Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Batbayar Khash-Erdene

The following discussion is an archived debate of the proposed deletion of the article below. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this page.

The result was keep. There is a clear difference in notability between a player who has played once in a fully professional league and one who has played once (so far) at a full international level - the highest level possible. Fenix down (talk) 07:44, 17 May 2019 (UTC)[reply]

Batbayar Khash-Erdene[edit]

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Subject of this article does not meet WP:NFOOTY or WP:GNG. Plays for the non-WP:FPL-listed Mongolian Premier League and on the youth national team, and was once substituted in the 93rd minute of a 4–1 win on the senior national team (GlobalSportsArchive.com lists him as having played for 0 minutes). Search results are limited to routine coverage, mostly of one youth national team game he had in March in which he scored a goal. Leviv ich 02:24, 10 May 2019 (UTC)[reply]

Note: This discussion has been included in the list of Sportspeople-related deletion discussions. Leviv ich 02:24, 10 May 2019 (UTC)[reply]

Note: This discussion has been included in the list of Football-related deletion discussions. Leviv ich 02:24, 10 May 2019 (UTC)[reply]

Note: This discussion has been included in the list of Mongolia-related deletion discussions. Leviv ich 02:24, 10 May 2019 (UTC)[reply]

Note: This discussion has been included in WikiProject Football's list of association football-related deletions. Leviv ich 02:29, 10 May 2019 (UTC)[reply]

