Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Indonesia Orthodox Church (2nd nomination)

The following discussion is an archived debate of the proposed deletion of the article below. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this page.

The result was keep. Consensus here - with different editors - matches consensus from 1st AfD which was held less than six months ago and offers no substantially different notability claim. Barkeep49 (talk) 03:46, 24 October 2019 (UTC)[reply]

Indonesia Orthodox Church[edit]

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Although the former AfD debate has proven this denomination to exist as a religious organisation supported by the Russian Orthodox Church Outside of Russia, there is no indicator that it is anything but a ROCOR deanery in Indonesia. Not in this article's now defunct source, not in the links given in the previous debate, not in the sources backing up Fr. Daniel Bambang Dwi Byantoro's article. Although there are a couple of articles in Wikipedia for deaneries, the only ones that should clearly be kept are either truly independent (like the Deanery of Strandebarm, as opposed to the merely alleged independence of the IOC), or are historical, such as the Deanery of St Patrick. The IOC wouldn't be the only non-church in the world to use such a title: the Polish archdiocese of Rio de Janeiro and Olinda-Recife, for instance, uses the title "Brazilian Orthodox Church", mostly in secular documents, but this doesn't make it an autonomous, let alone "independent" (autocephalous?), Orthodox jurisdiction. Leefeni^{aures audiendi audiat} 10:24, 7 October 2019 (UTC)[reply]

Note: This discussion has been included in the list of Indonesia-related deletion discussions. Coolabahapple (talk) 04:23, 8 October 2019 (UTC)[reply]

Note: This discussion has been included in the list of Organizations-related deletion discussions. Coolabahapple (talk) 04:23, 8 October 2019 (UTC)[reply]

Note: This discussion has been included in the list of Christianity-related deletion discussions. Coolabahapple (talk) 04:23, 8 October 2019 (UTC)[reply]

Comment, sorry, but doesn't it need to meet WP:NORG/WP:GNG to warrant an article? i don't see the relevance of being a deanery or otherwise. Coolabahapple (talk) 04:30, 8 October 2019 (UTC)[reply]

The fact that there aren't articles on deaneries around, even though there are thousands, maybe tens of thousands, of larger ones around the world across denominations, makes me think that the Wikipedia article, and perhaps its sources, misread the real situation of the deanery, to the point that the article mentions the supposed church being "recognised" rather than submitted to the diocese, and someone even added the Indonesian Orthodox Church to this list. Leefeni^{aures audiendi audiat} 01:58, 13 October 2019 (UTC)[reply]

Keep. Eastern Orthodox churches are found throughout the world and despite this denomination being small in Indonesia, it has a notable presence there. The Russkiy Mir Foundation has an article on the Indonesian Orthodox Church. [1] Bmbaker88 (talk) 23:37, 11 October 2019 (UTC)[reply]

My point is that there is no such a thing as an "Indonesian Orthodox Church", there is the Orthodox Church in Indonesia. There are articles online for Orthodox presence in any country, which doesn't mean there is such a thing as a "Kenyan Orthodox Church" or a "Luxembourgish Orthodox Church". Leefeni^{aures audiendi audiat} 01:58, 13 October 2019 (UTC)[reply]

Both Comment and Cautiously Keep, as my previous reason and others who last time voting on keep this months ago, has only evidence that this "deanery" for its existence was founded as a separate predominantly accepted 'semi-canonical' Orthodox church by a semi-Autonomous Orthodox Church (the Russian Orthodox Church Outside of Russia, itself), along there are few secondary articles treating it as much.

Plus, if you have a problem with this church existence as a universally de jure Independent/Non-canonical Eastern Orthodox Church, rather than demanding a already unnecessary second deletion within a year as the first deleted nomination already happened, why you can't debated about the problem at its talk page on renamed it as a Deanery for the semi-Autonomous Orthodox Church, and add sources to back up your claimed? Chad The Goatman (talk) 05:43, 13 October 2019 (UTC)[reply]

I will make the relevant editions, but, regarding why I suggested a deletion debate, I have already answered. Leefeni^{aures audiendi audiat} 18:07, 13 October 2019 (UTC)[reply]

Relisted to generate a more thorough discussion and clearer consensus.
Please add new comments below this notice. Thanks, Stifle (talk) 16:38, 14 October 2019 (UTC)[reply]

Keep. Notable small denomination. I find the repeated AfD nominations disruptive. Wm335td (talk) 17:59, 14 October 2019 (UTC)[reply]
Merge with and redirect to Russian Orthodox Diocese of Sydney, Australia and New Zealand since this deanery is part of this diocese since 2003. Veverve (talk) 23:10, 14 October 2019 (UTC)[reply]

Excellent idea, thank you. I agree. Leefeni^{aures audiendi audiat} 04:10, 15 October 2019 (UTC)[reply]

@Coolabahapple, Bmbaker88, Chad the Goatman, and Wm335td: Any thoughts?

Comment: I think some of you confuse the subject of this article (a deanery of the ROCOR) with the subject of an article which does not exist (yet) on the English Wikipedia: Eastern Orthodoxy in Indonesia [ru]. Veverve (talk) 02:00, 21 October 2019 (UTC)[reply]
Keep notable religious organization which passes the notability requirements as established by the first AFD. Article still needs improvement and expansion though. Although I do not support such a proposition, in the case that there is not a consensus to keep, a move to Eastern Orthodoxy in Indonesia would probably be most appropriate. Inter&anthro (talk) 14:35, 21 October 2019 (UTC)[reply]
Keep. Easily passes WP:GNG. There's no need to move either as the title is the legal name of the diocese per the cited reliable source. The article is fine as it is. I would further note that the diocese is an actual institution and is notable on its own. "Eastern Orthodoxy in Indonesia" would be a completely separate and broader topic on the history of Eastern Orthodoxy in that country. The institution would still need it's own separate article.4meter4 (talk) 19:14, 22 October 2019 (UTC)[reply]

The above discussion is preserved as an archive of the debate. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this page.