Wikipedia:Categories for discussion/Log/2021 January 15

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January 15[edit]

Category:Films scored by Bharathwaj[edit]

The following is an archived discussion concerning one or more categories. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on an appropriate discussion page (such as the category's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this section.
The result of the discussion was: merge to Category:Films scored by Bharadwaj (music director). (non-admin closure) --Trialpears (talk) 22:40, 11 February 2021 (UTC)[reply]
Added on relisting, 15 Jan 2021:
Nominator's rationale: Match the parent article, Bharadwaj (music director). Kailash29792 (talk) 14:21, 16 November 2020 (UTC)[reply]
Relisted to generate a more thorough discussion and clearer consensus.
Please add new comments below this notice. Thanks, Zeke, the Mad Horrorist (Speak quickly) (Follow my trail) 17:12, 29 November 2020 (UTC)[reply]
  • Rename Category:Films scored by Ramani Bharadwaj, to match all the others in the parent category. No matter that s/he uses only one name on press releases or film credits, there will be conflicts; it is an incredibly common name! Note the subcategories should probably be merged here, too. We don't usually have things like "Canadian films scores by <foo>" and "Quebecois films scores by <foo>". We just categorize music by nationality of the composer. KISS.
    William Allen Simpson (talk) 20:49, 29 November 2020 (UTC)[reply]
  • GOF is correct in his 23 November comment. Ultimately it should be renamed to Category:Films scored by Bharadwaj (music director) per WP:C2D but that will require a fresh nomination including subcats. Marcocapelle (talk) 20:18, 28 December 2020 (UTC)[reply]
Relisted to generate a more thorough discussion and clearer consensus.
Relisting comment: adding sub-cats.
Please add new comments below this notice. Thanks, – Fayenatic London 20:34, 15 January 2021 (UTC)[reply]
  • Nice catch! I would be inclined to propose upmerging all of them. Marcocapelle (talk) 10:40, 17 January 2021 (UTC)[reply]
  • Agree. So often, we are barely looking at the issue in front of us, re-listed twice, rather than the whole picture. This decision should be recorded as precedent for dealing with the others.
    William Allen Simpson (talk) 12:42, 17 January 2021 (UTC)[reply]
The above is preserved as an archive of the discussion. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the category's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this section.

Category:Murdered diplomats[edit]

The following is an archived discussion concerning one or more categories. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on an appropriate discussion page (such as the category's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this section.
The result of the discussion was: delete. Good Ol’factory (talk) 01:08, 25 January 2021 (UTC)[reply]
Nominator's rationale: Trivial intersection. No notable WP:DEFINING link between the occupation and the manner of death. Not commonly and consistently expected as a professional hazard or qualification. There may have been many years between the occupation and the death, making the link even weaker.
Note: Sources about the death of a person will often discuss both their occupation and their cause of death. This doesn't make this intersection any more notable than a combination with other aspects often discussed in such notices, such as their number of children.
In this case, there is only 1 entry, who was murdered on vacation by somebody having an affair with his wife.
William Allen Simpson (talk) 19:02, 15 January 2021 (UTC)[reply]
The above is preserved as an archive of the discussion. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the category's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this section.

Category:Murdered educators[edit]

The following is an archived discussion concerning one or more categories. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on an appropriate discussion page (such as the category's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this section.
The result of the discussion was: delete. Good Ol’factory (talk) 01:08, 25 January 2021 (UTC)[reply]
Nominator's rationale: Trivial intersection. No notable WP:DEFINING link between the occupation and the manner of death. Not commonly and consistently expected as a professional hazard or qualification. There may have been many years between the occupation and the death, making the link even weaker.
Note: Sources about the death of a person will often discuss both their occupation and their cause of death. This doesn't make this intersection any more notable than a combination with other aspects often discussed in such notices, such as their number of children.
William Allen Simpson (talk) 18:38, 15 January 2021 (UTC)[reply]
The above is preserved as an archive of the discussion. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the category's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this section.

Category:Government of the Afsharid Empire[edit]

The following is an archived discussion concerning one or more categories. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on an appropriate discussion page (such as the category's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this section.
The result of the discussion was: delete. Good Ol’factory (talk) 01:07, 25 January 2021 (UTC)[reply]
Nominator's rationale: delete per WP:OVERLAPCAT, this category only contains biographies, which are already categorized in Category:People of the Afsharid Empire. Marcocapelle (talk) 17:21, 15 January 2021 (UTC)[reply]
The above is preserved as an archive of the discussion. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the category's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this section.

Art Nouveau architecture by city[edit]

Relisted, see Wikipedia:Categories for discussion/Log/2021 January 29#Art Nouveau architecture by city

Category:American Statesmen[edit]

The following is an archived discussion concerning one or more categories. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on an appropriate discussion page (such as the category's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this section.
The result of the discussion was: delete. Good Ol’factory (talk) 01:05, 25 January 2021 (UTC)[reply]
Nominator's rationale: One-article new category that duplicates Category:American politicians Le Deluge (talk) 16:49, 15 January 2021 (UTC)[reply]
The above is preserved as an archive of the discussion. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the category's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this section.