Keep The article says he has made his senior international debut (confirmed by this) in addition to playing for Mongolia at youth level, therefore meeting WP:NFOOTY. Number 57 09:57, 10 May 2019 (UTC)[reply]
- Global Sports Archive ("this") lists him as being substituted 90'+3 on the game page you link to, but the same website's player page for this player lists him as having 0 minutes in that game. Leviv ich 05:06, 12 May 2019 (UTC)[reply]
Keep - per N57, meets WP:NFOOTBALL, and likely meets GNG due to his stature as international player (anybody speak Mongolian?!). Has nominator done BEFORE given sources already present in the article confirming his senior appearance?! Giant Snowman 10:01, 10 May 2019 (UTC)[reply]
Let's look at the sources in the article, and not in the article, and see if he meets NFOOTY:
1. Soccerway, which is listed at WP:WPFLINKS, is cited in the article, and lists him as having zero international games. The 1-4 Laos-Mongolia game played on 16 Oct 2018 isn't listed as one of his games. Probably an oversight, right? SW isn't 100% accurate, we all know that...
2. National-Football-Teams.net lists him as having 1 international game, as a sub, which is the 1-4 Laos-Mongolia game. But this website is the work of one person with no editorial control and there is recent consensus that it is not a reliable source. (Although it's listed at WPFLINKS, it probably shouldn't be.)
3. The link N57 provides is to GlobalSportsArchive.com, not listed in the article or at WP:WPFLINKS, but it's copyright the Data Sports Group. It says that this player was substituted in the 90th minute of a game in which his team was leading by 4-1.
4. WorldFootball.Net is also not listed in the article or at WPFLINKS, though we have a template for citing to it. It also says this player was substituted in the 90th minute of a 4-1 game, his single sub appearance.
5. 11v11, not WPFLINKS-listed, also shows the single sub appearance.
6. ESPN doesn't list this player on the roster of the 1-4 Laos-Mongolia game at all (nor does it list any of the 90th-minute substitutions in that game)
7. The official Mongolian Football Federation page doesn't seem to indicate he is on the national team. (I do not speak Mongolian but there is an "English" link at the top-right, plus Google Translate can help.)
Playing on a youth team doesn't count for NFOOTY, right? So we're going to say that a player who was substituted one time in the final minutes (90'+3) of a 4-1 game gains "standing as an international player" and thus automatically becomes notable? Some of the RSes don't even list this as a game of his (with good reason, a 90th-minute substitution is BS). If there are no sources to support GNG, and a final-minute substitution in a blowout game is the only claim to NFOOTY, then this article should be deleted. Leviv ich 15:15, 10 May 2019 (UTC)[reply]
1. The MFF profile listed only includes the club that he plays for, not previous clubs or international play. This is consistent for all MFF player profiles.--Gri3720 (talk) 20:01, 10 May 2019 (UTC)[reply]
2. This link of the full match shows #25 Khash-Erdene entering the match for #11 Nyam-Osor with several minutes remaining in the match.--Gri3720 (talk) 20:19, 10 May 2019 (UTC)[reply]
  I guess Global Sport Archive's "90'+3" means he was substituted in the 90th minute and played for three minutes? I've updated my comment, but I don't think 3 minutes in one senior game, with no other sources (besides being listed in rosters and a few routine game reports), confers notability. Leviv ich 00:30, 11 May 2019 (UTC) Since the same website lists him as having 0 minutes in the game, I guess it wasn't 3 minutes, and 90'+3 means 93rd minute? I'm not sure, but maybe it's an example of why WP:OR says editors shouldn't interpret primary sources. Leviv ich 05:06, 12 May 2019 (UTC)[reply]
  Levivich, in football, 90+x means xth minute past the regulation 90minutes (I.e. Into time added on for stoppages), so in this case yes, substituted on 93rd minute. It make no assertion about how many minutes he played as it doesn't indicate how many minutes total were added on. ClubOranje^T 06:47, 14 May 2019 (UTC)[reply]
Keep-regardless of whether we feel a 90th-minute substitute is notable ornot is irrelevant. It is enough for him to be considered notable under WP:NFOOTBALL as he has appeared in a full-international match.--Gri3720 (talk) 19:59, 10 May 2019 (UTC)[reply]
Keep - meets WP:NFOOTY with international appearance (was an unused substitute in the previous Mongolia game as well). Nfitz (talk) 02:25, 12 May 2019 (UTC)[reply]
Sources for notability? – Searching for the player's name (even in Mongolian "БАТБАЯР ХАШ-ЭРДЭНЭ") brings up no reliable sources establishing notability. All the media reports I can find are routine game mentions from a youth game in which he scored a goal [1] [2] [3] and a youth game in which he missed a shot [4]. The sources in the article don't establish notability, either. National-Football-Teams (ref 1) and his MFF profile (ref 2) are discussed above. MongolinaFootball.com (ref 3) is a passing mention in an article about another player. Ref 4 is a routine "Transfer Tracker" reporting on a contract extension. Ref 5 is stats for a youth game. Ref 6 [5] is about the youth game in which he scored a goal. Ref 7 is a lineup announcement for a game in which he did not play. Except for N-F-T (which just lists the game), none of these sources mention him playing at the senior level. Global Sports Archive says he played for 0 minutes in the senior game. There seems to be no evidence that his appearance made him notable, and we should avoid basing a notability determination (and maybe an entire BLP) on primary sources. If not deleted, this article should be draftified until/unless we have reliable sources establishing the subject meets one of the notability criteria. Leviv ich 05:06, 12 May 2019 (UTC)[reply]
You've noted yourself that the video shows him entering at around 90+3. There appears to have been 5 minutes of extra time. Other sources confirm this. Therefore the article meets WP:NFOOTY and the claim in the nomination is not true. Yes, we could nominate every international player who has just met WP:NFOOTY to test if they also meet WP:GNG but generally, they invariably do. And we don't do this, particularly for younger players, because it is just a waste of everyone's time. This guy is young, and we are discussing the most recent Mongolian national team game. At the same time we are dealing with a relatively closed country, where it's hard to access media reports. Surely everyone's time is better spent improving articles, than debating whether or not meeting WP:NFOOTY is good enough. Nfitz (talk) 16:33, 12 May 2019 (UTC)[reply]
Nfitz, I agree with your point, but there's a big difference between starting, or even subbing, in an international game, and being subbed in the 90th minute of a 4–1 win. That's not a real substitution; nobody is going to write about the player who was subbed in the 90th minute of a blowout. When the founder of MongolianFootball.com says there are no sources (see comment below), then there are no sources–it's not because they're inaccessible, it's because they don't exist, which means this person is not notable. Even MongolianFootball.com didn't bother writing about him–he's mentioned in a story about another player [6]. The subject of this article doesn't meet GNG; there is nothing from which we can write an article. Also, I think you're incorrect about this being the most-recent Mongolian national team game, see Mongolia national football team#Fixtures and results. I linked above to a source that showed this player rode the bench in the Tapei game (which was after Laos), and there's no indication he played in the ~~next four games or was even on the roster for the other four~~ final three games after Laos (see games list below). He is not really a member of the senior national team, not yet. Leviv ich 02:41, 13 May 2019 (UTC)[reply]
Big difference User:Levivich? There's nothing in FIFA's cap-tie rules that mention the number of minutes played - be it 1 or 90. How is there a big difference - do you have a reference to support that? There's also nothing in the athletic notability standards that speak to the number of minutes played. It's perfectly normal for a young player to only enter at the end of their first match. The notability standards have been met. Yes, it appears there have been other matches since the Laos and Singapore friendlies that he was called up for. I'm not sure how demonstrating that he was in the line-up for more games than I thought of, including the most recent trip to 2019 EAFF E-1 Football Championship demonstrates anything. We've established notability standards so that we don't waste a lot of time arguing about GNG for foreign players where it's difficult to find sources. To start fighting that battle only allows WP:BIAS and WP:DISCRIMINATION to creep into the project - particularly for a part of the world where you yourself acknowledge the experts who say that there just aren't such sources! Nfitz (talk) 03:39, 13 May 2019 (UTC)[reply]

