? The first person of a particular religion recorded by name (not existing, but only recorded) in a particular country. I find it highly unlikely that, in the 1690s, he was the first Jew ever to live in Scotland! The point is that there is nothing further that can be said about him other than what's already there. Since this is also in the larger article, why do we need a standalone article? -- Necrothesp (talk) 13:58, 12 June 2014 (UTC)[reply]
      • Actually it is highly likely. Although there is the possibility of Jews having lived in Scotland during the medieval period, they are not recorded, and there is no evidence of that. The English expelled their Jewish population, and it was only under Cromwell, that Jews returned there. Since Scotland came under the English crown in 1603, and was fully annexed in 1707, it is likely that Scottish Jewry in this period came via England.-MacRùsgail (talk) 10:45, 15 June 2014 (UTC)[reply]
Just my (rather uneducated) opinion, but if the Bishop of Glasgow forbade dealing in borrowed Jew money, it seems likely that this was a common enough problem in 1180 (or 1190, according to Wikipedia and the sites it spawned). And proximity seems a likely cause for common problems. Then there's the whole Stone of Scone/Jacob mystery.
In any case, being the first recorded Jew apparently had no effect on the rest of his recorded life, so can't be called a notable quality/achievement. InedibleHulk (talk) 00:22, 16 June 2014 (UTC)[reply]
  • Redirect - at least until more information may be found. It's less than a stub right now. Bearian (talk) 19:44, 12 June 2014 (UTC)[reply]
    • It's got two references, and a quote. That's a lot more than thousands of articles on Wikipedia! -MacRùsgail (talk) 10:45, 15 June 2014 (UTC)[reply]
  • Merge all content and Redirect to History of the Jews in Scotland per Users Colapeninsula (talk · contribs); Necrothesp (talk · contribs); הסרפד (talk · contribs), Johnpacklambert (talk · contribs); Bearian (talk · contribs). By the way the title of this article is terrible i.e. "(Scotish Jew)" while other works may choose to identify people like that (do they?) WP does not, otherwise millions of biographies are now going to have to be relabeled as "(Scotish Hindu)"; "(American Muslim)"; "(Chinese Christian)" etc etc etc ad infinitum, ad nauseam. Bad edit and bad precedent. Thank you, IZAK (talk)
  • Comment - Can we please get out of the habit of looking for references online? Use a physical library please, not everything is on the internet, and Scottish Jewish history is barely recorded online. I've seen more information up on boards in the main Edinburgh Synagogue than on the entire internet! Google is a commercial search engine, and a money making business, not a true research tool.-MacRùsgail (talk) 10:49, 15 June 2014 (UTC)[reply]
  • Redirect I agree with the original poster's sentiments, this seems not to meet notability requirements and sets a poor precedent for notability. It works well in the History of the Jews in Scotland article, though. Solntsa90 (talk) 20:58, 15 June 2014 (UTC)[reply]
The above discussion is preserved as an archive of the debate. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this page.
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