Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Crescent Electric Supply Co.

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The following discussion is an archived debate of the proposed deletion of the article below. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this page.

The result was keep. The arguments by Cunard and others went into substantially more depth than the rationales to delete, and were not satisfactorily rebuked. (Note: I purposefully did not look at the DRV to avoid any prejudice in the close) Ritchie333 (talk) (cont) 16:04, 25 September 2018 (UTC)[reply]

Crescent Electric Supply Co.[edit]

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Crescent Electric Supply Co. (edit | talk | history | protect | delete | links | watch | logs | views) – (View log · Stats)
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promotional article for non notable company; sources are mere listings and announcements DGG ( talk ) 15:47, 1 September 2018 (UTC)[reply]

Note: This discussion has been included in the list of Business-related deletion discussions. CAPTAIN RAJU(T) 16:16, 1 September 2018 (UTC)[reply]
Note: This discussion has been included in the list of Companies-related deletion discussions. CAPTAIN RAJU(T) 16:16, 1 September 2018 (UTC)[reply]
Note: This discussion has been included in the list of Illinois-related deletion discussions. CAPTAIN RAJU(T) 16:16, 1 September 2018 (UTC)[reply]
  • Delete: a directory-like listing on an unremarkable distributor. Sources are passing mentions and / or WP:SPIP. K.e.coffman (talk) 20:39, 1 September 2018 (UTC)[reply]
  • Delete - this is an odd one. The company's business may well be boring and not in the news, but it is a 100 year old company that's in the top 500 of US private companies by revenue. The writer was incredibly sloppy. If, as suggested by a tag, he is a paid editor, we need to let companies know about the poor quality that paid editors supply. Perhaps this article was done "on speculation" and the company told them to get lost. Nothing here, as written. Smallbones(smalltalk) 00:39, 4 September 2018 (UTC)[reply]
  • delete Nothing shows that the GNG or WP:NCORP is met. Lacks significant independent coverage.Sandals1 (talk) 22:18, 5 September 2018 (UTC)[reply]
  • Keep per the significant coverage in multiple independent reliable sources.
    1. "Expanding in the Face of a Trend". BusinessWeek. No. 1442. 1957-04-20. pp. 61–68.

      This is an extensive article about Crescent Electric Supply published in BusinessWeek in 1957.

      The article notes:

      By blanketing a seven-state, predominately rural area with 18 warehouses Crescent has made itself the midwest's largest electrical distributor.

      The article lists the seven states as Wyoming, South Dakota, Nebraska, Minnesota, Iowa, Wisconsin, and Illinois.

      The article notes:

      Service to the sprawling seven-state area shown in the map above has fattened the Crescent Electric Supply Co. of Dubuque, Iowa, into one of the biggest independent U.S. distributors of electrical apparatus and equipment. Already it has more warehouse space concentrated in one region than any other electrical distributor. And, this month, Crescent is opening its 18th branch warehouse—in Des Moines.

      This expansion has a twofold significance:

      For one thing, it's a logical next step along the path that has led Crescent to success in a region with fewer big cities and industries than many other parts of the country. Through a solid lineup of warehouse branches, Crescent gives small-town and farm customers every distribution service—complete inventories, quick deliveries, credit, and special assistance of all kinds. This way, Crescent comes out ahead of its big-city rivals and local competition that draws on city stocks.

      The article further notes that "The company puts a jealous guard around sales figures—but reliable industry sources place last year's at around $10-million".

      The article discusses the company's history: how it was founded by Titus B. Schmid in Dubuque "38 years ago this month", how a new branch was opened in Madison, Wisconsin, in 1923, and a new branch was opened in Davenport, Iowa, in 1924.

      The article notes that the company has 327 employees, 25,000 accounts on its customers list, and stocks 30,000 different items from 5,000 suppliers.

      The article then provides some negative coverage of the subject, noting that "Even as Crescent is expanding, it's grappling with urgent problems that have been common to the industry in the last several years" with gross and net margins "dropping steadily since 1952—despite a doubling in gross volume since the end of World War II".

      It also notes that "in 1925, General Electric named Crescent a distributor—and now, handling all GE products that pass through normal distribution channels, it's GE's largest independent full-line distributor".