Also User:Levivich ... you said there's no indication that he was even on the bench for the 4 games after Laos. AFAIK Mongolia has only played 4 international matches since Laos. These are a Philippine friendly (for which I can't quickly find a line-up) and games against North Korea, Tapei, and Hong Kong, where he's listed in the line-up of all three games already referenced on at both Mongolia national football team#2019 and 2019 EAFF E-1 Football Championship#Second preliminary round. Why do you say there's no indication he's in the roster? Why haven't you edited your nomination statement to remove the claim that WP:NFOOTBALL hasn't been met? Nfitz (talk) 03:57, 13 May 2019 (UTC)[reply]
Really, Nfitz, you're going to accuse the editor who's posted a dozen links here of not performing a BEFORE search? Even though I research my AfD nominations (several hours on this one so far), I'm still human and make mistakes. Here are the national games since Laos:
16 Oct v. Laos, the one where this player was substituted in the 90th minute

3 Nov v. Davao Aguilas [7], I can't find a lineup for it either

11 Nov v. DPRK [8] did not play

13 Nov v. Taipei [9] did not play

16 Nov v. HK [10] did not play

1 Dec v. China [11] ~~not on roster~~ (women)

3 Dec v. Taipei [12] ~~not on roster~~ (women)

5 Dec v. HK [13] ~~not on roster~~ (women)

He was subbed in the 90th minute of one game–GSA, the only source that lists minutes, lists him as playing 0 minutes, although watching the film (which is WP:OR) suggests it may have been as many as two or three minutes. Then he was on the bench but did not play in the next three (maybe four) games. Then he was not on the roster for the final three games. They gave him an "appearance" likely as a career booster, but did not use him on the senior national team, then took him off the roster, apparently. There have been other AfDs that have come to consensus that barely passing NFOOTY, with no other sources, doesn't establish notability. In this instance, there are no reliable, independent, secondary sources. We can't watch the game film and then go write an article about a player we saw substituted at the end of the game. (And we can't write about it on our website and then use our website as a source in a Wikipedia BLP we create. That's kind of a policy violation, or maybe it's just me?) Leviv ich 05:00, 13 May 2019 (UTC)[reply]
Subs in second half stoppage time are officially credited with playing zero minutes (unless the match goes to extra time, of course.) It still counts as an appearance. Smartyllama (talk) 12:54, 13 May 2019 (UTC)[reply]
User:Levivich I expressed concern about your research. And I remain concerned; you just listed three December 2018 women's games, noting that this man didn't play in them - EAFF E-1 Football Championship (women)#Second preliminary round! The other match you added (November 3) wasn't an international match, and was an unofficial game against a team from Tagum City. In your nomination you claimed that WP:NFOOTBALL wasn't met, despite a lot of information in the article making it clear that he'd played for Mongolia a few months ago. Please fix or withdraw the nomination! Nfitz (talk) 13:11, 13 May 2019 (UTC)[reply]
I admit, you've got me tripping all over myself in this tangent here. I should have looked more closely at those last few games (and the pictures of the teams, heh), so I updated my comments above. My point, though, remains correct: the "garbage time" or "time stoppage" substitution in the Laos game is his only time on the field for a senior team; they did not play him for the remaining games. I should have originally said "no evidence he played" rather than "no evidence he was on the roster", but that technicality aside, the difference between the two isn't meaningful; the point is: he didn't play in any of the other games. Leviv ich 16:04, 13 May 2019 (UTC)[reply]
Then why not fix your nominating statement and remove the false claim that they don't meet WP:NFOOTBALL. BTW, I've been attending soccer matches for years, and have never heard the term "garbage time" used. As far as I know, it's a term from a different sport, when the last minutes are played with numerous stoppages to the clock! Also, I've added a Mongolian-language source to the article - I'm not seeing a shortage of others when I search - you claimed above that there is nothing with which we can write an article.Nfitz (talk) 16:56, 13 May 2019 (UTC)[reply]
In my view, a 90th minute substitution in a 4–1 game doesn't or shouldn't count as meeting NFOOTY. I understand you disagree with my view, but I'm not going to change or withdraw my nomination just because you disagree with it. We cannot write an article based on statistics websites and routine game reports. I think you and I have discussed this nomination about as much as is fruitful. Leviv ich 17:57, 13 May 2019 (UTC)[reply]
Even ignoring you interpretation of NFOOTY, there are other false claims in the nomination statement. Such as Search results are limited to routine coverage of one youth national team game he had in March in which he scored a goal.. I've found references and added one pertaining to his league appearances, and there other references to his league appearances. There are also references to his national team call-ups. Your nomination statement shows a lot of bias, and is just blatantly wrong in places. That you refuse to correct or clarify it is disturbing! How is being the number 2 scorer in the highest-level league in the nation in a rookie year "normal"? How is winning the inaugural game for his new club "normal"? We most certainly can write an article based on these things. And WP:NFOOTBALL has been met, despite your claims otherwise! I don't expect you to change your nomination because I disagree with it. I expect you to change it because it's factually wrong! And nomination aside - surely the additional evidence that has been provided deserves consideration, whether one agrees with the nomination statement or not! Nfitz (talk) 19:06, 13 May 2019 (UTC)[reply]
OK I updated the nomination. Leviv ich 19:18, 13 May 2019 (UTC)[reply]
NFT profile We have already proven that (at least in this case) NFT IS reliable because I shared the game footage proving that it is correct. I am personally the founder and author of mongolianfootball.com and I can almost guarantee you that if you are searching for Mongolian sources, you will not find any. Most clubs in Mongolia, and even the MFF, only post Facebook updates, which is a big part of why I started Mongolian Football.--Gri3720 (talk) 14:08, 12 May 2019 (UTC)[reply]
- Because NFT is apparently a self-published source, I don't think it can be used as a source for a WP:BLP per WP:BLPSPS. (Unfortunately, I don't think MongolianFootball.com can, either, for the same reason.) Leviv ich 05:00, 13 May 2019 (UTC)[reply]
Delete per nominator; SNGs don't ask for a common-sense-less interpretation.∯WBG^converse 16:30, 12 May 2019 (UTC)[reply]
Keep Passes WP:NFOOTY by playing internationally. I believe stoppage time subs are officially credited as playing for zero minutes (unless the match goes to extra time, of course) but it counts as an appearance and thus satisfies the criteria. Smartyllama (talk) 12:53, 13 May 2019 (UTC)[reply]
Delete - Article about footballer who appears to have played a handful of minutes in a single international match (during "garbage time" as it's known here in the US). He received some nominal coverage for his goal with the youth international team, but it's not significant coverage. There is plenty of precedent (e.g., Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Cosmos Munegabe) that a single international appearance doesn't satisfy the spirit of NFOOTBALL when the article comprehensively fails the GNG - as this one does. Jogurney (talk) 14:31, 13 May 2019 (UTC)[reply]

