Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Marcus Lal

The following discussion is an archived debate of the proposed deletion of the article below. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this page.

The result was delete. 78.26 _{(spin me / revolutions)} 02:54, 15 March 2023 (UTC)[reply]

Marcus Lal

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PROD concern by User:Pichpich was Hasn't played a single game in a fully professional league or in senior international competitions. No sign of significant coverage. Removed by article creator without any edit summary or improvement to the article. The creator also removed the notability tag by User:Onel5969 without any edit summary or attempts to improve the article. Taking to AfD as I can't see any evidence of WP:GNG or WP:SPORTBASIC being met in my own searches either. Spiderone^{(Talk to Spider)} 19:05, 7 March 2023 (UTC)[reply]

Note: This discussion has been included in the deletion sorting lists for the following topics: Sportspeople, Football, and Oceania. Spiderone^{(Talk to Spider)} 19:05, 7 March 2023 (UTC)[reply]
Comment - please let me know if any issues with the below source analysis Spiderone^{(Talk to Spider)} 19:11, 7 March 2023 (UTC)[reply]

Source	Independent?	Significant coverage?	Count source toward GNG?
Source assessment table:
https://www.manlyunitedfc.com.au/2022/10/21/lal-brothers-off-to-the-world-cup/	Manly United is Lal's employer so clearly not independent of Lal	~ Discusses his family a bit	✘ No
https://www.theroar.com.au/2022/06/17/fijis-football-youth-revolution-is-on/		Mentioned in one sentence	✘ No
https://amp.suara.com/bola/2023/02/10/174313/sepak-terjang-timnas-fiji-u-20-calon-lawan-timnas-indonesia-di-turnamen-mini		Not mentioned	✘ No
https://www.fbcnews.com.fj/sports/football/junior-bula-boys-shine-in-nz/		Mentioned once	✘ No
https://fijilive.com/football/2023/01/27/lal-joins-u20-camp-for-wc-prep/14068/		Confirms his age, name of father, name of brother and little else	✘ No
https://www.bolatimes.com/boladunia/2023/02/10/164500/profil-fiji-u-20-lawan-timnas-indonesia-u-20-di-turnamen-mini-jelang-piala-asia-u-20-2023		Squad list mention	✘ No
This table may not be a final or consensus view; it may summarize developing consensus, or reflect assessments of a single editor. Created using {{source assess table}}.

Spiderone^{(Talk to Spider)} 19:11, 7 March 2023 (UTC)[reply]

Note: This discussion has been included in WikiProject Football's list of association football-related deletions. Spiderone^{(Talk to Spider)} 19:14, 7 March 2023 (UTC)[reply]
Delete. I stand by my PROD rationale. Just a note on the three sources provided. The first is not independent of the subject since it's published by his team. The second has a passing mention: "Then there’s the prolific junior striker Marcus Lal, who’s coming off a great season with Manly United in the NSW NPL." (which is a dubious statement since he's a forward and has scored only 1 goal). The third is in Indonesian but it does not contain the words "Marcus" or "Lal". Finally, he plays in the New South Wales Premier League which is a semi-pro league. Pichpich (talk) 19:23, 7 March 2023 (UTC)[reply]
Delete - would have remained a few years ago prior to the downgrading of NFOOTY, but does not pass WP:GNG.Onel5969 ^{TT me} 19:31, 7 March 2023 (UTC)[reply]
Delete - no evidence of notability. If sources are found please ping me. Giant Snowman 19:39, 7 March 2023 (UTC)[reply]
Keep - sources added. These were easy to find, and it would be useful if people checked first, before going straight to deletion.--IdiotSavant (talk) 01:17, 8 March 2023 (UTC)[reply]

I did check first, if you look at my source analysis above, you can see I had found both of those sources already and explained why they don't show WP:SIGCOV. For those that didn't see my SA, FBC News only mentions Lal once so is clearly and obviously trivial coverage. Fiji Live is better but it still only mentions the names of two non-notable members of his family and the fact that he is 19 years old and nothing else. Nothing else at all. I don't see how this is worthy of a stand-alone article in a general encyclopaedia. Spiderone^{(Talk to Spider)} 09:11, 8 March 2023 (UTC)[reply]

Keep - @GiantSnowman:, sources added to article and article expanded. Clearly significant young figure in Fijian football with ongoing international career and club career abroad. Thanks, Das osmnezz (talk) 01:29, 8 March 2023 (UTC)[reply]
Nope, no significant coverage that I can see. Giant Snowman 18:35, 8 March 2023 (UTC)[reply]

