Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/2008–09 Newport County A.F.C. season

The following discussion is an archived debate of the proposed deletion of the article below. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this page.

The result was delete. Whilst there was some claim to GNG, comments post that claim did not agree, many of the keep votes are not clearly grounded in guidelines. Happy to restore to any userspace where an editor feels they can work on it towards GNG. Fenix down (talk) 07:22, 29 August 2020 (UTC)[reply]

2008–09 Newport County A.F.C. season[edit]

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fails WP:NSEASONS and WP:GNG Microwave Anarchist (talk) 23:56, 8 August 2020 (UTC)[reply]

Note: This discussion has been included in the list of Events-related deletion discussions. Microwave Anarchist (talk) 23:56, 8 August 2020 (UTC)[reply]

Note: This discussion has been included in the list of Football-related deletion discussions. Microwave Anarchist (talk) 23:56, 8 August 2020 (UTC)[reply]

Note: This discussion has been included in the list of Wales-related deletion discussions. Microwave Anarchist (talk) 23:56, 8 August 2020 (UTC)[reply]

Keep There is a longstanding distinction between non-league teams' seasons, and former/present League teams that have previous non-league seasons. Owain (talk) 10:41, 9 August 2020 (UTC)[reply]

@Owain: the same longstanding distinction that saw this deleted. There is no such distinction and there is concensus that the cut-off point for NSEASONS is League Two. There is no evidence of GNG within the article and I struggled to find anything bar routine coverage of this season. Microwave Anarchist (talk) 13:13, 9 August 2020 (UTC)[reply]

I seem to recall this discussion happening over AFC Wimbledon seasons too, where the non-league season articles were put up for deletion. They were not, because the argument goes that as a notable team, as long as the season articles had general notability references that would trump NSEASONS. The same applies here. Owain (talk) 15:32, 9 August 2020 (UTC)[reply]

@Owain: The only AFD I could find for an AFC Wimbledon article was this, where a single editor made that claim against consensus. The consensus is that League Two is the cut-off point for season articles, and anything lower requires GNG to be met. Microwave Anarchist (talk) 16:17, 9 August 2020 (UTC)[reply]

There was a discussion at Wikipedia talk:WikiProject Football/Archive 71#AFC_Wimbledon_seasons from 2012 where the same arguments were brought up, but that did not result in the deletion of any of the articles. Owain (talk) 16:45, 9 August 2020 (UTC)[reply]

I believe that was merely stating that because of the nature of AFC Wimbledon as a club, GNG-level sourcing was likely. There was no claim that it passed NSEASONS. Microwave Anarchist (talk) 16:55, 9 August 2020 (UTC)[reply]

User:Owain - they are correct. Such articles about teams usually playing in the football league, but with some non-league seasons are kept if they are notable. And it's the sourcing in the article that's the best proof of that. So start improving the article! Nfitz (talk) 05:35, 10 August 2020 (UTC)[reply]

Delete per nom Spiderone 17:21, 9 August 2020 (UTC)[reply]
Keep Essential in retaining the full history of a current (fourth tier) Football League club online, this is the reformation season for Newport (County) AFC, notable and clearly significant under WP:NSEASONS.Pwimageglow (talk) 10:52, 10 August 2020 (UTC)[reply]

@Pwimageglow: - how is it clearly significant under NSEASONS? I don't think wikiproject football would take too kindly for me creating articles for every single Craley Town season. I don't particularly agree with the deletion of articles in general and perhaps deleting this doesn't achieve much but this article clearly fails all notability guidelines. Microwave Anarchist (talk) 11:00, 10 August 2020 (UTC)[reply]

I expect the early Crawley Town seasons would be hard to source references for, but all Newport seasons are easy to reference, including beyond-routine game coverage from the BBC, Times, Guardian, &c. Owain (talk) 10:13, 11 August 2020 (UTC)[reply]

@Owain: Where is this beyond routine game coverage from national media outlets then? I certainly can't find anything. The Guardian, for example, has 3 articles between 1 July 2008 and 30 June 2009 with 'Newport County' mentioned, one in an article about Ipswich Town in the 1930s, another about Weymouth Town's financial difficulties and the third being an article about football clubs sponsored by bands. The BBC doesn't do match reports for the sixth tier as far as I'm concerned and the article at the moment has nothing more than routine coverage. Microwave Anarchist (talk) 10:39, 11 August 2020 (UTC)[reply]

The article itself has two BBC Sport references that are not routine match reports. For comparison the 2003–04 AFC Wimbledon season article has no non-routine references. Owain (talk) 10:58, 11 August 2020 (UTC)[reply]

@Owain: They are routine transfer announcements and do nothing to prove the notability of the season. If they don't exist for the AFC Wimbledon article, that will prbably be AfDed too in the near future. Microwave Anarchist (talk) 11:12, 11 August 2020 (UTC)[reply]

Announcing a former Premier League striker as manager of a non-league team is not a "routine transfer announcement". Owain (talk) 11:24, 11 August 2020 (UTC)[reply]

That articles coverage may be slightly more than WP:ROUTINE actually, but it only suggests that the player is notable, not the season. Even if that did satisfy GNG, which it clearly doesn't, there would still have to be signofocant coverage in another reliable secondary source. Microwave Anarchist (talk) 11:29, 11 August 2020 (UTC)[reply]

Keep As it documents an important part of the history of a club that has spent 68 seasons in the Football League.Zebroski (talk) 13:49, 11 August 2020 (UTC)[reply]

Note: This discussion has been included in WikiProject Football's list of association football-related deletions. Giant Snowman 11:24, 10 August 2020 (UTC)[reply]

Delete - no evidence of notability. If people want an article detailing the history of this club, create a wider one at History of Newport County A.F.C.; no need at all for a number of non-notable season specific articles. Giant Snowman 11:27, 10 August 2020 (UTC)[reply]