Category:American players of American football by descent[edit]

The following is an archived discussion concerning one or more categories. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on an appropriate discussion page (such as the category's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this section.
The result of the discussion was: delete, merging content to Category:American sportspeople of Mexican descent and Category:Jewish American sportspeople. Good Ol’factory (talk) 03:18, 27 January 2021 (UTC)[reply]
Nominator's rationale: Per WP:OCEGRS, these are non-notable intersections because they are not well-defined topics in established sources. User:Namiba 16:38, 15 January 2021 (UTC)[reply]
  • I believe that this category should be here, because there is one for baseball and basketball.— Preceding unsigned comment added by Bigmike2346 (talk • contribs) 2021-01-15 17:31:43 (UTC)
  • I created the football category because there was one for baseball and basketball already so unless all of those are being deleted, with that logic this one should stay — Preceding unsigned comment added by Bigmike2346 (talk • contribs) 2021-01-15 17:34:39 (UTC)
@Bigmike2346: WP:OTHERSTUFFEXISTS-UCO2009bluejay (talk) 02:27, 18 January 2021 (UTC)[reply]
  • Delete Merge per nom. Please also nominate the baseball and basketball siblings. Marcocapelle (talk) 19:57, 15 January 2021 (UTC)[reply]
Jewish people have a distinct and studied history in both baseball and basketball. See [1] and [2] for examples. I would oppose those nominations.--User:Namiba 00:50, 16 January 2021 (UTC)[reply]
Should these be merged into Category:American sportspeople of Mexican descent and Category:Jewish American sportspeople?--User:Namiba 00:51, 16 January 2021 (UTC)[reply]
Upmerging, rather than deleting, these makes sense unless the parent cats are going to be deleted as well. Jweiss11 (talk) 03:01, 16 January 2021 (UTC)[reply]
  • Good question. As the parent categories have not been nominated (yet) they should be the merge target for now. Marcocapelle (talk) 06:27, 16 January 2021 (UTC)[reply]
Bagumba, thanks for your research. I only looked into Mexican Americans. I would be comfortable renaming and broadening the category based on your findings.--User:Namiba 13:48, 23 January 2021 (UTC)[reply]
  • Upmerge per Jweiss11.-UCO2009bluejay (talk) 02:27, 18 January 2021 (UTC)[reply]
  • Keep Mexican This covers a notable ethnic minority. It is unclear to me if the Jewish category covers ethnicity or religion. Dimadick (talk) 12:57, 19 January 2021 (UTC)[reply]
  • Delete this is a violation of our ERGS categorization rules.John Pack Lambert (talk) 13:06, 25 January 2021 (UTC)[reply]
  • Delete. None of these articles seems to pass the bar set at WP:OCEGRS, WP:EGRS and WP:BLPCAT that the association between their background and their athletic career would be consistently and commonly considered by reliable sources to be their defining characteristic. If the intersection between their background and another activity (e.g. business or entertainment or politics) is more defining, then they should already be in that category. There is therefore no need to merge this non-information anywhere, especially not to the categories for Jewish- and Mexican-American sportspeople whatever the sport. Place Clichy (talk) 16:25, 25 January 2021 (UTC)[reply]
The above is preserved as an archive of the discussion. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the category's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this section.

Mayors of places in Moldova[edit]

The following is an archived discussion concerning one or more categories. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on an appropriate discussion page (such as the category's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this section.
The result of the discussion was: merge. Good Ol’factory (talk) 01:04, 25 January 2021 (UTC)[reply]
Nominator's rationale: merge per WP:SMALLCAT, just one or two articles in each of these categories and they are not part of a large overall accepted sub-categorization scheme. Marcocapelle (talk) 15:27, 15 January 2021 (UTC)[reply]
The above is preserved as an archive of the discussion. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the category's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this section.

Parliamentary Private Secretaries[edit]

The following is an archived discussion concerning one or more categories. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on an appropriate discussion page (such as the category's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this section.
The result of the discussion was: delete all except Category:Parliamentary Private Secretaries to the Prime Minister, for which there was no consensus to delete. Good Ol’factory (talk) 02:59, 27 January 2021 (UTC)[reply]
Nominator's rationale: follow-up to Wikipedia:Categories for discussion/Log/2021 January 6 § Parliamentary private secretaries, which shows a building consensus that these unpaid pre-ministerial positions are not WP:DEFINING. Note that all members are already MPs, and that topic articles are already at Ministerial positions in the Government of the United Kingdom, no content will therefore be orphaned. @BrendaJones54, Peterkingiron, Marcocapelle, Oculi, Johnbod, RevelationDirect, Justus Nussbaum, Rathfelder, William Allen Simpson, and Good Olfactory: pinging contributors to previous discussion. Place Clichy (talk) 13:10, 15 January 2021 (UTC)[reply]
  • I agree. These positions are just a step on the ladder. Not very significant in themselves. Rathfelder (talk) 14:03, 15 January 2021 (UTC)[reply]
  • Delete per earlier discussion. Marcocapelle (talk) 14:26, 15 January 2021 (UTC)[reply]
  • Keep they may not be defining for those for whom they begin a long ministerial career, but they are for the many who don't progress any higher. The holders are part of the government rather than just back-benchers, and this is surely defining. Johnbod (talk) 15:22, 15 January 2021 (UTC)[reply]
    For MPs who will be PPS but never minister, they will remain in history as MPs, not PPS, or at least that is the short description that any biography will give them. This is the essence of WP:CATDEF. Per WP:CLNT this topic is good for list articles, not categories. Place Clichy (talk) 12:43, 16 January 2021 (UTC)[reply]
  • Delete all except PPS to Prime Minister A PPS - attached either to a Cabinet Minister or more generally attached to a Department- often has a significant role in the development of policy for their minister/department. I also note that Parliamentary Private Secretary to the Prime Minister is notible enough to have it's own article, so should surely have a category for them at the bare minimum. PoliceSheep99 (talk) 19:36, 15 January 2021 (UTC)[reply]
  • Delete Nearly All/Neutral on PPS to the PM These people are already defined by being Members of Parliament and categorizing by these roles is non-defining. If they were major influencers to financial/foreign/transportation or other policies, that can be covered in the article. (I'll defer to PoliceSheep99 about the importance of the Parliamentary Private Secretary to the Prime Minister.) - RevelationDirect (talk) 21:44, 15 January 2021 (UTC)[reply]
  • Delete all — Thanks for checking that nobody is orphaned.
    William Allen Simpson (talk) 02:00, 16 January 2021 (UTC)[reply]
  • Delete all no point to category. 92.20.54.122 (talk) 18:34, 17 January 2021 (UTC)[reply]
The above is preserved as an archive of the discussion. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the category's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this section.

