Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/1989–90 Newport A.F.C. season

The following discussion is an archived debate of the proposed deletion of the article below. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this page.

The result was delete. Consensus is narrow and the call, as one participant noted, is tough, but it is correctly argued that there is no allowance under WP:NSEASONS for an article on a season for a team playing at a league of this level, ~~locally reported and~~ sparsely sourced. Per WP:PRESERVE, I am redirecting the title to Newport County A.F.C.#Reformation and exile. BD2412 T 20:32, 14 August 2020 (UTC)[reply]

1989–90 Newport A.F.C. season[edit]

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Largely unsourced ninth tier English league club season that fails WP:NSEASONS. There are books covering Newport's history (Amber in the blood, Newport County AFC The First 100 Years) but I'm not sure if they are enough to make this season pass WP:GNG. Dougal18 (talk) 18:38, 26 July 2020 (UTC)[reply]

Note: This discussion has been included in the list of Football-related deletion discussions. Megan Barris (Lets talk📧) 18:41, 26 July 2020 (UTC)[reply]

Note: This discussion has been included in the list of Wales-related deletion discussions. Megan Barris (Lets talk📧) 18:41, 26 July 2020 (UTC)[reply]

Note: This discussion has been included in WikiProject Football's list of association football-related deletions. Giant Snowman 11:29, 27 July 2020 (UTC)[reply]

Delete - no evidence of notability. Giant Snowman 11:30, 27 July 2020 (UTC)[reply]
Delete per nom. Govvy (talk) 16:44, 27 July 2020 (UTC)[reply]
Delete Clear WP:NSEASONS failure. Number 5 7 12:27, 29 July 2020 (UTC)[reply]
Delete per nom. Olaf Kosinsky (talk) 09:02, 2 August 2020 (UTC)[reply]
Keep Essential in retaining the full history of a current (fourth tier) Football League club online, this is the reformation season for Newport (County) AFC, notable and clearly significant under WP:NSEASONS. All of the other non-league seasons leading back to the regaining of league status are also important to clarify both the time and duration of the Exile and the location of the club through history - two separate spells playing in Exile and a High Court case are all interwoven into the early years of Newport (County) AFC and the court case in particular needs the context of the club's experiences. All information is sourced from the relatively sparse information still available or online (there is a huge archive of club history through South Wales Argus but not online) - unsure why there would be any reason to delete. Sjg99 (talk • 13:02, 2 August 2020 (UTC)[reply]
Keep This page should be kept as this was the first season of the reformation of what was then a new club, after the previous Newport County went out of business in March 1989. This was the start, that eventually lead them back into the Football League, and in the last few seasons become internationally known due to their runs in the FA Cup in both 2017-18 and 2018-19. There must have been pages in the past that would have confirmed this, but the pages are no longer in existence Darrin01 14:24, 2 August 2020 (UTC)[reply]
Keep This season is famous throughout football, with the then-rare reformation in a much lower league, and the exile to play in England - the source (according to one 2013 article I added) of their well-known nickname 'The Exiles'. You still see frequent references to this season in current media, and I've added some to the article - including recent celebrations of the 30th anniversary of this season. Hard to find contemporary sources, but I added one very good in-depth detailed 1989 article from The Guardian. The season meets GNG. Nfitz (talk) 19:56, 2 August 2020 (UTC)[reply]

Relisted to generate a more thorough discussion and clearer consensus.
Please add new comments below this notice. Thanks, Fenix down (talk) 07:12, 3 August 2020 (UTC)[reply]

Comment A sudden influx of Keeps forces this Afd into a second week. Newport's non league years are dealt with on the club article. There is no notability for those seasons just because they later regain League status, have FA Cup runs, the local newspaper/Guardian wrote about them or the season being referenced in articles about a friendly. Dougal18 (talk) 17:59, 3 August 2020 (UTC)[reply]

You'll find that the The Guardian is not a local paper - a full-half page in The Guardian easily passes muster. And if I could find archives contemporary articles for other major UK papers other than Guardian (or Observer), there'd easily be more. There's continuing coverage of this season decades later - and not just local or on the 30th anniversary, as other references added show. The season easily passes GNG - which trumps NSEASON. Nfitz (talk) 20:51, 3 August 2020 (UTC)[reply]

Delete You cannot seriously be trying to keep a season article for a team that was playing in the ~~9th~~ 8th tier of English football that season. If you want more info about this season then maybe add a section to the club's article at Newport County A.F.C.. But do not keep a whole article about it, which is basically what this is. REDMAN 2019 (talk) 09:56, 7 August 2020 (UTC)[reply]

