Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Byakuren Kaikan

The following discussion is an archived debate of the proposed deletion of the article below. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this page.

The result was no consensus. Sandstein 09:36, 25 October 2015 (UTC)[reply]

Byakuren Kaikan[edit]

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Non-notable karate style. Sources are primary and don't support notability claims. GNG is not met and neither is WP:MANOTE. Astudent0 (talk) 17:16, 29 September 2015 (UTC)[reply]

Note: This debate has been included in the list of Martial arts-related deletion discussions. Astudent0 (talk) 17:16, 29 September 2015 (UTC)[reply]

Delete Fails both WP:GNG and WP:MANOTE. No significant independent coverage.Jakejr (talk) 03:01, 1 October 2015 (UTC)[reply]

Keep Searching on Google "Byakuren Karate" or "Byakuren Kaikan" all the results, although most of them in Japanese, will be pages related to this Karate style.

There are hundreds of videos on Youtube, look for them simply typing "Byakuren Karate/Kaikan" or the equivalent in Japanese "白蓮会館".

The Wikipedia in Japanese existed long before its English version and it has never been disputed.

The Wikipedia page of the Kyokushin Kaikan mentioned Byakuren long before the page was created.

There is a list of all the branches of the style all over Japan and in the world: http://www.byakuren.com/sibu/index.html

Byakuren Kaikan is part of WKO World Kumite Organization, an international association with past and future world fighting tournaments to be held in Australia and Thailand: http://www.world-kumite.org/events/category/wko-tournaments/

There are tens of websites in other languages (English, German, French, etc.) mentioning the founder Sugihara Kancho and Byakuren Karate:

http://www.kenpo06.com/maitres.htm

http://www.japanupdate.com/2013/05/karate-tournament-heading-to-ginowan/

http://www.ebay.com/itm/Full-Contact-Karate-the-Techniques-to-Win-Byakuren-Kaikan-Sugihara-Japanese-Book-/251843777620

http://www.shorin-kempo.com/index.php/shorin-kempo

http://www.dailymotion.com/video/xun8tj_coupe-du-monde-byakuren-karate-le-14-octobre-2012-osaka-japon-13_sport

https://twitter.com/100manfight/status/546787197894922241

http://www.shugendo-austria.org/kampfkunst/byakuren-kai-karate/

http://www.akama.com/company/Byakuren_Karate_USA_a6fca1869309.html

http://www.bushidoacademy.com.au/karatehistory.htm

https://www.toudoukan.com/@en/shop/goods/$/id/967353/

https://instagram.com/p/0fjZDcsvv2/

Judd Reid, Australian Karateka, Kyokushin and Shorink Kempo 5th dan has participated to the WKO World Tournament organized by Byakuren Kaikan and 100 man Kumite under the supervision of Sugihara:

https://www.facebook.com/judd.reid

http://chikaradojo.com.au/

http://turbonews13.blogspot.jp/2013/12/judd-reid-vs-100-fighters.html

https://www.facebook.com/100ManFight/photos/a.114179192062763.22384.107172879430061/258089211005093/

http://www.byakuren.com/taikai/rekidai/index.html (search for "Judd Reid" on the page and you'll get his results in 2004)

http://www.australiankyokushin.com/lineage.shtml

Kagite (talk) 10:25, 1 October 2015 (UTC)[reply]

French Magazine including an interview to Sugihara Masayasu: http://www.shugendo.fr/sites/default/files/files/2000%20Kombat%20Mag%20juill%20BYAKUREN.pdf

Japanese Magazine including an article on Byakuren Kaikan (type "白蓮会館" on the website to find the reference): http://www.fnlweb.com/blog/2015/04/fight_life_vol48423.php

Kagite (talk) 11:32, 1 October 2015 (UTC)[reply]

Typing "白蓮会館" on the NEWS search engine of Google you get a lot of articles about events organized by the Byakuren Kaikan in Japan.

Kagite (talk) 00:58, 2 October 2015 (UTC)[reply]

Note: This debate has been included in the list of Sports-related deletion discussions. SwisterTwister talk 04:33, 5 October 2015 (UTC)[reply]

Note: This debate has been included in the list of Japan-related deletion discussions. SwisterTwister talk 04:33, 5 October 2015 (UTC)[reply]

Draft & userfy for now as I found no better sourcing. SwisterTwister talk 04:33, 5 October 2015 (UTC)[reply]

History and Tournament Results of International F.S.A Kenshinkan contains a list of Karate tournaments, many were organized by the Byakuren Kaikan: http://www.karate.gr.jp/en/enkaku/index.html