Greek crossroads, neighborhoods, streets, and villages[edit]

The following is an archived discussion concerning one or more categories. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on an appropriate discussion page (such as the category's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this section.
The result of the discussion was: no consensus. Good Ol’factory (talk) 02:40, 27 January 2021 (UTC)[reply]

We have had a problem with re-creation of categories after deletion, by subtle change of the 'o' in "from", in all cases by User:Antondimak (edit | talk | history | links | watch | logs):

Didymoteicho
Fyli
Katerini
Ioannina
Nominator's rationale: WP:SMALLCAT. We don't need any categorization by insignificant crossroads, municipalities, neighborhoods, streets, and villages. These should be grouped into larger areas, usually called "regions" in templates. So-called "regional units", "municipal units", and other intermediate and lower level divisions should be removed.
Moreover, any persons who have no references citing where they notably lived should never be categorized by such places.
  • See also:
William Allen Simpson (talk) 12:16, 15 January 2021 (UTC)[reply]
  • Comment The rationale here is factually false, yet the nominator keeps repeating it. There are currently no categories about "Greek crossroads, neighborhoods, streets, and villages". These are grouped into larger areas, which we could call regions. What is proposed is an extreme option where there will only be categories about super-regions, called "regional units" in Greece. Since the nominator does not seem to have a solid understanding of Greek geography, he says "So-called "regional units" [...] should be removed", despite in fact proposing that regional units be retained. Anyway, there will not be a discussion on that, as it has already been explained, and it's been proven that this is not the issue. There is a single actual issue which hasn't been debunked already, and on which we should focus if we want to have an actual discussion. The reason for the merging/deletion of this categories is that they do not contain enough articles, so they should be deleted under WP:SMALLCAT. The response to that the categories are currently growing, so this is not in fact a case of WP:SMALLCAT. Simple as that. --Antondimak (talk) 13:21, 15 January 2021 (UTC)[reply]
  • When they actually grow significantly we will recreate them. At present there are hundreds of Greek people categories which contain no more than a couple of articles, and often not even that - just a a couple of sub categories which also contain no more than a couple of articles. What you call Greek geography is largely based on administrative boundaries, which were all changed in 2011 and which were not significant in the lives of most of the subjects. Rathfelder (talk) 14:08, 15 January 2021 (UTC)[reply]
  • Things like prefectures not being metropolitan areas and Mikra Vrangiana not being in Agrafa don't depend on administrative changes, but on geography. The administrative changes that happened in 2011 didn't change any of the divisions, they just changed the names (demoi->demotikes enotetes) and administrative responsibilities. It was and is a good way to categorise based on geography. Saying they will be recreated, apart from not being typical as per WP:SMALLCAT, is very hopeful. Who is going to put the time to take on this massive job? What I did up to now was that I put an insane amount of work for something very few people see, partly to kill time, and because for some weird reason I enjoyed contributing, and using my knowledge to help in some way. As I have explained, what is proposed increases the algorithm's (that of updating the structure) complexity. Who will you find to do it again? Who will be insane enough to put 10 times the amount of time I did into this? Judging from sheer frequency of mistakes I have seen people making throughout this whole process, I understand that for a non-Greek person to do it properly it will also take even longer. I saw what happened last time, when the categories merged and remained broken, and nobody noticed it or cared to fix them. Not to mention that what is proposed now, upmerging to regions, essentially means nuking the whole project, and isn't done for any country in Wikipedia as far as I'm aware. It's simply vindictive. It would also mean either destroying the already viable categories too, or keeping a structure so uneven it would basically be useless. I mean it would already be useless regardless, Greek regions are so general they don't mean much. Many Greeks don't even know what the regions are. Everyone knows the general area they come from, and that's what matters to them. I'm partly from Kastelli Pediadas (municipal unit). The place doesn't matter exactly, I won't say I'm from the city of Kastelli, or from Mathia, or from Polythea, as my family are scattered across different towns and villages, and what pretty much everyone in Greece does. That's another reason I didn't categorise all the way down to communities, in which case the categories would actually be "Greek crossroads, neighborhoods, streets, and villages". I would also however never say I'm from Minoa Pediadas (municipality), and nobody would say they're from Archanes-Asterousia. These wider categories don't mean much to people, that's why the first time I said I wasn't completely opposed to merging, but we would have to downmerge. Moreover, right now articles in higher level categories exist, and it actually means something! It's usually people from Byzantine-Ottoman times, for whom we don't know exactly where they're from, only a "range". --Antondimak (talk) 16:30, 15 January 2021 (UTC)[reply]
  • Marcocapelle, the redlinks were speedily deleted G4. I'll nominate any remaining in the future. This nomination focuses on those that were recreated/repopulated after the prior deletion/merge discussions.
    William Allen Simpson (talk) 17:58, 15 January 2021 (UTC)[reply]
