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The following discussion is an archived debate of the proposed deletion of the article below. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this page.

The result was delete. Stifle (talk) 13:08, 16 March 2023 (UTC)[reply]

Vilikesa Vosagaga[edit]

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Vilikesa Vosagaga (edit | talk | history | protect | delete | links | watch | logs | views) – (View log | edits since nomination)
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WP:NFOOTY is no longer a valid SNG, so GNG must be met. It needs several refs from independent, reliable, secondary sources to pass WP:GNG. Was moved to draft in hopes of improvement, but immediately returned to mainspace. Onel5969 TT me 15:00, 1 March 2023 (UTC)[reply]

  • Note: This discussion has been included in the deletion sorting lists for the following topics: Sportspeople, Football, and Oceania. - "Ghost of Dan Gurney" (work / talk) 16:30, 1 March 2023 (UTC)[reply]
  • Keep - I've added refs. These were easy to find, and I'm surprised the nominaotr didn't add them rather than leaping immediately to deletion.--IdiotSavant (talk) 01:14, 2 March 2023 (UTC)[reply]
  • Note: This discussion has been included in WikiProject Football's list of association football-related deletions. GiantSnowman 19:39, 2 March 2023 (UTC)[reply]
  • Keep per sources on article (Fiji Times and FBC) which show notability. GiantSnowman 19:42, 2 March 2023 (UTC)[reply]
    @GiantSnowman, there are two sentences that contain independent coverage directly on Vosagaga in the Fiji Times article:

    Vosagaga, who hails from Saivou Village in Seaqaqa, plays for his district’s senior and youth teams.
    The Seaqaqa Central College Year 11 student featured for his district at the 2022 Courts Inter District Championship and his performance caught the eyes of national selectors.

    How does that pass YOUNGATH? JoelleJay (talk) 01:43, 7 March 2023 (UTC)[reply]
    I think there's sufficient coverage. GiantSnowman 18:39, 7 March 2023 (UTC)[reply]
    @GiantSnowman, how are two sentences enough to meet SPORTBASIC, let alone the higher sourcing requirements of YOUNGATH? The FBC article isn't much better, with under 5 independent sentences on him. He fails NSPORT and all former iterations of NFOOTY (he never played for the national team or in the Fiji first league; I couldn't verify he even played for second-tier team Seaqaqa FC (he did play for Seaqaqa College), in fact I can't even find a website for Seaqaqa FC to check their roster...), so why is a wikipedia article on this child warranted? JoelleJay (talk) 19:38, 7 March 2023 (UTC)[reply]
    I've explained my views already. You badgering me will not get me to change. GiantSnowman 19:39, 7 March 2023 (UTC)[reply]
  • Keep - Per above. Clearly young significant figure in Fijian football with ongoing career. Thanks, Das osmnezz (talk) 21:30, 2 March 2023 (UTC)[reply]
  • Keep, coverage looks significant enough to pass GNG.--Ortizesp (talk) 05:24, 4 March 2023 (UTC)[reply]
  • Delete. ?? This is a 15-year-old. We do not have articles on 15-year-old footballers unless they go waaaay beyond the standard regional press covering high school sports. Do you know how many thousands more (predominantly western) kids would have wikipedia articles if we applied these same ultra-low standards of sourcing to everyone? [1] is a local interview-style article on children (fails YOUNGATH) that contains around two sentences of independent coverage, with the rest being direct quotes or "Vosagaga said", Red XN. [2] is similarly bereft of independent content, most of it again being "[he] said" crypto-quotes, Red XN. [3] is a trivial mention in the same paper as #1, Red XN. [4] is a trivial mention in a routine match recap, Red XN. [5] is a trivial mention inside primary/non-indy content, Red XN. [6] is another trivial mention by the same outlet as #5. This is exceptionally far from passing GNG, let alone YOUNGATH. JoelleJay (talk) 01:39, 7 March 2023 (UTC)[reply]
  • Comment - It is also important to mention that the article has been expanded. Thanks, Das osmnezz (talk) 01:14, 8 March 2023 (UTC)[reply]
    It's also important to mention that young athletes must have prolonged coverage. JoelleJay (talk) 05:02, 8 March 2023 (UTC)[reply]
  • Keep per the sources on the article. I agree with GiantSnowman that there is enough here to pass GNG. Carson Wentz (talk) 02:51, 8 March 2023 (UTC)[reply]
    Can you clarify how this meets YOUNGATH, in particular the requirement that coverage is substantial and prolonged? The only two sources that aren't trivial occurred within a week of each other, clearly failing the "prolonged" clause. JoelleJay (talk) 05:00, 8 March 2023 (UTC)[reply]
I think it's tough to assess on that criterion right now given that the subject is still only 15. We'd have to revisit in a few years. Spiderone(Talk to Spider) 16:29, 8 March 2023 (UTC)[reply]
  • Weak keep - two sources that GS points out are just about enough for GNG. GNG is not a ridiculously high bar. We simply need two independent WP:RS providing coverage that we can at least build something from. Spiderone(Talk to Spider) 17:22, 8 March 2023 (UTC)[reply]

Relisted to generate a more thorough discussion and clearer consensus.
Relisting comment: I had closed this discussion as Keep but it has been challenged so I'm relisting this discussion.