French magazine Kombat Bushido Nov 2002 includes an article of the son of Kennosuke Sugihara, son of Masayasu Sugihara (page 3): http://www.shugendo.fr/sites/default/files/files/2002%20Kombat%20Nov%20n%C2%B06%20Kuramoto-kensukeSugihara.pdf

Martial arts magazine budo international 278 2014 contains an article on the Byakuren Kaikan (pages 98, 99, 100): http://issuu.com/budoweb/docs/martial_arts_magazine_budo_internat_f246cae7d6bf15

El Budoka 2.0 nº 10 magazine contains a reference to Masayasu Sugihara and his style Byakuren (page 4, 5): http://issuu.com/jsalaf/docs/budoka10

Kagite (talk) 11:31, 5 October 2015 (UTC)[reply]

~~Draft & userfy for now~~ I was fence sitting on this one but considering the number of links the primary author keeps adding to this page (not the place) the draft/userfy option is becoming more attractive. Some of those links could possibly be used to make the article viable - I refer to reliable 3rd party sources not the web sites and reports from the subject related sites. I will also say that just because the article exists elsewhere or that it is mentioned in another article does not make it notable or worthy of a stand-alone article. Right now I am having trouble sorting through the added links to determine if there is enough there to meet basic requirements. Draft and the Article for creation route seems the best option.Peter Rehse (talk) 11:39, 5 October 2015 (UTC)[reply]

REPLY I am sorry but as I said I'm new (moreover I'm not a native English speaker) and there are many things I'm still a bit confused. First of all how to communicate between us...

The reason I was "piling up" sources was that I was a bit shocked the article risks deletion while there are hundreds of pages that simply have a banner warning about the sources not being enough or not clear. Why this one was to deleted? It seemed a bit extreme to me, especially because the style is well know on the scene (at least in Japan).

Also, I'm sorry but I don't understand what you mean by "Draft & userfy" and "Draft and the Article"...

If I am to integrate the sources to the article I would like to know better how. The point is that although I could find references in some magazines still most of the information (especially the history and training parts) are based on the book written by Sugihara himself...

Sorry again if I'm creating trouble, I was enthusiast about this project since the number of information available in English is not much but it seems I've messed up a little.

Thank you in advance for any help you could provide me with. Kagite (talk) 13:44, 5 October 2015 (UTC)[reply]

Answered on your talk page.Peter Rehse (talk) 14:05, 5 October 2015 (UTC)[reply]

~~Userfy~~ I think this page should be moved to a draft space to be improved. Most of the articles don't seem to be independent and significant and from reliable sources. As this seems to be the first article of a non-English speaker I would like to give him a chance to improve this article. There may be enough coverage in Japanese to allow this article to meet WP:GNG. Mdtemp (talk) 14:39, 5 October 2015 (UTC)[reply]

Userfy: As the article stands, there doesn't appear to be sufficient in-depth coverage or third-party sourcing to satisfy the basic notability guidelines, but it seems reasonable to allow the author time to work on it and dig up some solid reference sources to adequately demonstrate notability and enable it to be reinstated as a mainspace article at a later date. --DAJF (talk) 14:47, 5 October 2015 (UTC)[reply]

PAGE FULLY REVISED with new sources and references. Please have a check, thank you. Kagite (talk) 11:05, 7 October 2015 (UTC)[reply]

Keep I am striking out my Userfy vote above - I think the notability conditions are met with the revisions,Peter Rehse (talk) 11:16, 7 October 2015 (UTC)[reply]
Keep - My vote has progressed as the article has. Initially I would have voted delete as per nom. Difficult to find sources for this. Then as work was done, would have agreed with Userfy, in order to get it into better shape, since there was an editor willing to work on it to bring it up to WP:GNG. Now, after the work has been done, it appears to pass GNG. Onel5969 ^{TT me} 13:34, 7 October 2015 (UTC)[reply]
Comment A lot of these sources appear to be passing mentions or not independent. Since I don't read Japanese I can't comment on the quality of all of the sources, so I struck my previous userfy vote and will abstain from voting.Mdtemp (talk) 18:32, 7 October 2015 (UTC)[reply]

Relisted to generate a more thorough discussion and clearer consensus.
Please add new comments below this notice. Thanks, Sandstein 19:47, 9 October 2015 (UTC)[reply]

New sources added to the article. Kagite (talk) 08:45, 11 October 2015 (UTC)[reply]

Relisted to generate a more thorough discussion and clearer consensus.
Please add new comments below this notice. Thanks, Spirit of Eagle (talk) 05:22, 17 October 2015 (UTC)[reply]

The above discussion is preserved as an archive of the debate. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this page.