  • Also, as we'll discuss in the future, "regional unit" is an inexact nomenclature. Literally, they are "peripheries", otherwise known in English as "suburbs". We don't categorize people from suburbs of Chicago, or group suburbs of Chicago, no matter how many. There's no good reason to start dividing East/West/etc. Athens. Moreover, US suburbs are cities and townships with elected governments. Regional units of Greece have no elected government. They are at level 1.5 in the Kallikratis Plan. The governments are at the regional and municipality levels, so that's what we should use too. We can worry IFF the regional article count starts approaching 200.
    William Allen Simpson (talk) 18:09, 15 January 2021 (UTC)[reply]
  • Regional units are not the "peripheries". Regions are the "peripheries". Also "peripheries" definitely doesn't mean suburb. We went from "prefectures are metropolitan areas" to "regions are suburbs". I wonder what your reaction will be when you find out the entirety of Greece is made out of thirteen "suburbs". Who knew Greece is a city? Epirus is a "suburb". Pyrrhus invaded Rome with the full might of his suburb. --Antondimak (talk) 19:29, 15 January 2021 (UTC)[reply]
  • I have put a note in WikiProject Greece so that there can be more Greeks involved apart from myself. If there isn't any interest, I will just keep watching these discussions because they are hilarious. And you win, nobody uses the categories anyway, I can let some of them get destroyed. --Antondimak (talk) 19:36, 15 January 2021 (UTC)[reply]
  • Antondimak is right. The whole of Greece is divided in regional units as a second level administrative division, both in rural and urban areas, so it has nothing to do with suburbs. Marcocapelle (talk) 20:24, 15 January 2021 (UTC)[reply]
  • You give me hope this may not turn into a complete mess after my withdrawal (the category structure that is, the discussion is already a mess). As I have said I will always be available to help if asked. --Antondimak (talk) 13:03, 16 January 2021 (UTC)[reply]
  • Marcocapelle, "Thirteen administrative regions form the second-level unit of government." Regional units are not a "second level administrative division". Neither are they equivalent to "states", as Antondimak has previously stated. In the metropolitan areas they are suburbs, in the rural areas they no longer have any meaning. Regional units are shoehorned under administrative regions, and do not exist on their own. They have no government, no legislature, no judiciary. See also Municipalities and communities of Greece.
    William Allen Simpson (talk) 02:15, 16 January 2021 (UTC)[reply]
  • There are actually 74 regional units as the second level division. Whether or not these units have a lot of executional power is wholly irrelevant for this discussion because it is not the regional unit categories that are nominated. If you want to get rid of them you should start a fresh nomination. For now, these regional unit categories exist, thus they are the appropriate merge target. I can understand Antondimak using the word "hilarious" because you are making a mess of your own nomination, while that is completely unnecessary. Marcocapelle (talk) 06:44, 16 January 2021 (UTC)[reply]
  • Then I don't understand your use of "second level". I've pointed to the articles that there are 3 levels, and "regional unit" isn't one of them. Perhaps there's confusion about the difference between "administrative regions" and "regional units"? Both Rathfelder and I have tried to nominate vertical slices, instead of horizontal. As expressed previously, I'd expected that as we remove the lower levels, recategorizing relevant cities appropriately into their regions, the regional units would become empty. If you've prefer horizonal, we could discuss eliminating all the regional units at once. But that's a lot of work, and might lead to TrainWreck.
    William Allen Simpson (talk) 13:36, 16 January 2021 (UTC)[reply]
  • Let's first start with facts. Greece is divided in 13 administrative regions as the first level division, in 74 regional units as the second level division, in 325 subregional entities confusingly named municipalities as the third level division. Below that we have former (smaller) municipalities and we have populated places (towns and villages).
Now starting from the bottom in terms of what is desirable for Wikipedia categories. Wherever reasonably possible (i.e. at least 5 articles), I would suggest keeping the "people from populated places" categories, simply because that is the most tangible classification in real life. That is why I said keep Category:People from Didymoteicho and Category:People from Katerini. But unfortunately with many small towns and villages that leads to excessive smallcats, and I am quite doubtful about Antondimak's claim that small town and villages categories can easily be populated by new articles to be written. So in my view they need to be upmerged to the next level, i.e. to municipality level. But even most municipalities will remain too small, so they need to be upmerged to the next level too, to regional units. Fyli is a municipality, so that is why the nominated Category:People from Fyli needs to be upmerged to Category:People from West Attica.
Ultimately I expect we can get rid of the entire municipality level (while keeping cities and bigger towns), but I am not so sure that the regional unit should be entirely removed. For now, imho, the focus should be on upmerging villages, small towns and municipalities to regional units while leaving the issue of the regional units as such for later. If you User:William Allen Simpson, on the other hand, would insist on discussing villages, small towns, municipalities and regional units together, you should nominate (in the case of Fyli) Category:People from West Attica too, but that could easily lead to a trainwreck.
@Antondimak: while the two of us are/were fundamentally in disagreement, I would still appreciate if you keep reading this and add comments if you think it's important. Marcocapelle (talk) 16:32, 16 January 2021 (UTC)[reply]