There can be reliably sourced prose for 25 seasons. If they were all combined into one giant page it would become to large and would require splitting. Wikipedia:Article size gives a range of 30 to 50KB for the comfortable size of a single article, and this 2008-09 page is already 30KB. What benefit would there be in combining them all together? Owain (talk) 10:21, 11 August 2020 (UTC)[reply]

Delete Fails WP:NSEASONS. Number 57 19:25, 10 August 2020 (UTC)[reply]
- Also, please note that the keep !votes from Pwimageglow and Zebroski appear to be as a result of this off-wiki canvassing by Owain. I presume they will be discarded and Owain sanctioned. Cheers, Number 5 7 20:25, 10 August 2020 (UTC)[reply]

I can confirm that no-one canvassed me, nor would I be influenced (or concerned) if anyone did. Wiki is only maintained and valuable because of the goodwill and consensus of contributors. Your silly bullying in order to force your view on others is despicable and against the spirit of wiki collaboration. I presume your vote will be discarded and you will be sanctioned for your insulting and childish accusations.Zebroski (talk) 13:45, 11 August 2020 (UTC)[reply]

So it's just a coincidence that after over a month with no activity and within a day of the post being made on the Newport forum, your first edits happen to be comments on the two AfDs highlighted? Number 5 7 13:52, 11 August 2020 (UTC)[reply]

Yes. I edited a number of pages on 10&11Aug, 6July and 17-23June. So what? In your mind how many wiki updates and when entitle a contributor to have an opinion? Have you checked the update history of those that agree with your biased opinion? No. Not that it's any of your business... I browsed many wiki pages between updates but I was rather busy working on a covid ward in July. If you want to waste your life deleting perfectly acceptable content and picking silly online fights that's your choice. You are a rather petty bully. Please Don't waste more of my time.Zebroski (talk) 18:13, 12 August 2020 (UTC)[reply]

Oh do grow up. Zebroski is a regular contributor to Newport season articles, as well you know. It is this constant questioning of motives, and relentless searching of contributors' histories that puts people off creating anything. Owain (talk) 10:39, 12 August 2020 (UTC)[reply]

@Owain: Doesn't take anything away from the fact that you blatantly violated WP:CANVASS. Microwave Anarchist (talk) 18:33, 12 August 2020 (UTC)[reply]

Now it is my turn to tell you to grow up. Somebody with the name 'Owain' on the Exiles message board requested people join in a deletion conversation. You have absolutely no proof it was me. You do realise that 'Owain' is quite a common name in Wales, don't you? You do realise that people use aliases and not their real names online, don't you? You do realise that sitting in an ivory tower bossing people around, bullying them, questioning their motivation and threatening arbitrary sanctions is not a good way to influence people positively? I get that wielding Wiki-power is some sort of ego trip for people, but do step away from the keyboard occasionally. Owain (talk) 18:50, 13 August 2020 (UTC)[reply]

I've not threatened anyone with anything - I am merely following Wikipedia guidelines. You are absolutely right, however, about the fact that I live in an ivory tower. Microwave Anarchist (talk) 22:00, 13 August 2020 (UTC)[reply]

Nice try, but you admitted on the other AfD to the canvassing. The self-righteous indignation is in poor faith. Ravenswing 03:01, 17 August 2020 (UTC)[reply]

How is getting people notified of proposed deletion a bad thing? I was not notified of the proposed deletion of the 1989 article, despite having created it. Owain (talk) 10:04, 11 August 2020 (UTC)[reply]

Honestly, how do you not know this if you've been editing since 2003? See WP:CANVASS, and specifically WP:STEALTH. Your notice on the other website was not neutral as you specifically requested people "contest the deletion". Number 5 7 10:45, 11 August 2020 (UTC)[reply]

As a result of ridiculous bureaucracy, people including me rarely edit any more so would not have got the deletion notification. That is if people bother doing it correctly in the first place. Where was my notification of the proposed deletion of the 1989 article for instance? Of course people will want to protect their hard work from deletion. Getting people notified is the job of the deletion proposer and the author of the article. If no-one knows then these specious AfDs will pass with no contest at all. Owain (talk) 10:56, 11 August 2020 (UTC)[reply]

Why are you suggesting that Owain be sanctioned, User:Number 57? WP:STEALTH doesn't ban off-wiki canvassing - it merely discourages it. We also discourage people AFDing an article, without notifying the creator - and yet no one is proposing sanctions for that violation! Nfitz (talk) 21:38, 12 August 2020 (UTC)[reply]

That is not true User:Ravenswing - I explicitly added text and references (which looked far more non-routine to what's here) to that article, and I never even looked at the main article, so the text and sourcing was not in the main article. How is what's here not routine for a sixth tier club? I see a lot more historical discussion of that (1989-90) season than I do of 2008-09. Nfitz (talk) 22:19, 16 August 2020 (UTC)[reply]

Keep has national coverage here and here. Perhaps seasons of the perennial number 3 football club in Wales is notable even when it slips below the fully-professional tier. Nfitz (talk) 00:38, 17 August 2020 (UTC)[reply]

Relisted to generate a more thorough discussion and clearer consensus.
Relisting comment: Not really seeing consensus here and some indication of GNG. Further discussion required.
Please add new comments below this notice. Thanks, Fenix down (talk) 08:45, 18 August 2020 (UTC)[reply]

Delete Fails NSEASONS and GNG. REDMAN 2019 (talk) 13:00, 23 August 2020 (UTC)[reply]
Delete, Wikipedia is not a sports almanac. Stifle (talk) 15:49, 27 August 2020 (UTC)[reply]

The above discussion is preserved as an archive of the debate. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this page.