Actually now that I think about it. All Newport County season articles up to 2013 should be deleted as they are all non-league seasons to. REDMAN 2019 (talk) 09:59, 7 August 2020 (UTC)[reply]

~~I think the Hellenic was seventh-tier at the time. Microwave Anarchist (talk) 21:16, 7 August 2020 (UTC)~~[reply]

Sorry, it was the eighth tier of English football at the time, prior to the creation of the National League N/S in 2004. Microwave Anarchist (talk) 21:21, 7 August 2020 (UTC)[reply]

Yep, exactly, create a History of Newport A.F.C. which covers full history, including non-league times - does not need a separate article(s). Giant Snowman 11:01, 9 August 2020 (UTC)[reply]

Pinging @Nfitz: to see what they think about it. REDMAN 2019 (talk) 11:31, 9 August 2020 (UTC)[reply]

I'm surprised there isn't a history of Newport page ... and were there, it might be a suitable redirect and merge target, with a paragraph for each seaason. But there isn't, and meanwhile the season easily meets GNG - with more prose and referencing than many an article for top-tier season. Nfitz (talk) 23:16, 9 August 2020 (UTC)[reply]

By all means create a page about the club's history. But the season articles should go. REDMAN 2019 (talk) 10:23, 10 August 2020 (UTC)[reply]

You are the one unnecessarily proposing deletion. By all means go create a page! Nfitz (talk) 04:17, 14 August 2020 (UTC)[reply]

@Nfitz: I don't know much about the club's history and would not be of much use making a page about it, I was suggesting you make it because you seem to know a lot about the club's history and would probably be better then me at making said article. And what would be the point of creating the page if this kind of stuff was kept? By the way it was Dougal18 who AFD'ed this article. Not me. REDMAN 2019 (talk) 11:59, 14 August 2020 (UTC)[reply]

Delete - fails NSEASONS Spiderone 22:16, 8 August 2020 (UTC)[reply]
Keep As it documents an important part of the history of a club that has spent 68 seasons in the Football League. Owain (talk) 16:40, 9 August 2020 (UTC)[reply]
Keep Essential in retaining the full history of a current (fourth tier) Football League club online, this is the reformation season for Newport (County) AFC, notable and clearly significant under WP:NSEASONS.Pwimageglow (talk) 10:51, 10 August 2020 (UTC)[reply]
Keep As it documents an important part of the history of a club that has spent 68 seasons in the Football League.10:54, 10 August 2020 (UTC)
Comment The last two !votes (including one by an editor absent for over a month) appear to be as a result of this off-wiki canvassing by Owain. I presume they will be discarded and Owain sanctioned. Cheers, Number 5 7 20:23, 10 August 2020 (UTC)[reply]
I can confirm that no-one canvassed me, nor would I be influenced (or concerned) if anyone did. Wiki is only maintained and valuable because of the goodwill and consensus of contributors. Your silly bullying in order to force your view on others is despicable and against the spirit of wiki collaboration. I presume your vote will be discarded and you will be sanctioned for your insulting and childish accusations.Zebroski (talk) 13:33, 11 August 2020 (UTC)[reply]
So it's just a coincidence that after over a month with no activity and within a day of the post being made on the Newport forum, your first edits happen to be comments on the two AfDs highlighted? Number 5 7 13:51, 11 August 2020 (UTC)[reply]
Yes. I edited a number of pages on 10&11Aug, 6July and 17-23June. So what? In your mind how many wiki updates and when entitle a contributor to have an opinion? Have you checked the update history of those that agree with your biased opinion? No. Not that it's any of your business... I browsed many wiki pages between updates but I was rather busy working on a covid ward in July. If you want to waste your life deleting perfectly acceptable content and picking silly online fights that's your choice. You are a rather petty bully. Please Don't waste more of my time.Zebroski (talk) 18:10, 12 August 2020 (UTC)[reply]