He does not have an "ongoing international career". He played in one friendly against the development team of the semipro Auckland City FC. This was in preparation for the 2022 OFC U-19 Championship but there's no indication that he played in the actual tournament. Similarly, he attended the camp for the Fiji U20 camp but there's no indication that he's on the team and in particular, it seems clear that he has yet to play a single match for the U20. I'd also argue that being on the junior team of Fiji (which is what, 150th in the FIFA rankings?) does not make you notable, far from it. As far as a "club career abroad", let's get real. He's playing for a semipro team so he probably needs to have a second job to pay his rent. (And of course, none of the proposed sources meet WP:SIGCOV.) Pichpich (talk) 20:11, 8 March 2023 (UTC)[reply]
Keep - Multiple primary sources were posted with some secondary sources to assist, so he meets WP:GNG KatoKungLee (talk) 13:45, 8 March 2023 (UTC)[reply]

Just so you are aware, WP:SECONDARY sources are way better than WP:PRIMARY. Also, which sources count towards GNG? Do you disagree with my source analysis? If so, which parts have I got wrong? Spiderone^{(Talk to Spider)} 13:55, 8 March 2023 (UTC)[reply]

I think both of these should count as significant coverage and meeting WP:GNG - https://www.manlyunitedfc.com.au/2022/10/21/lal-brothers-off-to-the-world-cup/ and https://fijilive.com/football/2023/01/27/lal-joins-u20-camp-for-wc-prep/14068. I don't think the reliability concern is needed.KatoKungLee (talk) 15:08, 8 March 2023 (UTC)[reply]

Manly United would be his employer so doesn't count as independent - see WP:IS, section 3 - the table classes a person's employer as non-independent. I have 'significant coverage' on my own employer's website through a few things I've done such as Employee of the Month, charity events etc. but I don't qualify for an article because none of that has made it into independent, reliable sources that don't have any interest in promoting me. Spiderone^{(Talk to Spider)} 15:50, 8 March 2023 (UTC)[reply]

It's not being used to unfairly promote the players or something. I would disqualify it if they were saying, "Here's the great Marcus Lai. He is the best player ever and is sure to be the MVP of the tournament" or something of that nature. It's just mainly quotes from him.KatoKungLee (talk) 16:03, 8 March 2023 (UTC)[reply]

It's not a promotional source, correct, but it's obviously non-independent as it's his employer. Per WP:NIS, and I quote, Non-independent sources should never be used to support claims of notability, but can with caution be used to fill in noncontroversial details. Hopefully this settles things now. Spiderone^{(Talk to Spider)} 16:06, 8 March 2023 (UTC)[reply]

Delete: Despite the sources added, I still think this fails WP:GNG and WP:SIGCOV based on Spiderone's source analysis. Hey man im josh (talk) 14:57, 8 March 2023 (UTC)[reply]
Delete. Spiderone's analysis is spot-on. The sources added and being defended here are of the same miserable quality as those pushed by the same group of editors in hundreds of other AfDs closed as delete. It would be helpful if whoever closes this acknowledges that anti-consensus behavior like continuously asserting non-independent and clearly trivial sources meet GNG is disruptive. JoelleJay (talk) 18:25, 8 March 2023 (UTC)[reply]
Delete I agree with Spiderone's analysis of the sources. Subject fails WP:GNG due to lack of significant coverage. Alvaldi (talk) 21:34, 8 March 2023 (UTC)[reply]
Delete Fails GNG with not one single example of independent SIGCOV. Avilich (talk) 18:12, 9 March 2023 (UTC)[reply]
Keep passes GNG, don't agree with analysis of above sources for fijilive.com, which I think is significant.--Ortizesp (talk) 18:42, 9 March 2023 (UTC)[reply]
One source is not enough to meet GNG. JoelleJay (talk) 18:45, 9 March 2023 (UTC)[reply]
Find me where it says that. Ortizesp (talk) 20:44, 10 March 2023 (UTC)[reply]
Well, the use of the plural reliable sources in WP:GNG is a big clue. But if you want an even more explicit statement, WP:NBASIC says "People are presumed notable if they have received significant coverage in multiple published secondary sources that are reliable, intellectually independent of each other, and independent of the subject.". Pichpich (talk) 22:48, 10 March 2023 (UTC)[reply]

I am astounded you're asking that. JoelleJay (talk) 23:49, 10 March 2023 (UTC)[reply]
Delete per source analysis by Spiderone, though I think the Fijilive source is borderline acceptable (either way, that alone wouldn't satisfy GNG). Frank Anchor 18:56, 9 March 2023 (UTC)[reply]
Delete - Obvious failure of WP:GNG with no significant coverage in reliable sources. Jogurney (talk) 14:36, 10 March 2023 (UTC)[reply]
Delete - Fails WP:GNG. Sportsfan 1234 (talk) 23:58, 10 March 2023 (UTC)[reply]

The above discussion is preserved as an archive of the debate. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this page.