Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/List of National Basketball Association team presidents

The following discussion is an archived debate of the proposed deletion of the article below. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this page.

The result was no consensus. I could relist this, but it's been awhile. Let me offer one tip: Someone may want to go in and reorganize, or reclassify the criteria or do a RM or something because odds are it will be here again and it might not make it next time. This is precisely the kind of AFD that needs to generate activity AFTER the discussion to address the problems brought up. For now, opinions are all over the place, so I'm calling it no consensus. Dennis Brown - 2¢ 23:26, 15 April 2021 (UTC)[reply]

List of National Basketball Association team presidents

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The list in question (along with List of National Basketball Association general managers, which was used as example) is subject to WP:OTHERSTUFF and WP:NOTDIR. The NBA teams can have more than one president for different sections (basketball operations, business operations, etc). – Sabbatino (talk) 07:56, 15 March 2021 (UTC)[reply]

* There is an Article titled List of Portland Trail Blazers executives. Only NBA team with this type of article.

* And NBA Executive of the Year - DrumFan4ever (talk) 17:19, 15 March 2021 (UTC)[reply]

Note: This discussion has been included in the list of Lists of people-related deletion discussions. Spiderone^{(Talk to Spider)} 21:29, 15 March 2021 (UTC)[reply]

Note: This discussion has been included in the list of Basketball-related deletion discussions. Spiderone^{(Talk to Spider)} 21:29, 15 March 2021 (UTC)[reply]

Comment. I don't understand much of the nomination, everything in it prior to "NOTDIR" seems like it's in response to a comment that must have been made elsewhere by someone else. I also don't know whether the fact that there are multiple presidents per team has any bearing. Anyway, those with subject matter familiarity can speak better to how significant this role is to note, and to index together across the entire NBA. We do have Category:National Basketball Association team presidents, though it is not well populated, but I wonder if it's because most of the eligible entries are in the parent Category:National Basketball Association executives instead? Many of the entries in this list (whether rightly or wrongly) are also not wikilinked. postdlf (talk) 21:50, 15 March 2021 (UTC)[reply]
Userfy? Clearly, there's been a lot of work done with the article, and I hope we can salvage some of that effort. But the scope of the page has never been clear to me. For example, Artūras Karnišovas specifically has the job title of vice president. (Maybe we could call the page List of National Basketball Association team leaders?) The organization and presentation can use some retooling, and I have some ideas for how to simplify things, but first I'd need to understand what we really want to accomplish here. Zagalejo (talk) 03:36, 16 March 2021 (UTC)[reply]
Delete Does not meet WP:LISTN, namely discussed as a group or set by independent reliable sources If these types of groups were notable, they wouldn't be limited to current directory listings, they would include past position holders as well. Current directories of team owners, general managers, and coaches exist, but I consider those more WP:IAR for popular positions. I don't consider team president one of them.—Bagumba (talk) 10:38, 16 March 2021 (UTC)[reply]
If there is any additional support I can provide, please suggest options. I hope to preserve as much data as possible, whether or not it is moved to another article. DrumFan4ever (talk) 20:49, 16 March 2021 (UTC)[reply]

I think it's clear that "team president" is too fuzzy of a concept to work with. But we may be able to repurpose this as a more general list of key executives. A lot of the data in the table would need to be dropped for ease of reading, but we could possibly do something like this table in my sandbox. (This is just a very simple mock up. I'm rusty with tables, and there are more sophisticated things we can do with the formatting. I just wanted to give a general idea of how this topic could be presented.) Please wait to see how the overall discussion develops, though. I wouldn't recommend spending more time on this unless it becomes obvious that the list will be kept in some form. Zagalejo (talk) 16:31, 17 March 2021 (UTC)[reply]

@Zagalejo: I will stand by and wait for a consensus to be reached. I agree with your thoughts: possibly changing name to 'key executives' and condensing info as shown in your sandbox. - DrumFan4ever (talk) 21:01, 17 March 2021 (UTC)[reply]

@Zagalejo and DrumFan4ever: There's still no evidence that this meets WP:LISTN. Expanding the net from just presidents to the wider key executives brings concerns of WP:INDISCRIMINATE.—Bagumba (talk) 14:53, 20 March 2021 (UTC)[reply]

Do you think List of National Basketball Association general managers runs afoul of INDISCRIMINATE? I think a broader “executives” list could solve issues that are also present in the GM list (eg, confusion between GMs and EVPs of Basketball Operations). Zagalejo (talk) 19:51, 25 March 2021 (UTC)[reply]

