Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Bêlit (2nd nomination)

The following discussion is an archived debate of the proposed deletion of the article below. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this page.

The result was no consensus. It might be worth discussing on the talk page whether this content is better framed as a broader article or section about race and gender in Conan the Barbarian. Sandstein 10:54, 7 September 2020 (UTC)[reply]

Bêlit[edit]

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The coverage (references, external links, etc.) does not seem sufficient to justify this article passing Wikipedia:General notability guideline and the more detailed Wikipedia:Notability (fiction) requirement. WP:BEFORE did not reveal any significant English-language coverage on Gnews, Gbooks or Gscholar. At best this can be redirected to the novellete she appeared in (Queen of the Black Coast) - there is next to no referenced (and non-pure plot) content to merge, anyway. _{Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus| reply here} 06:19, 11 August 2020 (UTC)[reply]

Note: This discussion has been included in the list of Fictional elements-related deletion discussions. _{Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus| reply here} 06:19, 11 August 2020 (UTC)[reply]

Note: This discussion has been included in the list of Science fiction and fantasy-related deletion discussions. _{Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus| reply here} 06:19, 11 August 2020 (UTC)[reply]

Note: This discussion has been included in the list of Literature-related deletion discussions. Toughpigs (talk) 21:38, 11 August 2020 (UTC)[reply]

Comment. This is not second nomination, but the article was moved into the namespace that another now deleted article now occupied... --_{Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus| reply here} 06:20, 11 August 2020 (UTC)[reply]
Keep The subject is covered in sources such as Race and Popular Fantasy Literature and Conan Meets the Academy. Note that the name comes from ancient Mesopotamia and there's lots of scholarly discussion about it as a title used for various goddesses, So the previous nomination was erroneous too. Applicable policies include WP:ATD; WP:IGNORINGATD; WP:NOTPAPER; WP:PRESERVE; &c. Andrew🐉(talk) 12:21, 11 August 2020 (UTC)[reply]
- I don't see anything in those sources that goes beyond mentions in passing of plot summaries. Can you quote what you found, if it is better than this? TIA. --_{Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus| reply here} 05:18, 12 August 2020 (UTC)[reply]
  - They are the same sources referred to by Toughpigs below. Here's a quote for you
    ... it is the corrupt bias of the will that bribes and besots the understanding: none so blind as those that will not see.
    — Matthew Henry
Weak delete I haven't been able to find more than passing mentions, so it doesn't seem like a properly encyclopedic article can be written at the moment. Conan Meets the Academy, for example, which seems like it ought to be a goldmine for substantial coverage of notable characters, never spends more than a paragraph on Belit, usually discusses her in conjunction with at least one other character, and the paragraph itself is always about some aspect of Conan which is merely illustrated by his relationship with Belit. It is no help for, for example, identifying basic facts about the origins and reception of the character. It seems like she is fairly important in-fiction -- this source calls her the one true love of Conan's life -- but at least in academic sources she does not seem to have attracted attention. I hesitate, though, since this is an older property and thus it's possible better sources exist only in print. Other places to look might be articles specifically on women in Conan, or perhaps "popular" sources like fantasy magazines, which sometimes publish various retrospectives or commentaries-- I could imagine someone writing about how this character was important to them. ~ oulfis 🌸(talk) 17:20, 12 August 2020 (UTC)[reply]
Delete - Passing mentions do not equate to notability. Should print sources ever be uncovered, the topic should be explored first from the context of the main article anyway. TTN (talk) 00:34, 15 August 2020 (UTC)[reply]
Keep: The sources are not passing mentions, and discuss the character in detail, including the gender and race implications of her portrayal. Conan Meets the Academy comments on her subservient gendered relationship with Conan, despite being a fierce warrior. Race and Popular Fantasy Literature has several pages on Belit's character (pg 48-50), discussing the racial coding of her characterization as an emancipator of Black slaves. The character is also discussed in The Robert E. Howard Guide (Skelos Press, 2018). I added references and quotes to the article from all three sources. — Toughpigs (talk) 19:59, 15 August 2020 (UTC)[reply]
- Now those are much better sources, but I can access only the first one, where there is indeed a paragraph long discussion of her. How long are the sections in the other two books, and does the Guide go beyond a plot summary? --_{Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus| reply here} 00:37, 16 August 2020 (UTC)[reply]
  - The section in Race and Popular Fantasy Literature goes on for a little over three pages, starting on page 48 and going to the top of page 51. The Robert E. Howard Guide discusses Belit for about a page. — Toughpigs (talk) 02:15, 16 August 2020 (UTC)[reply]
    - It would be helpful if you could quote the page ranges. Re The Robert E. Howard Guide, do you refer to the text on pages 88-89 (accessible at Amazon at [1])? If so, the page is about the story she appears, in, through I'll grant that there seems about a paragraph-long content that is about her. For Race and Popular Fantasy Literature, I assume you mean the mentions on pages 48-51? Page 51 is not available for me, as for the others, those pages are not only about her, other characters are discussed there as well, interwoven with discussion of her. Geneerlously we could say she gets about two paragraphs on those pages, not counting some pure plot summary and quotations from books. Hmmmm. This is better than nothing, and certainly better than plot summaries that are the only thing often found for such characters. I checked again, however, and I can't find anything substantial in Google Scholar outside the sources already presented here. Hmmmm. If only there was as much as a section about her, not even a chapter, in a work somewhere... this is all really in the blurry zone between in-depth and passing, effectively few sentences in few sources. --_{Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus| reply here} 02:02, 17 August 2020 (UTC)[reply]
      - Did you see what I added to the article based on the Race and Popular Fantasy Literature source? The section analyzes Belit's role as a white woman in relationship to her "savage" black crew. This is real-world literary criticism that goes beyond plot description. It is certainly not a passing mention. — Toughpigs (talk) 02:41, 17 August 2020 (UTC)[reply]
        As I said, you found some good sources, I am however still not sure if this is sufficient. I am considering withdrawing this nom, but a bit more in sources would help. The mentions are paragraph long, which is better than in-passing sentence or two, but still, it is just a paragraph here or there. That's, for me, is borderline. But if others think this is sufficient, maybe it is for the best. --_{Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus| reply here} 04:03, 17 August 2020 (UTC)[reply]
Keep - I am swayed by the sources uncovered here. The article doesn't need to be long, but it seems that meeting the minimums of WP:GNG is done. I have no concern over short Stub- or Start-class articles. As a character that has also now starred in her own comic book series, if a reader were to look up the character to discern interest, a standalone article would probably better serve them than sifting through extraneous information about the rest of the original work . There may be some character-specific discussion in those 16 reviews, but I don't think searching them for content that is probably not better than what has already been presented is necessary. -2pou (talk) 17:43, 17 August 2020 (UTC)[reply]

