Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Abiel Lebelo

The following discussion is an archived debate of the proposed deletion of the article below. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this page.

The result was redirect to Soweto Uprising. History will be left intact due to the significant interest in a merge. Seraphimblade ^{Talk to me} 21:41, 15 August 2016 (UTC)[reply]

Abiel Lebelo[edit]

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I am finding several news so far but I'm still not seeing anything to actually suggest his own convincing notability for his own article as he's only best and majorly known for that 1 event. SwisterTwister talk 05:46, 12 July 2016 (UTC)[reply]

Note: This debate has been included in the list of Africa-related deletion discussions. SwisterTwister talk 05:46, 12 July 2016 (UTC)[reply]

Comment, have notified the creator, Bobbyshabangu, of this afd. Coolabahapple (talk) 22:39, 14 July 2016 (UTC)[reply]
- Hi user Coolabahapple and user talk, The Abiel Lebelo article is part of the Joburgpedia project where we are working with the GLAM institutions such as the Johannesburg Heritage Foundation and the City of Johannesburg to install qr coded blue plaque in places marked as historical and heritage significance around the Gauteng Province. These qr plauqes link to a Wikipedia page of that historical site. And to mark 40 years of the 16 June 1976 Soweto uprising and in commemoration of those who lost their lives in that uprising, the City of Johannesburg chose to install a blue plaque on the site where Abiel Lebelo was killed, he was specifically chosen because he was one of the leaders of the 16 June Soweto uprising. Bobbyshabangu _talk 08:20, 15 July 2016 (UTC)[reply]
Keep A key figure in the 1976 uprising, numerous references in major publications. Greenman (talk) 10:34, 15 July 2016 (UTC)[reply]
Delete Being shot dead in a riot doesn't automatically equate to longterm notability. Incorporate into existing general article on the Soweto Uprising as part of victim list. Engleham (talk) 18:35, 18 July 2016 (UTC)[reply]
- Yes, but stopping there is a bit like saying Rosa Parks is not notable as she only sat down on a bus. Their role in the events that followed is key. The person is recognised as a notable figure by the Heritage Foundation and by the city of Johannesburg, appears in South African history archives, and is mentioned in newspapers from all over the world. Most of the other ~176-700 victims of the massacres are not receiving this level of recognition 40 years later. Greenman (talk) 21:20, 18 July 2016 (UTC)[reply]

Relisted to generate a more thorough discussion and clearer consensus.
Please add new comments below this notice. Thanks, North America¹⁰⁰⁰ 15:27, 19 July 2016 (UTC)[reply]

Delete: Claiming that the subject was a "key figure in the 1976 uprising" is stretching things hugely; I suspect that if he hadn't been a casualty of it, no one would ever have heard of him. Plainly a ONEEVENT case. Nha Trang ^Allons! 18:14, 20 July 2016 (UTC)[reply]
Delete I am guessing the protest and the march may be notable, but one student being shot isn't notable. This person's death did not spawn a counter revolution or any other notable drama. The movement was already underway. In fact, "By the end of the day scores of protesters had been killed and many more injured" [1]. I agree this is ONEEVENT. This person hardly compares to Rosa Parks - her actions were one of several sparks that lit the Civil Rights movement in the USA. Her actions were a turning point - ultimately causing a paradigm shift. ---Steve Quinn (talk) 04:03, 22 July 2016 (UTC)[reply]

Is African heritage not important? Clearly there's a double standard here, with scores of minor American murder victims getting an article, but an African heritage figure being written off as "one event". Neither response above addresses the fact that's it's 40 years later, and the person is still appearing in newspapers around the world, and is recognised by the primary heritage entity. Please address those issues before repeating the argument. You can equally argue that if Rosa Parks had not sat on the bus, she would also not be remembered, and the Civil Rights movement would have continued and her actions were "just one event". I am not arguing for the equivalence of the two, I am simply pointing out how ludicrous "one event" is out of context. Greenman (talk) 19:36, 22 July 2016 (UTC)[reply]

Keep This AfD seems to turn on the policy at WP:BIO1E, namely in what instances is a ~~BLP~~ biography (I apologize for this error) warranted even when a person is known only for one event. Two main questions apply:

1. Was this a major event?

Given the Soweto uprising entry tells us the event is now marked with a public holiday in South Africa (unless anyone is disputing that), this seems like clearly a major event. To pursue the US analogy, this level of public recognition makes the event actually go beyond even Rosa Parks (a planned organizing action that had a major impact): it's more like the assassination of MLK (where there was both planned organizing that had a major impact and also the shooting death of one of the leaders of that organizing, resulting in a national holiday).