Your first paragraph is factually correct. I will add, just so it's clear to everyone, the tree is currently one level shy of the bottom. As such, there are no categories for towns/villages/cities (the two Greek metropolitan areas of Athens and Thessaloniki, which have an entirely different structure, excluded). Even in the major ones (say, Patras, Heraklion) there is a single category including them and all nearby villages/towns. This is the structure that's used for most countries. I made before a comparison between Achaea (Greek regional unit/prefecture) and Abruzzo (Italian region). Achaea is further broken up into municipalities, and then municipal units, like Abruzzo is broken up into provinces, and then municipalities (Greek municipalities being roughly equivalent to Italian provinces, and Greek municipal units roughly equivalent to Italian municipalities). Italian divisions, until the municipality-municipal unit equivalency, which is I believe quite accurate, are a bit "higher level". That's because Greece has one more administrative level, making the transition more granular overall.
I understand you doubt that the smaller ones will be populated besides my assurances, I don't know if there's much more I could say to convince you. There is however one thing we could do if this is to be done in an organised manner, so that it will be a bit easier to recreate the categories at the point that enough articles are already written. That would be adding a comment (<--!-->) in the articles whose categories are deleted. Say a "municipal unit" category gets deleted, and still there aren't 5 articles in the "municipality" category either. As a result the articles end up in the "regional unit" category (I don't believe there aren't any regional unit category with less than 5 articles). We leave a comment with the old path in the articles. Therefore it's easier to check whether a category becomes viable, as we won't have to search all articles each time, and check up the relevant geographical divisions each time. For non-English speakers it may not even be possible to check the divisions, as I haven't found any extensive non-Greek source on the matter (in case any Greek speaker happens to read this, this is a good source), and we could end up with a lot of "Efi Thodi/Vrangiana" situations.
Since you asked me to, I will keep making comments like that (usually shorter ones), when I have the time, refraining from "voting" (seeing how that turned out). --Antondimak (talk) 17:16, 16 January 2021 (UTC)[reply]
  • In other words, there is no exact match between administrative divisions and populated places. Populated places may (almost) coincide with a municipality or with a municipal unit, or (in case of villages) not even with a municipal unit. But in practice it does not really matter. With bigger towns and cities with enough people to populate a category, we can simply keep the existing municipality or municipal unit category, like we can e.g. keep Category:People from Didymoteicho and Category:People from Katerini, which by the way are both a subcat of Category:People by city or town in Greece already. Marcocapelle (talk) 17:43, 16 January 2021 (UTC)[reply]
  • Yes, this nomination was the result of JJMC89 finding even more omicron substitutions. The perversion of our process must not stand.
    William Allen Simpson (talk) 13:25, 17 January 2021 (UTC)[reply]
  • Just for the record, apart from my explanation, this was an one time event, not what the accuser is making it sound like. But it is pointless now, since even if limitations were to be put (which I don't think they will looking at the facts), I have put more extreme limitations on myself in order to avoid the drama. --Antondimak (talk) 13:56, 17 January 2021 (UTC)[reply]
  • Comment some of those categories are about municipal units that became "disconnected" from their equivalent municipality due to the previous disorganised merge. If they were to be upmerged, they would need to be upmerged to the equivalent municipalities, which are all "viable" in this case. --Antondimak (talk) 08:42, 18 January 2021 (UTC)[reply]
  • Suggestion A subsequent smaller nomination specifying the target categories for the merger without any speedy deleted cats would be more likely to bring us to a consensus. Maybe someone already wall of text above. - RevelationDirect (talk) 01:41, 24 January 2021 (UTC)[reply]
  • Keep. I frankly do not quite get exactly what is proposed here with this mixture of red and blue links mixed in the middle of a flame discussion. I do however consider that categories for people from places in Greece such as Didymoteicho or Katerini should certainly be kept seen the rich history and notability of these places. However Greece did introduce a local government reform in 2010 (the Kallikratis Plan) where many places lost their status of independent municipalities in favour of fewer enlarged municipalities; this came in turn after a previous plan in 1997 had already greatly reduced the number of municipalities: from 5,775 administrative entities before 1997 and 1,033 between 1997 and 2010, this number has been reduced to 325 greatly enlarged municipalities. Regarding People from categories, my first gut would be that it makes more sense to categorize people by actual place, town or village (when notable) makes more sense than categorizing them by the post-2010 municipality. The latter is always a bit artificial, and anachronistic for people born before 2010. On a higher level however for people from towns and villages too small to have their own category, the prefectures/regional units are the level which makes the most sense. This administrative level exists since independence, and corresponds most often to geographic and cultural designations used at any time in Greece history. People from Arcadia, Chalkidiki, Boetia or the Cyclades makes sense whatever the century, which cannot be equivalent to post-2010 municipalities. Anyway, the nominator should bring together a clear proposal of which categories they want to merge, delete or keep with another rationale that people "should never be categorized by such places". Place Clichy (talk) 16:48, 25 January 2021 (UTC)[reply]
The above is preserved as an archive of the discussion. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the category's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this section.