Relisted to generate a more thorough discussion and clearer consensus.
Please add new comments below this notice. Thanks, North America¹⁰⁰⁰ 10:17, 19 August 2020 (UTC)[reply]

Keep - Reading through the comments, I think fellow editors identified support for notability; I think this one is a keeper.GizzyCatBella 🍁 07:32, 20 August 2020 (UTC)[reply]
Weak Delete or merge - after a review of the sources raised in this discussion. This book has a few passing mentions about the character's name during the racial implications of one of the Conan storylines, which is really more of a critique of race and racism in the Conan series at large. The mentions are not particularly on topic or substantial enough to establish notability for the character, but it's enough to add more critical reception to the Conan series or universe. Jontesta (talk) 14:46, 22 August 2020 (UTC)[reply]

That is not the case. Race and Popular Fantasy Literature spends several pages (pg 48-50) talking specifically about Belit's role as the white savior of a crew of "savage" Black people. If you look at the article, you can see how I used this and other sources to build up non-trivial coverage of the topic. — Toughpigs (talk) 22:53, 29 August 2020 (UTC)[reply]

Delete per TTN. WP:TRIVIALMENTIONS do not equate to notability, and there are no sources that address this subject directly and in detail, as per the WP:GNG. Shooterwalker (talk) 14:55, 26 August 2020 (UTC)[reply]

Relisted to generate a more thorough discussion and clearer consensus.
Please add new comments below this notice. Thanks, Vanamonde (Talk) 18:52, 26 August 2020 (UTC)[reply]

Merge or delete there are sources that are right on the edge of meeting the general notability guideline. The race/gender politics of Conan are worth an article (or at least a section) somewhere, but the articles found don't really establish notability of this character. There's a way to cover this, but worst case, take the sources about race/gender and summarize them more accurately at some other Conan article. Archrogue (talk) 19:03, 6 September 2020 (UTC)[reply]
Keep. While a Gscholar search on simply "Belit" produces an absurd number of results (overwhelmingly OCR'd variations on belit-tle), targeted searches (like "Conan Belit" and "Howard Belit" produce very manageable sets with plausible sources, many non-English. "Fandom and the Nostalgia of Masculinity"; “'Barbarian Heroing' and Its Parody"; "'Death to the Masters!': The Role of Slave Revolt in the Fiction of Robert E. Howard"; "Beefy Guys and Brawny Dolls"; "Heroes in the Wind"; "The Dark Man Men, Part Three" -- these may not, individually, be sufficient, but collectively these and many other articles provide more than enough commentary to establish notability, even without looking at the nonEnglish articles. The Big Bad Wolfowitz (aka Hullaballoo). Treated like dirt by many administrators since 2006. Fight for freedom, stand with Hong Kong! (talk) 01:42, 7 September 2020 (UTC)[reply]
Which of those sources address Belit, rather than general gender in the series? czar 02:03, 7 September 2020 (UTC)[reply]

The above discussion is preserved as an archive of the debate. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this page.