2. Was this person a major figure in the event?

The sources indicate Lebelo was one of the planners of the march and, obviously, being among those who died is the very thing that makes the event so significant (as Jeffrey Miller's death is an essential aspect of what made the Kent State shooting a significant event). When we look at WP:BIO1E about how to interpret the significance of someone's role in an major event, it tells us: "When the role played by an individual in the event is less significant, an independent article may not be needed, and a redirect is appropriate. For example, George Holliday, who videotaped the Rodney King beating, redirects to Rodney King." Since Abiel Lebelo lost his life, it seems to me that his role in the Soweto uprising is much, much more akin to Rodney King than George Holliday.

Given the significance of the event and the significance of Lebelo's role in it, to me this ~~BLP~~ biography passes the notability guideline for a separate entry. Not to mention makes a valuable contribution to an undercovered topic on Wikipedia. Innisfree987 (talk) 19:47, 30 July 2016 (UTC)[reply]

Redirect to 1976 Soweto uprising article creation presumably inspired by the 40th anniversary of the June, 1976 uprising. And the fact that the anniversary was marked by the installation of a plaque honoring Lebelo's death. I think the amount of coverage this event garnered, 40 years on, makes this death arguably notable - although if kept the article should certainly be moved to Death of Abiel Lebelo. The fact that the coverage has not been extensive, and that 1976 Soweto uprising is quite a brief article, means that this could be merged intact to that article. If it is redirected, and if for whatever reason Lebelo's fame/notability grows in retrospect (I can easily imagine a film or book with him as a central figure), there should be no prejudice against separating this out as a free-standing article. Sourcing (I have augmented sourcing on page) suffices to outweigh deletion arguments made above.E.M.Gregory (talk) 11:56, 2 August 2016 (UTC)[reply]

When you say you think if it were a standalone article, it should be called Death of Abiel Lebelo instead of being a bio--I'm wondering if you can explain your reasoning a little more? I have to say I share Greenman's concern for winding up (however unintentionally) imposing a double standard, since we do have lots of US examples of bios for people whose notability arises from WP:BIO1E, and in particular of police violence that sparked a strong activist movement and social change in response--like Jeffrey Miller and Rodney King as I mention above--but who I think we basically accept as notable because of the significant role in significant event test. I know of course WP:OTHERSTUFFEXISTS, I'm just trying to understand what the difference is here, so as to make sure it's not just that, likely many more of the people who happen to edit Wikipedia have heard of the Kent State shooting or the Rodney King beating than they have of the Soweto Uprising, so we give the latter less weight for no reason other than our own perspective. Innisfree987 (talk) 15:23, 2 August 2016 (UTC)[reply]

It is standard to the point where those 2 examples surprise me. (Just checked, Rodney King died many years after the notorious incident.) Much more usual is Shooting of Tamir Rice, take a look at that AFD Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Tamir E. Rice, Death of Eric Garner. This is because these people became notable only because of the unusual circumstances of their death, and is the uniform treatment of individuals regarding whom there are no independent sources pre-dating the death, even with someone like Lebelo, who was a SSRC representative. E.M.Gregory (talk) 17:41, 2 August 2016 (UTC)[reply]

Huh. We really have different impressions. Emmett Till is done as a bio; James Chaney, Andrew Goodman and Michael Schwerner who were murdered together and had a small amount of public notice about activism prior to/separate from their deaths (actually quite similar to Lebelo about whom we mostly know of his activism and his death--and of course Till is entirely known for his death, being just a kid when he died) each have a biography; Lamar Smith (activist) another murdered Civil Rights Movement activist is a bio; I hope you'll understand if I allow myself a pause here in reading through these painful examples. Basically in short, that these should necessarily be (or be merged with) event pages does not seem to me to be the existing standard (and I'm not so surprised to find this, given this explicit allowance for those who played a significant role in a major event). You could certainly argue that guideline ought to be changed but I think it would need a larger discussion to find consensus about it: I don't think it's settled that way, at present.

As for the AfD. Quite a lot going on there, but to try to focus on what could be helpful to us I'll note: police shot and killed Tamir Rice on November 23, 2014. By November 29, 2014, Wikipedia had already opened and closed an AfD. I understand the need to settle current events topics for how they'll be handled for the time being, but it also means ivoters didn't know if his death would function as a "major event", to pass that prong WP:BIO1E test. Here some 20 months later, I wonder if many people might feel differently about how significant that event has become; but in any case, the "major event" aspect is really very clear for Lebelo: 40 years on, the event is so significant in South African history, SA has a public holiday dedicated to it. It just really clearly seems to pass the "major event, significant role" test, to me. Again, it's possible this is revealing a flaw in the guideline, but since it seems to have been very often interpreted this way elsewhere, I think the best thing to do for now is grant this subject the same allowance, until there's a clear consensus otherwise. I mean the alternative seems to be, for neutrality, make a project of renaming or merging all the abovementioned pages which... well I'd sure be surprised if that turns out to be a popular move, another reason to solicit commentary for consensus, I think. And good news is--thanks for this!--we have good sources so we're not really going risk leading readers astray with the content in the meantime. It's really just an issue of, how can we present the reliable information this even-handedly. Innisfree987 (talk) 02:50, 3 August 2016 (UTC)[reply]