Bishops[edit]

The following is an archived discussion concerning one or more categories. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on an appropriate discussion page (such as the category's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this section.
The result of the discussion was: rename. Good Ol’factory (talk) 00:58, 25 January 2021 (UTC)[reply]
Propose renaming Category:Anglican Archbishops of Brisbane to Category:Anglican archbishops of Brisbane
Propose renaming Category:Anglican Archbishops of Central Africa to Category:Anglican archbishops of Central Africa
Propose renaming Category:Anglican Archbishops of Kenya to Category:Anglican archbishops of Kenya
Propose renaming Category:Anglican Bishops of Ballarat to Category:Anglican bishops of Ballarat
Propose renaming Category:Anglican Bishops of Dorchester to Category:Anglican bishops of Dorchester
Propose renaming Category:Anglican Bishops of Gibraltar to Category:Anglican bishops of Gibraltar
Propose renaming Category:Anglican Bishops of Lancaster to Category:Anglican bishops of Lancaster
Propose renaming Category:Anglican Bishops of Liverpool to Category:Anglican bishops of Liverpool
Propose renaming Category:Anglican Bishops of Plymouth to Category:Anglican bishops of Plymouth
Propose renaming Category:Anglican Bishops of Richmond to Category:Anglican bishops of Richmond
Propose renaming Category:Roman Catholic Archbishops of Detroit to Category:Roman Catholic archbishops of Detroit
Propose renaming Category:Roman Catholic Archbishops of Edmonton to Category:Roman Catholic archbishops of Edmonton
Propose renaming Category:Roman Catholic Archbishops of Melbourne to Category:Roman Catholic archbishops of Melbourne
Propose renaming Category:Roman Catholic Archbishops of New York to Category:Roman Catholic archbishops of New York
Propose renaming Category:Roman Catholic Archbishops of San Francisco to Category:Roman Catholic archbishops of San Francisco
Propose renaming Category:Roman Catholic Archbishops of São Salvador da Bahia to Category:Roman Catholic archbishops of São Salvador da Bahia
Propose renaming Category:Roman Catholic Bishops of Quebec to Category:Roman Catholic bishops of Quebec
Propose renaming Category:Roman Catholic Bishops of Toronto to Category:Roman Catholic bishops of Toronto
Additional categories not in original nomination
Propose renaming Category:Roman Catholic Bishops of Adelaide to Category:Roman Catholic bishops of Adelaide
Propose renaming Category:Roman Catholic Archbishops of Brisbane to Category:Roman Catholic archbishops of Brisbane
Propose renaming Category:Roman Catholic Archbishops of Canberra-Goulburn to Category:Roman Catholic archbishops of Canberra and Goulburn (per Roman Catholic Archdiocese of Canberra and Goulburn)
Propose renaming Category:Roman Catholic Archbishops of Hobart to Category:Roman Catholic archbishops of Hobart
Propose renaming Category:Roman Catholic Archbishops of Perth to Category:Roman Catholic archbishops of Perth
Propose renaming Category:Roman Catholic Archbishops of Sydney to Category:Roman Catholic archbishops of Sydney
Propose renaming Category:Roman Catholic Archbishops of Boston to Category:Roman Catholic archbishops of Boston
Propose renaming Category:Roman Catholic Archbishops for the United States Military Services to Category:Roman Catholic archbishops for the United States Military Services
Propose renaming Category:Roman Catholic Archbishops of Athens to Category:Roman Catholic archbishops of Athens
Propose renaming Category:Roman Catholic Archbishops of Rhodes to Category:Roman Catholic archbishops of Rhodes
Propose renaming Category:Roman Catholic Bishops of New Westminster to Category:Roman Catholic bishops of New Westminster
Propose renaming Category:Episcopal Bishops of Southern Ohio to Category:Episcopal bishops of Southern Ohio
Propose renaming Category:Roman Catholic Bishops of Leeds to Category:Roman Catholic bishops of Leeds
Propose renaming Category:Assistant Bishops of Leicester to Category:Assistant bishops of Leicester
Propose renaming Category:Assistant Bishops of Leicester (1987–2017) to Category:Assistant bishops of Leicester (1987–2017)
Propose renaming Category:Assistant Bishops of Newcastle to Category:Assistant bishops of Newcastle
Propose renaming Category:Assistant Bishops of Newcastle (1980–2016) to Category:Assistant bishops of Newcastle (1980–2016)
Propose renaming Category:Assistant Bishops of Oxford to Category:Assistant bishops of Oxford
Propose renaming Category:Assistant Bishops of St Albans to Category:Assistant bishops of St Albans
Propose renaming Category:Assistant Bishops of York to Category:Assistant bishops of York
Propose renaming Category:Suffragan Bishops in abeyance to Category:Suffragan bishops in abeyance
Propose renaming Category:Anglican Bishops of Shrewsbury to Category:Anglican bishops of Shrewsbury
Propose renaming Category:Roman Catholic Bishops of Ypres to Category:Roman Catholic bishops of Ypres
Propose renaming Category:Latin Archbishops of Corinth to Category:Latin archbishops of Corinth
Propose renaming Category:Latin Archbishops of Patras to Category:Latin archbishops of Patras
Propose renaming Category:Latin Archbishops of Thebes to Category:Latin archbishops of Thebes
Propose renaming Category:Eritrean Catholic Archbishops of Asmara to Category:Eritrean Catholic archbishops of Asmara
Propose renaming Category:Ethiopian Catholic Bishops of Asmara to Category:Ethiopian Catholic bishops of Asmara
Propose renaming Category:Anglican Bishops of Garissa to Category:Anglican bishops of Garissa
Propose renaming Category:Anglican Bishops of Mombasa to Category:Anglican bishops of Mombasa
Propose renaming Category:Anglican Bishops of Nairobi to Category:Anglican bishops of Nairobi
Propose renaming Category:Anglican Bishops of Assam to Category:Anglican bishops of Assam
Propose renaming Category:Anglican Bishops of Bombay to Category:Anglican bishops of Bombay
Propose renaming Category:Anglican Bishops of Calcutta to Category:Anglican bishops of Calcutta
Propose renaming Category:Anglican Bishops of Chota Nagpur to Category:Anglican bishops of Chota Nagpur
Propose renaming Category:Anglican Bishops of Lucknow to Category:Anglican bishops of Lucknow
Propose renaming Category:Anglican Bishops of Nagpur to Category:Anglican bishops of Nagpur
Propose renaming Category:Anglican Bishops of Nasik to Category:Anglican bishops of Nasik
Propose renaming Category:Anglican Bishops of Dornakal to Category:Anglican bishops of Dornakal
Propose renaming Category:Anglican Bishops of Kanyakumari to Category:Anglican bishops of Kanyakumari
Propose renaming Category:Anglican Bishops of Karimnagar to Category:Anglican bishops of Karimnagar
Propose renaming Category:Anglican Bishops of Central Karnataka to Category:Anglican bishops of Karnataka Central (per https://csikarnatakacentraldiocese.org/ )
Propose merging Category:Bishops of Karnataka Central to Category:Anglican bishops of Karnataka Central
Propose renaming Category:Anglican Bishops of Karnataka Southern to Category:Anglican bishops of Karnataka Southern
Propose renaming Category:Anglican Bishops of Krishna-Godavari to Category:Anglican bishops of Krishna-Godavari
Propose renaming Category:Anglican Bishops of Madhya Kerala to Category:Anglican bishops of Madhya Kerala
Propose renaming Category:Anglican Bishops of Madras to Category:Anglican bishops of Madras
Propose renaming Category:Anglican Bishops of Madurai Ramnad to Category:Anglican bishops of Madurai Ramnad
Propose renaming Category:Anglican Bishops of Medak to Category:Anglican bishops of Medak
Propose renaming Category:Anglican Bishops of Mysore to Category:Anglican bishops of Mysore
Propose renaming Category:Anglican Bishops of Nandyal to Category:Anglican bishops of Nandyal
Propose renaming Category:Anglican Bishops of Rayalaseema to Category:Anglican bishops of Rayalaseema
Propose renaming Category:Anglican Bishops of South Kerala to Category:Anglican bishops of South Kerala
Propose renaming Category:Anglican Bishops of Tinnevelly to Category:Anglican bishops of Tinnevelly
Propose renaming Category:Anglican Bishops of Travancore and Cochin to Category:Anglican bishops of Travancore and Cochin
Propose renaming Category:Anglican Bishops of Trichy-Tanjore to Category:Anglican bishops of Trichy-Tanjore
Nominator's rationale: Rename. These were part of a longer list nominated in 2011, which resulted in "do not rename" but recommending further discussions. After that, Catholic bishoprics in Ireland were speedily renamed, and Church of Ireland archbishops in 2017 after a careful discussion. A few more of the original list in Europe & N America have been speedily renamed via WP:CFDS, and one in NZ was moved without discussion. These remain to be moved, and are probably no longer controversial, but because of the history a full discussion is better than using the speedy page. – Fayenatic London 10:52, 15 January 2021 (UTC)[reply]
The above is preserved as an archive of the discussion. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the category's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this section.