Hold your horses there. Absolutely, Owain's vote should be struck and a stern lecture delivered. But Pwimageglow has an extensive recent history of editing football articles, including Newport AFC-related articles (including season articles). In like fashion, Zebroski's recent edit history is almost entirely football-related, with numerous edits to Newport AFC-related articles (including season articles). By the bye, your own edit history shows a break of over a year. Would you have cared for charges that your "sudden" return was suspiciously timed? Your accusations against them show poor faith, and you owe them apologies. Ravenswing 22:53, 12 August 2020 (UTC)[reply]
My vote should be struck? Why? I created the article and I was NOT notified about its deletion. How many other people would object to deletion and were not notified? People do not spend their whole lives refreshing Wikipedia pages waiting for notification. We have other things to do with our lives! How exactly are people supposed to find out about AfDs? Frankly, the whole process is a shambles. I too have a history of editing Newport County articles, like Zebroski and Pwimageglow, so why should my vote not count, but some random person with no interest in the club's will? Owain (talk) 18:20, 13 August 2020 (UTC)[reply]
Delete - This article fails WP:NSEASONS as they wasn't in a professional league at the time they played in this season. The best solution for this would probably be to put it under the History of Newport A.F.C. section which people have suggested. HawkAussie (talk) 06:54, 11 August 2020 (UTC)[reply]
Delete: A lot of muddled thinking all around. On the one hand, that this season is allegedly crucial to Newport AFC's history is all well and good, but that rationale forms no part of any notability criteria on Wikipedia, and it is unsupported by any reliable source cited. On the other, NSEASONS does not require that such seasons be top-flight, and indeed the lengthy discussion of American (decidedly not-professional) college sport in the guideline confirms that.
But all that being said, no reasonable case for this subject's notability has been established. This season is crucial in the team's history? Fair enough, I'll buy that. Why look, it's not only discussed in the main article, but in the article's lead as well, which for a team with over a hundred years of history is pretty thorough. And look, all the prose from the season article's also in the main article. So what we are doing here, essentially, is debating the notability of match results from a ninth tier club with fewer than 400 fans a game. That would take a powerful lot to overcome, and that burden of proof has not been met. Ravenswing 22:40, 12 August 2020 (UTC)[reply]

I don't see how, User:Ravenswing how all the prose here could be in that article, given that I added new prose and references to this article after the AFD, and I've barely read or edited the main article. Also, we do have articles from reliable sources - such as the comprehensive piece in FourFourTwo. The season itself certainly had significant contemporary coverage, such as the Guardian reference. Nfitz (talk) 04:17, 14 August 2020 (UTC)[reply]

"Due to the club being unable to secure the lease on Somerton Park the season was spent ground sharing at Moreton-in-Marsh in Gloucestershire, England. They spent the season playing at London Road, earning their enduring nickname, The Exiles." / "The club took on the name "Newport A.F.C." and adopted the nickname The Exiles, as a result of having to play home matches for the 1989–90 season at the London Road ground in the north Gloucestershire town of Moreton-in-Marsh, 80 miles (130 km) north-east of Newport."

"Newport finished the season as cup winners and league champions of the Hellenic League Premier Division with promotion to the Southern League." / "Newport won the Hellenic double, gaining promotion to the Southern League."

That's how. Ravenswing 05:30, 14 August 2020 (UTC)[reply]

That's literally different text. With different references. It's not the same prose! Nor is any of the text about the 30th anniversary of the season in the main article. Nfitz (talk) 11:01, 14 August 2020 (UTC)[reply]

Delete. Wikipedia is not a sports almanac. Stifle (talk) 15:41, 13 August 2020 (UTC)[reply]
Delete It's a tough call, but I'm not seeing that GNG is met here. I can see plenty on the club's liquidation but this can be adequately covered in the main club article or even a History of Newport County A.F.C. page. I'm not seeing significant coverage of the actual season itself. The Guardian article is something, but one newspaper piece isn't enough. Kosack (talk) 09:08, 14 August 2020 (UTC)[reply]

As I pointed out above, other than the Observer, the Guardian was the only major paper from 1990 I could access an archive. Do you really suggest User:Kosack that there wasn't similar coverage in the other papers? Should I fill the entire page with references to the Guardian and Observer from that year? I believe GNG has been met. Nfitz (talk) 11:01, 14 August 2020 (UTC)[reply]

I'm not suggesting there was no other coverage but, if it can't be provided, how are we supposed to know it does? If the Guardian or Observer have more in-depth coverage then by all means include it, they are national newspapers so sustained coverage from them would go a long way to proving notability. Right now, the AfD is 3 weeks in and there is still only one substantial source on the page. WP:NSEASONS doesn't allow the presumption of notability for non-league seasons either. Kosack (talk) 11:21, 14 August 2020 (UTC)[reply]

The above discussion is preserved as an archive of the debate. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this page.