Ah for accuracy: want to add I'm now noticing someone had proposed merging Goodman and Chaney's pages to an event page for their deaths--but it was more than a year ago and no discussion ever ensued, not even from the proposing editor (so I've removed the template for now). For whatever that info may be worth. Maybe just more reason to try to sort out an answer (especially once you--I--start reading about people who died in the Civil Rights Movement era, there are a pretty devastating number of entries for which this question could be relevant.) Innisfree987 (talk) 02:35, 4 August 2016 (UTC)[reply]

Relisted to generate a more thorough discussion and clearer consensus.
Please add new comments below this notice. Thanks, — Coffee // have a cup // beans // 07:04, 3 August 2016 (UTC)[reply]

Redirect to 1976 Soweto uprising (if he is mentioned there, otherwise delete) as stand alone article not merited. Quis separabit? 20:21, 5 August 2016 (UTC)[reply]
Update to say I've added two more secondary sources, in addition to E.M. Gregory's additions. Innisfree987 (talk) 22:43, 5 August 2016 (UTC)[reply]
~~Sadly, delete.~~ Selective Merge to Soweto uprising. I say sadly, because we need to work hard to avoid anglo-european-american bias. But, I just don't see any coverage in major news outlets which would support the claim of importance. I searched directly on the web sites of the NY Times, CNN, London Times (i.e. www.thetimes.co.uk), Times of India, BBC, and Al Jazeera. I got exactly zero results. Al Jazeera suggested an alternate spelling (Abiel Label), but that drew a blank too. Our own Find sources: "Abiel Lebelo" – news link comes up with exactly three hits. One is to Fox News (which is a joke as a serious news outlet) and doesn't even mention Lebelo by name. Another is The Daily Mail which mentions him in passing, in about the 20th paragraph. The third is in Jeune Afrique. That's written in French, which I don't read, so I had to rely on the auto-translation. But, again, this is about the riots, and only mentions Lebelo in passing, halfway through the article. So, I'm just not seeing the coverage we need to meet WP:N. -- RoySmith (talk) 17:06, 14 August 2016 (UTC)[reply]

I've updated my !vote to a merge. Based on my research above, it's clearly appropriate to mention him in that article. -- RoySmith (talk) 17:14, 14 August 2016 (UTC)[reply]

RoySmith, may I ask what you think of the sources already cited in the article? I believe only one of the nine sources there overlaps with what you found (the Jeune Afrique story you found and Lyral reference I cited are both based on the same Agence France Presse account). Innisfree987 (talk) 00:33, 15 August 2016 (UTC)[reply]

My first impression was that they weren't very good, which is why I did my own search. But, I'll make you my standard offer: if you can pick out the two, and no more than two best sources, I'll take another look at them. The best sources are those with the widest scope: a newspaper with an international readership is better than one that's strictly national, and a national paper is better than a local one. Try to keep that in mind as you select the two sources you'd like me to review. -- RoySmith (talk) 12:43, 15 August 2016 (UTC)[reply]

I'm not sure I see the utility of that approach; since WP:BASIC says notability can be met on the aggregate of multiple sources, it seems to me we shouldn't limit our examination to any two. But I'll be happy to summarize all those I understand as going toward notability, in case that may be helpful to anyone. (I'm leaving off a couple of sources that I understand as useful for content but not for notability but if anyone else has a different view of those, of course say so!)

1 & 2. International tertiary source (participants include McGill Univ, Univ of York, SMU, Ford Foundation, etc.; entries include secondary source references.) In first reference, three paragraphs on the student group where Lebelo was a leader, the actions they carried out, and then his death. Second reference is a section on another leader of the movement, contains two paragraphs about the group, Lebelo's role, and his eventual death. (Have just added those details to the WP entry, as I think they bear on the entry's importance.)

4. National secondary source, South African Broadcasting Company News segment on commemoration of Lebelo's death with plaque, including interviews with witnesses to his death.

6 (and I would imagine from identical headline, also 8 but it's paywalled for me). International secondary source, Associated Press, via Brockton Enterprise; third slide is a photo of the plaque for Lebelo, with a caption explaining he was among student protestors who were "gunned down by police, appalling the world." Or it's the seventh slide when the story ran on AP's main site, here.

7 & 9 (and also the story Jeune Afrique ran). International secondary source, Agence France Presse. Picked up by outlets on at least three countries, two continents. Different places ran slightly different versions but all cite ceremony unveiling plaque in honor of Lebelo's death, and the following march along the path Lebelo and peers took when police opened fire on them; then the story opens out on how this commemoration bears on South African politics today.

Though individually the sources are limited, together the international notice across countries/continents feels well beyond trivial or routine coverage to me. In any case I hope this summary will be helpful to others in assessing. Innisfree987 (talk) 18:33, 15 August 2016 (UTC)[reply]

The above discussion is preserved as an archive of the debate. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this page.