Category:Rolan's Curse series[edit]

The following is an archived discussion concerning one or more categories. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on an appropriate discussion page (such as the category's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this section.
The result of the discussion was: delete. Good Ol’factory (talk) 00:57, 25 January 2021 (UTC)[reply]
Nominator's rationale: 2 games is not enough to make a "series", delete per WP:SMALLCAT. ZXCVBNM (TALK) 08:29, 15 January 2021 (UTC)[reply]
  • Delete per nom. Marcocapelle (talk) 14:31, 15 January 2021 (UTC)[reply]
  • Delete - too small to warrant a category, and considering the last game came out 30 years ago it does not seem likely that series will expand anytime soon.--AlexandraIDV 08:30, 16 January 2021 (UTC)[reply]
The above is preserved as an archive of the discussion. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the category's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this section.

Team broadcaster categories[edit]

The following is an archived discussion concerning one or more categories. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on an appropriate discussion page (such as the category's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this section.
The result of the discussion was: no consensus to delete, but among those in favour of keeping there is a consensus to rename to "FOO announcers". Good Ol’factory (talk) 03:14, 27 January 2021 (UTC) Postscript: I started a follow-up nomination here after completing the renaming. Good Ol’factory (talk) 03:09, 28 January 2021 (UTC)[reply]

Nominator's rationale: non-defining performance categories. Kept being added and deleted from radio and TV station articles by User:210.185.171.101. Need help with tagging. Mvcg66b3r (talk) 00:27, 15 January 2021 (UTC)[reply]

