Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/2020 Russian Mil Mi-24 shootdown

The following discussion is an archived debate of the proposed deletion of the article below. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this page.

The result was no consensus. This could be closed as merge, as it has been done previously, however there is no one coming up in favor of merge after second relisting. (non-admin closure) SMB9 9thx my edits! 07:30, 29 November 2020 (UTC)[reply]

2020 Russian Mil Mi-24 shootdown[edit]

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WP:NOTNEWS WP:GNG, common sense. Non-notable military incident with no consequences to aviation regulations or procedures and minimal diplomatic consequences. Military accidents/incidents are generally not notable in their own right. Petebutt (talk) 03:13, 10 November 2020 (UTC)[reply]

Note: This discussion has been included in the list of Military-related deletion discussions. Shellwood (talk) 03:22, 10 November 2020 (UTC)[reply]

Note: This discussion has been included in the list of Aviation-related deletion discussions. Shellwood (talk) 03:22, 10 November 2020 (UTC)[reply]

Note: This discussion has been included in the list of Azerbaijan-related deletion discussions. Shellwood (talk) 03:22, 10 November 2020 (UTC)[reply]

Note: This discussion has been included in the list of Russia-related deletion discussions. Shellwood (talk) 03:22, 10 November 2020 (UTC)[reply]

Weak Keep Sourced and can be improved by creator. Another chance should be given. Note to nominator: Under with Wikipedia key policies and guidelines does your AfD fall under? BlueD954 (talk) 04:13, 10 November 2020 (UTC)[reply]

Note: This discussion has been included in the list of Events-related deletion discussions. CAPTAIN RAJU^(T) 08:39, 10 November 2020 (UTC)[reply]

Delete a helicopter being shot down simply isn't notable unless there is a wider impact which doesn't appear to be the case here. WP is WP:NOTNEWS. Mztourist (talk) 09:08, 10 November 2020 (UTC)[reply]
Delete just not of note for a stand-alone article and is already mentioned at List of aircraft shootdowns which is all that is needed. MilborneOne (talk) 12:57, 10 November 2020 (UTC)[reply]
Delete per MilborneOne Mjroots (talk) 13:31, 10 November 2020 (UTC)[reply]
Delete Per nom. --SalmanZ (talk) 16:20, 12 November 2020 (UTC)[reply]
Keep It was important and serious incident as all experts told. Last time that happened the same thing, there was heavily consequences in Turkey-Russia relations. You can not decide because it doesn't have consequences now, it can have consequences after. I'm very surprised that almost everyone want deletes this...A real pity...--KajenCAT (talk) 21:02, 12 November 2020 (UTC)[reply]
Keep and add Analysis, the ones who are not familiar with Nagorno-Karabakh conflict may think that this incident is not important, however the section Analysis needs to be add in order to prove the notability . Sincerely, Գարիկ Ավագյան (talk) 10:49, 14 November 2020 (UTC)[reply]

Գարիկ Ավագյան, this seems a textbook example of WP:ASSERTN. Can you explain why you think the subject is notable? —Brigade Piron (talk) 17:21, 17 November 2020 (UTC)[reply]

Brigade Piron, there is still investigation going on this incident. We need a bit more time for serious analysis, however there are already claims from experts that the main purpose was to disrupt the ceasefire agreement in Karabakh. And probably, this was done from Turkish border/by Turkey. After this incident, the agreement were signed between three countries, not including Turkey itself. So, this incident is a precedent of the end of 2020 Karabakh War. I suggest not to remove immediately, but to wait a bit more. Sincerely, Գարիկ Ավագյան (talk) 17:56, 17 November 2020 (UTC)[reply]

Գարիկ Ավագյան, that sounds like WP:CRYSTAL? —Brigade Piron (talk) 20:12, 17 November 2020 (UTC)[reply]