I don't think this is comparable @Jogurney: to Cosmos Munegabe - I can't even verify that Cosmos existed, other than a single RSSF source that was a decade old during the AFD. Deleting a player who meets WP:NFOOTBALL but without out enough sources to verify his existence is very different than a player who we have verifiable information as being a substitute in all the recent (men's) national team games, and has international press coverage for his U-23 appearance. We couldn't even find Cosmos' age or birthplace! Here we have lots of verifiable references. Nfitz (talk) 15:39, 13 May 2019 (UTC)[reply]

We only have Khash-Erdene's birthdate through a MFF profile which is purely a statistics database entry (we don't have his birthplace). There is slightly more coverage on Khash-Erdene than Munegabe but almost all of its is a single sentence name-drop or an entry in a statistics database. The only substantive difference between the articles is Khash-Erdene's career is in its infancy, but we shouldn't use WP:CRYSTAL to guess that he might become the subject of significant coverage in the future - it's simple to recreate the article when and if that occurs. Jogurney (talk) 15:50, 13 May 2019 (UTC)[reply]

There's numerous sites listing his 1997 birthdate - including the Mongolian Football Federation's website and ESPN. And I'm not having any problems finding coverage of him in the Mongolian-language media - he was the number 2 goal scorer in the league, in his rookie year, even scoring the only goal, in his teams first-ever victory under their new name. Perhaps we should spend more time checking for GNG in foreign languages; I've added one to the article. Nfitz (talk) 16:56, 13 May 2019 (UTC)[reply]

I did a Google search of "Б Хаш-Эрдэнэ Хөлбөмбөг" and it does yield some coverage in Mongolian-language sources (~~This appears to mention he received an award~~) but most of the coverage involves his name appearing in a Mongolian league match report. I just don't see GNG-compliant coverage (although I suspect Google translate is a bit unreliable for Mongolian). Jogurney (talk) 19:39, 13 May 2019 (UTC)[reply]