For the record my closure read: "The result was keep. There is a consensus among participating editors that GNG is met here. There is also a vocal opposition to that judgment but the consensus is to Keep this article even if some of the Keeps are Weak Keeps, either explicitly or in terms of the Keep opinions put forth."
Please add new comments below this notice. Thanks, Liz Read! Talk! 19:30, 8 March 2023 (UTC)[reply]

  • Keep. The references added to list above are enough to pass WP:GNG. There is no requirement that WP:YOUNGATH also be met, either meeting GNG or an SNG is required for notability. Frank Anchor 19:35, 8 March 2023 (UTC)[reply]
    YOUNGATH explains what constitutes GNG coverage of young athletes, it's not a separate guideline criterion. JoelleJay (talk) 19:39, 8 March 2023 (UTC)[reply]
  • No, GNG explains what constitutes GNG coverage of all subjects, which includes young athletes. And I believe GNG to be met in this case. Frank Anchor 19:53, 8 March 2023 (UTC)[reply]
    Different topic areas have different ways of assessing what is SIGCOV and compliance with other P&Gs. But regardless, as noted below, SUSTAINED is straight from N and clearly applies here. JoelleJay (talk) 22:34, 8 March 2023 (UTC)[reply]
GNG is enough to establish notability. We obviously disagree on if this met GNG, so I would appreciate it if you would stop bludgoening anyone who offers a different opinion, whether here or on their talk page in the case of a user who presented an opinion other that what you expected from them (and I fully understand the message was posted on Spider’s talk page and not here because the AFD was closed and later reopened. However I want to sure others are aware of this conversation). Frank Anchor 04:05, 9 March 2023 (UTC)[reply]
  • Changed to draftify based on comments by Hey man I’m Josh and Beaniefan11. Upon a further review of sources, it is probably WP:TOOSOON for an article on this subject. Frank Anchor 20:58, 9 March 2023 (UTC)[reply]
  • Delete Fails WP:GNG due to lack of WP:SIGCOV. The Fiji Times and FBC sources each have two non-primary sentences on him, the rest is qoutes from him. It is massively disapointing to see experienced editors claiming that is enough for a 15-year old kid to pass GNG. Alvaldi (talk) 20:56, 8 March 2023 (UTC)[reply]
    And lets not forget, those two sources are from 1 and 7 January 2023 which would utterly fail WP:SUSTAINED. Alvaldi (talk) 21:00, 8 March 2023 (UTC)[reply]
  • Delete - Article fails WP:GNG, particularly after applying WP:YOUNGATH. The Fiji Times source is not in-depth and most of it is Q&A. I cannot open the FBC News source, so if someone believes there is something highly useful there I'd appreciate if they could post an excerpt here. That said one decent source on a youth athlete isn't going to satisfy the GNG under any circumstance. Jogurney (talk) 15:53, 9 March 2023 (UTC)[reply]
    @Jogurney, here's the entirety of the FBC source:

    The likes of Fiji Football captain Roy Krishna and striker Sairusi Nalaubu have been a source of inspiration to young and upcoming footballers.
    15-year-old Vilikesa Vosagaga who is part of the Baby Bula Boys squad took up the sport after watching Nalaubu play for Suva, Lautoka, and the national team.
    The Saivou, Seaqaqa in Macuata youngster says he was inspired by how the Lautoka striker performed on the field.
    A striker himself, Vosagaga says he wants to follow in the footsteps of his fellow Vanua Levu mate.
    “I like his playing style, his speed, he looks like he has fun all the time while on the field and I want to be like that. He is also a humble person.”
    The Seaqaqa Central College student started playing at the age of nine and with the help of his coach Mohamed Imran he booked a place in their district team and played during the Inter-District Championship last year.
    Vosagaga who has maternal links to Sasa in Macuata is the first from his family to make it to a national squad and is also the youngest player in the team.
    The Sunil Kumar-coached side will face Samoa in its first OFC Under-17 Championship next Thursday.
    The match will be held at the HFC Bank Stadium at 7pm.

    JoelleJay (talk) 18:41, 9 March 2023 (UTC)[reply]
    Thank you JoelleJay. I agree that this source is woefully short of WP:SIGCOV. I'm definitely still a delete !vote. Jogurney (talk) 21:40, 9 March 2023 (UTC)[reply]
  • Delete The most "significant" fact is simply his debut in the youth team, followed by some very brief facts about his background and aspirations, with no in-depth discussion about any of these things (thus not even close for GNG, let alone SUSTAINED). This is not surprising since the subject is only 15. Given that Wikipedia is a lagging indicator of notability, we should let other dedicated outlets cover his potential rise, and consider creating a page when coverage of that becomes both substantial and significant. Avilich (talk) 18:02, 9 March 2023 (UTC)[reply]
  • Delete. I don't think the coverage shown is enough for GNG – especially since we're more strict on those who are young, and this one's only 15. I'd be alright with draftification, although I think it'd probably be several years before Vosagaga has a chance at being notable. BeanieFan11 (talk) 19:03, 9 March 2023 (UTC)[reply]
  • Delete: This is WP:TOOSOON. I think JoelleJay's analysis of references also helps establish that there's not enough WP:SIGCOV to meet WP:GNG. Hey man im josh (talk) 20:00, 9 March 2023 (UTC)[reply]
  • Delete Agree with the other delete rationales. This person does not meet WP:GNG. And certainly not WP:YOUNGATH. The keep statements in the initial run show a clear lack of understanding of WP:GNG.Tvx1 22:37, 9 March 2023 (UTC)[reply]
  • Comment: There appears to be some claim to notability based on sources, but on the other hand, WP:FOOTY and WP:TOOSOON are issues to consider. Shawn Teller (talk) 02:45, 14 March 2023 (UTC)[reply]
The above discussion is preserved as an archive of the debate. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this page.
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