    2. Taplin, Nathaniel (2018-01-03). "Bitcoin Isn't a Currency, It's a Commodity—Price It That Way". The Wall Street Journal. Archived from the original on 2018-01-09. Retrieved 2018-09-06.

      The article notes:

      Applying the same analysis to bitcoin suggests its price could face a steep fall if demand dries up. The cost of minting a bitcoin is as low as $3,224 in Louisiana, according to an analysis by the Crescent Electric Supply Co., one of the largest electrical suppliers in the U.S.

      This article does not provide significant coverage of the subject, but I am including here because it notes Crescent Electric Supply in 2018 is "one of the largest electrical suppliers in the U.S."
    3. Lucy, Jim (2013-07-17). "Crescent Electric Supply Profile: Orchestrating Change". Electrical Wholesaling. Penton.

      The article's length is 2,584 words.

      The article notes:

      Crescent Electric was founded in Dubuque by Titus B. Schmid in 1919. An electrical contractor by trade, he was frustrated by how long it took for electrical manufacturers to ship products to Dubuque along the river from St. Louis or Minneapolis, so he started his own electrical distributorship to service the supply needs of other electrical contractors. Before too long, he opened branches down the river in Burlington and Davenport, Iowa, and about 90 miles away in Madison, Wis. Today, Crescent’s branch network stretches far beyond the Mississippi River. The company now has 1,700 employees and more than 130 branches in 27 states, and is steadily expanding into new markets with a mix of acquisitions and branch startups.

      ...

      As the company incorporates these initiatives into its operations, it’s also assessing new acquisitions or branch start-ups. Over the past two years Crescent has made three major acquisitions (McCullough Electric Co., Pittsburgh; Stoneway Electric Supply, Spokane, Wash.; and Lake Electric Supply, Storm Lake, Iowa.) It also purchased three branches of Broken Arrow Electric Supply in Lee’s Summit, Warrensburg and Warsaw, Mo., and opened new branches in Pinetop-Lakeside, Ariz., and Sidney, Mont.

    4. Kickham, Victoria Fraza (2007-11-01). "Delivering solutions; Crescent Electric Supply uses service and knowledge to sell automation and control systems to industrial customers". Industrial Distribution. Reed Business Information. p. 36.

      The article is listed as a feature and the article's length is 1,273 words.

      The article notes:

      Crescent Electric's business is split 60-40 between traditional electrical accounts-contractors, utilities and government-and industrial OEM/MRO business. The latter portion has seen strong growth lately, helped by Crescent's 2003 purchase of Northwest Controls, an Ohio distributor of automation and control products. Crescent Electric has been growing by acquisition since its inception 90 years ago and was especially active on the M&A front in the 1970s. The company has grown from one location in 1919 to 126 locations in 26 states today, with roughly 1,700 employees.

      ...

      Like most companies serving the manufacturing industry, Crescent Electric is concerned about the stability of the U.S. economy. Slow growth in manufacturing coupled with continued high energy and raw materials costs could put capital expenditures on hold indefinitely, and that would hurt, says vice president of sales Dick Cody. At the same time, he says Crescent is diversified enough to sustain some blows over the long haul.

      The article notes:

      President: James Etheredge

      Headquarters: East Dubuque, Ill.

      Founded: 1919

      2006 Sales: $976.2 million

      Employees: 1,700

      Locations: 126

      Primary Products: Electrical, industrial automation and data communications products and systems.

    5. "A Look At The Largest". Electrical Wholesaling. Penton. 2015-06-01.

      The article notes that they are publishing "capsule summaries of what's happening with some of the largest Top 200 distributors". The article notes:

      Crescent Electric Supply Co. Headquarters: East Dubuque, Ill. Senior executive: Marty Burbridge 2014 sales: $1.07 billion, an increase of about 4% over $1.03 billion in 2013 Employees: 1,800 Branches: 140 Buying/marketing group: IMARK ERP system: Eclipse After installing a new Eclipse ERP system and launching a new online storefront and in 2013, things were a little quieter for Crescent Electric Supply in 2014. The company did announce a number of mid-level personnel changes and said it plans to expand operations in the Minneapolis metropolitan area with the opening of a new facility in Minneapolis and the relocation of its St. Paul facility. In related news, the company's DataComm business currently located in Golden Valley, Minn., will be integrated into the Minneapolis facility. It also finalized the acquisition of Lake Electric Supply, Storm Lake, Iowa. Crescent has moved to a new updated ecommerce site that provides access to more than 200,000 products and allows customers to draw from the company's system-wide inventory of more than $120 million. In other company news, Crescent Electric Supply celebrated its 95th year in the electrical market on April 15. The company was founded in Dubuque, Iowa in 1919 by Titus B. Schmid.