Keep. The principal of NFOOTY is that by the time a player reaches a certain level there will have been a notable amount of coverage, because people aren't typically plucked off the street and sent out to represent their country without having displayed some capability. Now, I'm not one to buy into the notion that a player that has 10 minutes in a fourth level league is notable just because it is a "fully professional league", but here we are talking about a player who has represented his country, a country that is relatively closed to the outside world and not over endowed with internet based gossip rag gutterpress organisations like some places, but they do have internal newspaper, authors and historians who have likely covered this guy as he has verifiably represented his country. Just because sources are not online, doesn't mean they don't exist, and this person is way more notable than someone who has only played a game or two at 4th level on English football - of which there are hundreds with articles due to systemic bias. ClubOranje^T 07:06, 14 May 2019 (UTC)[reply]

I think that you make a very good point here. A player is not less notable under NFOOTY just because they've played for a developing nation without extensive media, although media coverage of the team and player do exist. I believe there is a bias here toward "good teams" or "famous" teams. If this player made his international debut for Germany in the last minutes of an 8-0 thumping of San Marino, for instance, that player would certainly be considered notable and the notability of that player would never be questioned. However, that is the logic being applied here to this Mongolian player. Granted, most players for Germany would have surely played for a fully professional club before making their international debut, but the point remains the same in isolation.--Gri3720 (talk) 19:19, 14 May 2019 (UTC)[reply]

Typically young footballers from nations with more-developed football leagues (e.g., fully-pro leagues) will have already become notable for their play in the league (e.g., Jadon Sancho) before their international debut. Jogurney (talk) 19:50, 14 May 2019 (UTC)[reply]

I made that exact point in my response. But it is irrelevant here in regards to notability solely through senior international play.--Gri3720 (talk) 20:35, 14 May 2019 (UTC)[reply]

No part of this nomination hinges on the country he plays for. With respect to my colleagues, I think those that believe that a player becomes "notable" (in any sense of the word) as a result of being substituted in the final minutes of a blowout international friendly are engaged in sheer speculation. I don't think any such player–the one who was put in for "garbage time"–becomes notable, or is considered to have represented their nation, or is considered anything beyond a bench substitute. I don't think you'll find any in-depth profiles of any player in any league from any time who has only played for a few minutes of garbage time. Not in Germany, not in England, not in Mongolia. This is not a case of not having access to sources, because we do have access to sources talking about this player–they just don't mention him playing for the senior national team. Even MongolianFootball.com's mention of this player doesn't mention that he played for the senior national team [14] (though it does mention that the player won a Silver Boot). There is strong evidence that a few minutes of garbage time play doesn't mean anything to anyone, and so it shouldn't mean anything to us, either. Leviv ich 20:56, 14 May 2019 (UTC)[reply]

Why do you exaggerate? 4-1 isn't a blow-out - and the game was tied until the 75 minutes. The term "garbage time" isn't widely (if at all) used in soccer. Why keep repeating yourself? You've already made this point. And what's the relevance that the article about a different player, doesn't mention that the brief mention of Batbayar doesn't mention he played for the national team - how would that even have fitted into that article - how does that mean anything? Nfitz (talk) 00:44, 15 May 2019 (UTC)[reply]

Norjmoogiin Tsedenbal is on Ranker's list of famous Mongolians [15] and famous Mongolian footballers [16]. A blog from last month notes him as the "best player" of the first EAFF round [17]. MongolianFootball.net wrote a full paragraph about his contract extension a few years ago [18]. That paragraph specifically notes his international debut in 2009. Compare that with Khash-Erdene, where MF.net wrote only two sentences, and didn't mention an international senior debut [19]. Baljinnyam Batbold is another. An opposing team included him in a scouting report, calling him "one promising talent", and specifically noting his international debut "earlier this year" [20]. MongolianFootball.net wrote a whole profile of him, and noted his international senior debut in 2018 [21]. This online newspaper article scouting CNMI's opponents [22], including Mongolia, specifically notes both of these players, and others. So, there are people writing about the Mongolian national team and its players, even if these examples aren't all RSes. There are also sources about this player, Khash-Erdene. But nobody writes about this player's few minutes at the end of a 4–1 int'l friendly. Nobody notes this fact about this player, and nobody really notes this player in general; therefore, the player is not notable. Wikipedia shouldn't be the first place where a person's biography appears on the internet, or the first source to write, "so-and-so made their international debut in 2018". Leviv ich 03:33, 15 May 2019 (UTC)[reply]

Keep Passes WP:NFOOTY- -MA Javadi (talk) 13:36, 16 May 2019 (UTC)[reply]

The above discussion is preserved as an archive of the debate. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this page.