Delete, per nom. I hate to think how Wikipedia would have dealt with World War II if it had been a contemporary conflict. —Brigade Piron (talk) 14:43, 14 November 2020 (UTC)[reply]
- I assume that almost half of the 6 million articles would be associated with it, with people giving so much coverage to the smallest events. – SmartyPants22 (talk) 20:38, 15 November 2020 (UTC)[reply]
Merge, with other articles on the conflict. No need for a standalone article on one helicopter being shot down, when hundreds of vehicles/aircraft were destroyed. – SmartyPants22 (talk) 20:36, 15 November 2020 (UTC)[reply]
Keep Azerbaijan, which had been resisting ceasefire efforts for weeks, agreed to a Russian-brokered peace deal just one day after shooting down this Russian military helicopter. I think that the notability of this incident is clear. --JECE (talk) 23:07, 15 November 2020 (UTC)[reply]
Keep there are tons of similar articles. Why should this one in particular be deleted? Super Ψ Dro 01:16, 16 November 2020 (UTC)[reply]
- WP:OSE, is not a valid argument at by any stretch of the imagination. – SmartyPants22 (talk) 20:49, 16 November 2020 (UTC)[reply]

That does not explain by any stretch of the imagination why is this article supposedly less notable than others. Super Ψ Dro 00:40, 17 November 2020 (UTC)[reply]

Keep. Shooting down a Russian helicopter (only Russian kit hit during the conflict) ended with a profuse apology and peace accord later that night. Vici Vidi (talk) 09:50, 16 November 2020 (UTC)[reply]
Keep. Per Գարիկ Ավագյան. Śαǿturα^💬 21:56, 16 November 2020 (UTC)[reply]
Merge to the conflict article. We don't generally cover military aircraft shootdowns in conflict - it's WP:ROTM because that's what war is - and while the results of this shootdown may have been the armistice that's relevant to the conflict as a whole, the shootdown itself is not individually notable and notability is not inherited. - The Bushranger _{One ping only} 17:55, 17 November 2020 (UTC)[reply]

The Bushranger:

1. The shootdown is not WP:ROTM for at least two reasons. Firstly, it was a shootdown of the military aircraft of a non-belligerent power. It is not run-of-the-mill to shoot down military aircraft from a power you are not at war with. Secondly, the shootdown did not occur in a warzone. There were no hostilities near the Nakhchivan-Armenian border. It is not run-of-the-mill to shoot down military aircraft far from a warzone.

2. As for the "notability is not inherited" argument, I'm not sure why you think that it applies. If the shootdown lead to the armistice, it is only because the shootdown was independently notable, because it could have drawn Russia into a conflict with Azerbaijan, which could have led to a Russo-Turkish war. Even if it had been an Armenian aircraft that was shot down, it could have triggered the Russo-Armenian mutual defense treaties (the CSTO and a separate 1997 treaty) and Russia's entry into the war given that the shootdown occurred inside Armenian airspace proper. So no, the shootdown was not simply an event that may have led to the ceasefire. It was already notable before the ceasefire.

--JECE (talk) 15:50, 18 November 2020 (UTC)[reply]

Weak merge per Bushranger. Firestar464 (talk) 11:02, 18 November 2020 (UTC)[reply]

Relisted to generate a more thorough discussion and clearer consensus.
Relisting comment: I initially closed this as merge but have been asked to allow more opportunity for discussion, which is not a bad thing in general terms
Please add new comments below this notice. Thanks, Spartaz ^Humbug! 20:11, 21 November 2020 (UTC)[reply]

Delete per Mztourist: a helicopter being shot down simply isn't notable unless there is a wider impact which doesn't appear to be the case here. WP is WP:NOTNEWS. // Timothy :: talk 17:08, 22 November 2020 (UTC)[reply]
Delete Expectable military accident during then-ongoing war, only 2 deaths, no notable victims. Brandmeister^talk 13:04, 23 November 2020 (UTC)[reply]

The above discussion is preserved as an archive of the debate. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this page.