    6. Hogstrom, Erik (2006-09-24). "Crescent founded in Dubuque". Telegraph Herald.

      The articles does not have any quotations or interviews with the company's representatives.

      The article notes:

      By 1925, Crescent had been appointed a General Electric Lamp agent.

      The company experienced steady growth, expanding to five locations in 1930, eight by 1940, 25 by 1970.

      Crescent supplies a range of electrical contractors, from one-man shops to those capable of designing and installing multimillion-dollar systems.

      Other customers include investor-owned utilities, rural electric cooperatives, municipal utilities, industrial firms, schools, hospitals, colleges, hardware and appliance stores as well as discount stores and supermarkets.

      The article also notes that the company was founded by Titus B. Schmid in 1919 in Dubuque, Illinois. The article further notes that the company's corporate office is in East Dubuque and that it has more than 120 distribution locations in 25 states including New York and Alaska.
    7. Dale, Bert (1952). "Fixture Sales Zoom at Crescent Electric". Electrical Consultant. Vol. 62. p. 42. ISSN 0361-4972. Retrieved 2018-09-12.

      The article notes:

      SOMETHING is going on, in the 16 branches of Crescent Electric Supply Company which cover all of Iowa and large portions of Illinois, Wisconsin and South Dakota. It's a big increase in lighting volume, largely on the commercial side: 90% over 1951 for the first quarter of this year — the latest figures available now. This substantial increase has been a continuing trend since a separate lighting department was established in the firm in 1945, under the supervision of Lighting Engineer Carl O. Christensen. Figures reveal that in 1941, lighting was only 5.8% of Crescent's full-time volume; in 1951, despite zooming figures in other departments, lighting fixtures accounted for 7.5% of all Crescent's business, including major appliances.

      The article further notes:

      Crescent was founded by Titus B. Schmid, its present president, in 1919. The original house at Dubuque has grown to include a manufacturing plant and 16 branches in four states, including among other employees 76 outside salesmen and 19 city counter-salesman.

      Lighting fixtures were always considred an important phase of the business by Mr. Schmid, but it was not until the establishment of a separate department that considerable advances were made. As in other full-line houses, all the salesmen sell some lighting at one time or another; but until Christensen 's advent such sales were often the result of demand or accident.

    There is sufficient coverage in reliable sources to allow Crescent Electric Supply to pass Wikipedia:Notability#General notability guideline, which requires "significant coverage in reliable sources that are independent of the subject".

    Cunard (talk) 07:46, 6 September 2018 (UTC) Two additional sources added. Cunard (talk) 06:13, 18 September 2018 (UTC)[reply]

  • I reviewed Crescent Electric Supply Co. and do not consider it to be overly promotional. The article states facts about the subject and does not use promotional language other than the sentence noting who its "top vendors" are.

    Cunard (talk) 07:46, 6 September 2018 (UTC)[reply]

  • Crescent Electric Supply received a substantial profile in BusinessWeek in 1957. The article noted the company was "the midwest's largest electrical distributor" and was "GE's largest independent full-line distributor".

    An article published in The Wall Street Journal in 2018 noted that Crescent Electric Supply is "one of the largest electrical suppliers in the U.S."

    An article in a Penton publication said that Crescent Electric Supply had $1.07 billion in sales in 2014.

    Cunard (talk) 07:46, 6 September 2018 (UTC)[reply]

  • Comment: I have expanded the article using the sources listed above.