  • information Note: Now taged. Six nominated categories do not exist. — JJMC89 (T·C) 03:53, 15 January 2021 (UTC)[reply]
  • Delete All Most teams have a single person who is "the" voice of that team, like Vin Scully with the Dodgers, but such articles are a small minority within these categories. Overwhelmingly, these contain articles about people in the broadcast industry who had multiple jobs during their career and this was one of them. We don't categorize by each station on air talent worked for and we shouldn't do so here, per WP:PERFCAT. - RevelationDirect (talk) 12:00, 15 January 2021 (UTC)[reply]
  • Delete, the categories contain an odd mix of biographies and media channels, being broadcaster for a team is defining for neither of them. Marcocapelle (talk) 14:35, 15 January 2021 (UTC)[reply]
  • Keep WP:NONDEF doesn't apply. Being a broadcaster for a team is a defining trait, as broadcasting is their job (it is what makes them notable). As an example, Category:Green Bay Packers broadcasters does the same thing that Category:Green Bay Packers players does. It categorizes people in a specific role that is associated with the Packers. I don't dispute that the categories should be cleaned up (like should media channels be included in the category), but I don't see any reason to delete. « Gonzo fan2007 (talk) @ 15:48, 15 January 2021 (UTC)[reply]
  • Keep per what Gonzo_fan2007 said pretty much. This is just the equivalent of a players category. It defines them it as being broadcasters to a specific team. And yes some cleanup could probably be done. But the categories themselves are not the issue. -DJSasso (talk) 16:02, 15 January 2021 (UTC)[reply]
  • I am also ok with rename per below. -DJSasso (talk) 13:31, 18 January 2021 (UTC)[reply]
  • Delete per WP:PERFCAT. I think User:RevelationDirect summarized well the opinion I share on this too. But to add, it's a slippery slope if these exist. There might be some, rarer instances of broadcasting being how the person is known and thus is much more apples-to-apples with the athlete categories mentioned above. But in reality, I argue, the vast majority of broadcasters are better known in other capacities, with broadcasting being a secondary notability. SportsGuy789 (talk) 22:06, 15 January 2021 (UTC)[reply]
  • Delete per WP:PERFCAT. Carlossuarez46 (talk) 23:08, 15 January 2021 (UTC)[reply]
  • Keep, as a method of categorizing the people. I don't think these are fundamentally different from team player and team coach categories. If anything, the average broadcasting personality has been with a team much longer than the average player. (A player only needs to appear in one game to qualify for the team player category!) I don't have a strong opinion about the TV/radio articles. Zagalejo^^^ 01:12, 16 January 2021 (UTC)[reply]
  • Rename with "announcers" instead of "broadcasters". The people are notable for their associations with the teams, just as players are. They are not actors with countless performance roles. A problem stated by the nomination are media stations commingled with these categories. A parent category is Category:American sports announcers; it would be clearer if the categories were renamed with "announcer" to make it specific that it does not include stations that are broadcasters, only people.—Bagumba (talk) 11:46, 17 January 2021 (UTC)[reply]
  • Rename per Bagumba. The broadcast stations themselves may be something I would have to question. But the announcers should be kept as a defining category. We have lists that might need to be renamed as well but that is a different discussion.-UCO2009bluejay (talk) 23:59, 17 January 2021 (UTC)[reply]
  • If renamed, the categories should be listed at WP:CFDWM for purging of the stations. Marcocapelle (talk) 21:41, 20 January 2021 (UTC)[reply]
  • Rename per Bagumba Gjs238 (talk) 01:06, 22 January 2021 (UTC)[reply]
  • Comment it seems if the rename goes forward, we should do better on category naming. A naming convention like Category:Green Bay Packers broadcast stations and Category:Green Bay Packers announcers would be what I would prefer, since "broadcasters" is vague in meaning. Also note that "announcers" follows other parent categories, like Category:National Football League announcers by team. « Gonzo fan2007 (talk) @ 19:24, 22 January 2021 (UTC)[reply]
The above is preserved as an archive of the discussion. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the category's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this section.

Category:ASA Architectural Conservation Award recipients[edit]

The following is an archived discussion concerning one or more categories. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on an appropriate discussion page (such as the category's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this section.
The result of the discussion was: delete. Good Ol’factory (talk) 03:06, 27 January 2021 (UTC)[reply]
Nominator's rationale: Per WP:NONDEFINING (WP:OCAWARD)
The Association of Siamese Architects gives out a ASA Architectural Conservation Award each year for conservation or renovations of historic buildings in Thailand. Buildings that win this award are already very prominent so most the articles don't mention the award at all like Assumption Cathedral, Bangkok, Phaya Thai Palace, Bangkok railway station, or any others you want to click on. The contents are already listified here in the main article for any reader interested in the topic. - RevelationDirect (talk) 00:07, 15 January 2021 (UTC)[reply]
  • Comment: Hmm. The award serves as a de facto heritage register, so its presentation isn't just a single event of recognition, but often leads to continued interest in the recipient building's status. I think the perception that all the buildings are already prominent may be due to lack of coverage. For some notable buildings (many of which don't yet have articles), the award is a defining characteristic that helped put them in public spotlight. That said, the same might not be the case for the majority of potential members. --Paul_012 (talk) 13:54, 15 January 2021 (UTC)[reply]
Some awards end up in a Catch-22 where, when the award is defining enough for a category, the winners aren't notable enough for an article and, when the winners are notable enough for an article, the award is no longer defining. - RevelationDirect (talk) 21:34, 15 January 2021 (UTC)[reply]
  • Delete per WP:OCAWARD, the award is not a consistently defining characteristic of the articles in this category. Marcocapelle (talk) 14:39, 15 January 2021 (UTC)[reply]
The above is preserved as an archive of the discussion. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the category's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this section.

Category:Recipients of the 18 May 1811 Medal[edit]

The following is an archived discussion concerning one or more categories. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on an appropriate discussion page (such as the category's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this section.
The result of the discussion was: delete. Good Ol’factory (talk) 00:55, 25 January 2021 (UTC)[reply]
Nominator's rationale: Per WP:NONDEFINING (WP:OCAWARD)
The 18 May 1811 Medal is a military award from Uruguay, although it seems to be given mostly to high ranking foreign soldiers. It must not be a very defining award because, of the 3 articles in this category, not a single one even mentions it. There wasn't a list so I created one right here in the main article for any reader interested in the topic. - RevelationDirect (talk) 00:07, 15 January 2021 (UTC)[reply]
The above is preserved as an archive of the discussion. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the category's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this section.

Category:Killed journalists in Slovakia[edit]

The following is an archived discussion concerning one or more categories. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on an appropriate discussion page (such as the category's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this section.
The result of the discussion was: delete (categories were empty at the time of this close). Good Ol’factory (talk) 00:54, 25 January 2021 (UTC)[reply]
Nominator's rationale: Fairly clearly assassinations because they were journalists. Rathfelder (talk) 00:02, 15 January 2021 (UTC)[reply]
  • Aha, I see that category already existed. Thanks for moving the articles into the correct category!
    William Allen Simpson (talk) 11:05, 18 January 2021 (UTC)[reply]
The above is preserved as an archive of the discussion. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the category's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this section.
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