GMs probably pass WP:LISTN. Like I mentioned earlier, they're so oft-mentioned, people would probably WP:IAR keep GMs (and owners) anyways, even if LISTN wasn't demonstrated. Not so here.—Bagumba (talk) 09:45, 29 March 2021 (UTC)[reply]

Articles suggest the EVP of Basketball Operations outranks the GM. So some team roster decisions are solely caused by the EVP not GM. Is this not worthwhile to distinguish? Can more team articles be created like List of Portland Trail Blazers executives? DrumFan4ever (talk) 19:16, 29 March 2021 (UTC)[reply]

Wikipedia notability isn't based off one's corporate hierarchy, it's based off of coverage in sources. If sources are identified that establish LiSTN for this topic, I can reconsider.—Bagumba (talk) 11:21, 1 April 2021 (UTC)[reply]

Relisted to generate a more thorough discussion and clearer consensus.
Relisting comment: Possibility of rescoping and alternatives to deletion that should be discussed more thoroughly.
Please add new comments below this notice. Thanks, ~ Aseleste (t, e | c, l) 03:06, 23 March 2021 (UTC)[reply]

Relisted to generate a more thorough discussion and clearer consensus.
Please add new comments below this notice. Thanks, Seraphimblade ^{Talk to me} 01:15, 2 April 2021 (UTC)[reply]

Keep — It could possibly be renamed to "list of... executives", but the topic itself is notable and has certainly been discussed as a group before. I didn't do a particularly extensive search, but a quick Google search turned up at least the following results: this one, along with many other similar articles, describes their collective response last year to the coronavirus pandemic; this one discusses the increase of female presidents of CEOs of NBA teams during the last decade, and finally this one seems to be about the racial makeup of the group. 3 kids in a trenchcoat (talk) 06:14, 2 April 2021 (UTC)[reply]
The third source is more about NBA executives and coaching staffs racial makeup in general, not specifically for presidents. Incidentally, that topic is also overlapped by the existing Race and ethnicity in the NBA.—Bagumba (talk) 03:01, 11 April 2021 (UTC)[reply]
If true, then why not re-name to 'list of NBA... "executives" or "presidents of basketball operations' or 'presidents of business operations'? NBA Executive of the Year Award were just given to Lawrence Frank, Daryl Morey, R. C. Buford, and Masai Ujiri. Each of them are considered team presidents. As such, having these award nominees and others in this table's grouping should hold merit as they are not grouped anywhere else. More examples of articles on team presidents: 'Clippers president Lawrence Frank wins NBA Executive of the Year Award'/'team presidents operating with intent to resume season'/'investigating bigotry allegation against Utah Jazz vice president Dennis Lindsey'/'video shows deputy shove Raptors president Masai Ujiri during altercation at NBA Finals' /'Top 5 Executives in the NBA'/ 'State Warriors president/COO Rick Welts to retire after season'/'president Tim Connelly on landing Aaron Gordon, JaVale McGee'/'president Daryl Morey says 3-pointers should be worth 2.5 points: 'It's just too big of a bonus' / '76ers president Daryl Morey calls job 'can't-miss opportunity;' will reportedly make over $10M per season/ president Rinehart talks about Kings' employee layoffs'/ 'resets Nets executive corps with hires from Dodgers, Celtics, Alibaba'/'Marshall- first Black woman CEO in NBA'- DrumFan4ever (talk) 23:27, 13 April 2021 (UTC)[reply]
They are not presidents, but rather presidents of basketball operations. And plenty of GMs have won the award. The problem is that teams have varying corporate structures. Jeanie Buss is the president of the Lakers, but she will never be considered a candidate for Executive of the Year because she is not directly involved in basketball personnel decisions. Same of a president of marketing, if a team has one. The issue is coming up with an accurate description for the "position(s)" you are trying to describe. This is highlighted by one of the sources you listed, The Ringer's "The Top 5 Executives in the NBA": The qualities that make up a good general manager or president of basketball operations may be up for debate On the one hand, the title refers to "executive", which is too generic, but then it refers to two specific positions—general manager and pres. of basketball operation—and some teams have only one and others both.—Bagumba (talk) 01:45, 14 April 2021 (UTC)[reply]
Delete - Fails to meet WP:LISTN.Riteboke (talk) 16:34, 13 April 2021 (UTC)[reply]
Keep This is an identifiable group (NBA Presidents) and there are reliable sources covering this idea and topic. I'm not a huge fan of the way that this List is presented but AfD is not cleanup and that doesn't change their notability (in my view) under our guidelines. Best, Barkeep49 (talk) 19:21, 15 April 2021 (UTC)[reply]

The above discussion is preserved as an archive of the debate. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this page.