    Cunard (talk) 08:11, 6 September 2018 (UTC)[reply]

  • Delete The article fails WP:NCORP due to lacking sufficient reliable sources proving notability. The article seems very promotional in nature and also is serving as a company directory, neither of which is appropriate on Wikipedia. Newshunter12 (talk) 11:47, 8 September 2018 (UTC)[reply]
Relisted to generate a more thorough discussion and clearer consensus.
Relisting comment: Relisted per Wikipedia:Deletion review/Log/2018 September 11 to allow further review of the sources provided late in the discussion.
Please add new comments below this notice. Thanks, -- RoySmith (talk) 14:56, 17 September 2018 (UTC)[reply]
  • Keep has substantial coverage in reliable sources as identified by Cunard particularly the long Business Week article, electrical wholesaling article and industrial distribution sources so clearly passes WP:CORPDEPTH Atlantic306 (talk) 16:52, 17 September 2018 (UTC)[reply]
  • Keep. In addition to the above, there exists a Hoover's profile (behind firewall) and this "Encyclopedia Dubuque" article: [1] Net-net, we have enough reliable, independent sources, some of which are significantly more than passing mentions, to write an article. Martinp (talk) 17:50, 17 September 2018 (UTC)[reply]
  • Martinp (talk · contribs), the "Encyclopedia Dubuque" article is a very good find because it is based on an entry about Crescent Electric Supply in a hardcover encyclopedia. Thank you.

    http://www.encyclopediadubuque.org/index.php?title=ABOUT_ENCYCLOPEDIA_DUBUQUE says:

    The basis of Encyclopedia Dubuque is the hardcover book, Dubuque: The Encyclopedia. Written in 1991 by Randolph W. LYON and published by First National Bank of Dubuque (now U.S. Bank), Dubuque: The Encyclopedia was designed as a table-top reference to Dubuque's history. Organized in alphabetical order, the entries were quick to locate and easy to read. ...

    ...

    As Dubuque reached its sesquicentennial, the Dubuque City Council announced that it would fund ten applications from local historical societies or groups with projects involving Dubuque history. The Carnegie-Stout Library Foundation chose to apply for a grant to convert the aging printed edition of Dubuque: The Encyclopedia to an expandable digital format. This grant application was approved in 2008, establishing the threshold for a new and exciting approach to local history.

    The encyclopedia Dubuque: The Encyclopedia has an entry on Crescent Electric Supply company preserved in its earliest revision at http://www.encyclopediadubuque.org/index.php?title=CRESCENT_ELECTRIC_SUPPLY_COMPANY&oldid=570. The encyclopedia provides four paragraphs of coverage about the company's history.

    Cunard (talk) 06:13, 18 September 2018 (UTC)[reply]

  • Delete per my comments at the DRV. All or or almost all of Cunard's sources except for the BusinessWeek article either fail to meet the depth requirements at WP:CORPDEPTH for only containing directory-like, routine information about the company or the independence requirements at WP:COPRIND, which specifically warns against using trade magazines. What is left is insufficient to meet to meet WP:NCORP. ---- Patar knight - chat/contributions 21:36, 17 September 2018 (UTC)[reply]
  • Delete: the sources presented above fail WP:CORPDEPTH; they are passing mentions and / or WP:SPIP. The seemingly in-depth pieces are from trade publications, so likely fail WP:ORGIND; they are known for running puffed-up articles with little editorial input. K.e.coffman (talk) 01:31, 18 September 2018 (UTC)[reply]
Patar knight (talk · contribs) and K.e.coffman (talk · contribs), what's your opinion of the Encyclopedia Dubuque article? It is local, but it seems to be another in-depth, reliable, independent source. Martinp (talk) 09:26, 18 September 2018 (UTC)[reply]
It's a tertiary source, which should always be used with more care than secondary sources. It's author, no matter how admirable his dedication to local history may be, seems to be a high school teacher with little to no formal teaching in history. [2] The sources in the article are either all short, routine stories that woudl fail WP:CORPDEPTH or non-independent (the company website). It may be a good external link, but I would not use it to evaluate notability or as a source. ---- Patar knight - chat/contributions 13:02, 18 September 2018 (UTC)[reply]
Thanks for the reply. Indeed, WP:TERTIARY provides (reasonable) guidance on source preference when writing an article. However, WP:NCORP explicitly mentions encyclopedia articles as examples of substantial coverage. And that one good source should be nonlocal, which in this case the BW article satisfies and so OK that this one is local. And if we require authors of potential sources to have "formal training in history", then I think a lot of our sources in other articles will be in trouble. By my read, WP:CORP (including CORPDEPTH and other elements of the alphabet soup) is satisfied quite well overall for this company. It's an interesting edge case, since it does seem to be a 2nd tier company of fairly local interest, but I don't think we should be more demanding that what settled policy is. Having said all that, am now signing off for a few days, and have no horses in this race (beyond continuing bemusement that 10 years after I helped rescue Arch Coal in a rather nonstandard DRV, we still seem to have allergic reactions to company articles while embracing pop culture articles and geographic stubs with much less depth of sourcing...but I digress.) Martinp (talk) 14:56, 18 September 2018 (UTC)[reply]
The requirement for one non-local source is a necessary requirement, but not a sufficient requirement. There are obviously many cases where formal training in the subject discipline is not required, most notably newspaper articles, but in those cases those sources are reliable because they're published by an organization with a reputation for fact checking that would be a hedge against mistakes. An encyclopedia focused on one small city, filled with non-notable entries, authored by someone with no formal training, and originally published by a bank does not encourage confidence.---- Patar knight - chat/contributions 14:18, 25 September 2018 (UTC)[reply]
  • Comment: Ordered by date of publication (from oldest to newest), these are the six strongest sources about Crescent Electric Supply:
    1. 20 April 1957 profile in BusinessWeek
    2. April 1969 cover story in Iowa Business & Industry magazine (link to coverInternet Archive). The cover notes:

      Crescent Electric Supply Company has fanned out over the midwest with a "localized" service concept that has boosted it to the largest distributor in this area. It took Crescent 50 years to establish 29 branch outlets and — one by one — put its inventory, services and helping-hand concept. This April the company celebrates its golden anniversary. The four sons of the founder Titus B. Schmid are shown on the cover. They are, left to right, Thomas B. Schmid, president; William T. Schmid, James A. Schmid and John Schmid. The Crescent territory now serves electrical utilities, contractors and dealers in parts of nine states. Electric supplies are its largest volume division. Major appliances are another. Household appliances are another and a growing segment is its lighting division. For a story about how a company started with a young man's idea in 1919 and blossomed out into a giant distributor, please turn to Page 24.

    3. February 1972 cover story in McGraw-Hill's Electric Wholesaling magazine titled "Crescent's information system: The Key to Controlling 29 Branches" (link to coverInternet Archive).
    4. A encyclopedia entry in Randolph W. Lyon's book Dubuque: The Encyclopedia published in 1991 by First National Bank of Dubuque (now a part of U.S. Bancorp).
    5. 24 July 2006 profile in Telegraph Herald titled "Crescent founded in Dubuque".
    6. July 2013 cover story from Penton's Electrical Wholesaling magazine titled "Orchestrating Change: How Crescent Electric Supply is blending its proud history with 21st century sales, marketing and management strategies" (link to coverInternet Archive).
    The articles were published in 1957, 1969, 1972, 1991, 2006, and 2013. Crescent Electric Supply has received significant coverage in reliable sources over many decades.

    Cunard (talk) 06:13, 18 September 2018 (UTC)[reply]

  • The three sources that are not trade magazines are:
    1. 20 April 1957 profile in BusinessWeek
    2. 1991 encyclopedia entry in the hardcover book Dubuque: The Encyclopedia
    3. 24 July 2006 profile in Telegraph Herald
    Wikipedia:Notability (organizations and companies)#Audience says "at least one regional, statewide, provincial, national, or international source is necessary". This requirement is fulfilled by the national publication BusinessWeek. It is fine for the other sources to be local sources.

    Cunard (talk) 06:13, 18 September 2018 (UTC)[reply]

  • Keep - as per User:Cunard. I think this company meets WP:CORPDEPTH as exemplified by the Wall Street Journal calling it "one of the largest electrical suppliers in the U.S.". Cwmhiraeth (talk) 13:47, 18 September 2018 (UTC)[reply]
  • Keep per meeting WP:N (I agree with Cunard's reading). Hobit (talk) 13:15, 22 September 2018 (UTC)[reply]
  • Delete - Fails WP:GNG and WP:NCORP --Jay (talk) 02:08, 25 September 2018 (UTC)[reply]
The above discussion is preserved as an archive of the debate. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this page.
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