Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Houston-Texas football rivalry

The following discussion is an archived debate of the proposed deletion of the article below. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this page.

The result was no consensus. Yunshui ^雲 _水 10:41, 2 October 2018 (UTC)[reply]

Houston-Texas football rivalry[edit]

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Per WP:GNG, rivalries aren't inherently notable. Significant coverage is required. And, running a Google search, I could not find a single source that covers or even mentions a football rivalry between Houston and Texas. If significant coverage can be established, I'm open to changing my mind, but so far I have been unable to find anything

Okay, so I will admit that the Houston-Texas rivalry may not be as big or as important as the Texas-OU rivalry or the Houston-Rice rivalry, however, this historical rivalry at its heyday has provided many intense and emotional games that fans/alumni I’ve spoken to nowadays still get heated over. I’m not sure where you got that “there are no articles” point from, as a simple Google search provided me with a fair amount of articles such at this Bleacher Report article linked (https://bleacherreport.com/articles/378202-how-the-texas-longhorns-diminished-college-football-in-texas) that provided an in-depth look at the animosity between U of H and UT’s athletic departments. The following text samples some of that tension:

“Although the Houston Cougars did not join the SWC until 1977 and only lasted in the conference 21 years, the Longhorns learned to despise the upstarts from mud city, the demeaning label applied to the Bayou City for much of the early 20th century … UT claims UH did not play fair … The Cougars represented a huge financial risk to the Horns as well as being a renegade program” and thus UT “abandon[ed] Houston.”

In other words, UT bolted for a better athletic conference using propagated claims against UH. I’d say that’s a lot of hate. UH also has their entire hand sign based off their hatred for UT, proving that there is definitely hatred stemming from both sides.

So why does this rivalry game matter nowadays? It is a historic rivalry, meaning that many notable and important games were played in the past when the two teams were part of the Southwest Conference. These include when Houston handed no. 4 Texas one of two losses or ties in 1968, or when Houston beat no. 6 Texas for one of only three losses in 1978, or when unranked Houston tied the no. 5 Longhorns for one of only two losses or ties in 1981, or when unranked Houston derailed UT’s national championship hopes in 1984 by beating no. 3 Texas, or when Houston’s 47-9 blowout of UT in 1989 helped Andre Ware win the Heisman Trophy. This rivalry also left Houston fans upset, such as when UT handed no. 5 Houston their only loss late in the season in 1979, preventing Houston from claiming a national championship, or when UT again handed No. 3 Houston their only loss of the season in 1990, Houston’s highest ranking in the AP Poll.

But to answer the question of why the rivalry game matters today, you only need to look at the intense anger Houston fans and alumni had when head coach Tom Herman bolted for the same position at UT. And it wasn’t just any ordinary coaching change, as reports came out of Herman ditching his courtesy car on the side of the road (http://larrybrownsports.com/college-football/houston-booster-darryl-schroeder-unloads-tom-herman/336644 -again, another article) making fans angry as described in forums such as this one (https://247sports.com/college/ohio-state/Board/121/Contents/Tom-Herman-Snake-Oil-Salesmen-Screws-UH-Royally--49544489). Other petty acts Herman did at UH such as refusting to interview with UH’s radio show (https://www.chron.com/sports/cougars/article/UH-coach-Tom-Herman-cuts-off-SportsRadio-610-9195612.php) or bolting even as Houston’s top school officials promised him incredible amounts of money (https://www.chron.com/sports/cougars/article/Tilman-Fertitta-ready-to-spend-to-keep-Tom-Herman-10629214.php) should help prove my point. Herman hasn’t helped out the situation either, only adding fuel to the fire when he accused Houston fans of “fit[ting] whatever narrative they’d like to fit in” (https://www.hookem.com/2017/04/20/tom-herman-leaving-houston-texas-sleep-easy-knowing-never-lied-player/) in blaming him for abandoning his players.

Thus, the Houston-Texas rivalry is still going strong today, with UT snidely scheduling games with Houston’s crosstown rival Rice (who usually finished in last place in the former Southwest Conference) and snubbing Houston - as well as U of H selling t-shirts in their campus bookstore proclaiming that their two favorite teams are Houston and anyone playing Texas (https://uh.bncollege.com/webapp/wcs/stores/servlet/Houston_Cougars_Champion_Long_Sleeve_TShirt/ProductDisplay?imageId=1223539&level=&graphicId=APC02975075001&categoryId=40425&catalogId=10001&langId=-1&storeId=19067&productId=400000007110). Keep in mind many existing college football “rivalry” pages on Wikipedia don’t even have so much of a description of why the rivalry is a big deal, which was included in the UT-Houston rivalry article. This rivalry isn’t the main rivalry for either team by any means but the animosity is clearly visible that articles such as the ones above can help make evident.

I hope this quick write-up has shown everyone why this rivalry game is a big deal. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Nomel6510 (talk • contribs) 22:42, 28 August 2018 (UTC)[reply]

Comment. I am on the fence and will need to review in greater detail. However, I did find this from 1981 in which UT coach Akers said of the Houston series: "this has become quite a rivalry ... it doesn't go back as long as some but it's as intense as any of them." (BTW, it would be helpful if everyone above [nominator included] could sign/format their comments. As currently formatted, it's hard to tell who is saying what.) Cbl62 (talk) 13:26, 29 August 2018 (UTC)[reply]
Automated comment: This AfD was not correctly transcluded to the log (step 3). I have transcluded it to Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Log/2018 September 2. —^{cyberbot I}_{Talk to my owner:Online} 02:01, 2 September 2018 (UTC)[reply]

Note: This discussion has been included in the list of Texas-related deletion discussions. CAPTAIN RAJU^(T) 02:15, 2 September 2018 (UTC)[reply]

Note: This discussion has been included in the list of Sports-related deletion discussions. CAPTAIN RAJU^(T) 02:15, 2 September 2018 (UTC)[reply]

Note: This discussion has been included in the list of American football-related deletion discussions. North America¹⁰⁰⁰ 03:31, 2 September 2018 (UTC)[reply]

Comment – @Nomel6510: I will say that, for encyclopedic purposes, it does not matter whether the series is notable now; if it was notable forty years ago, it is notable now, as notability on Wikipedia is not temporary. PCN02WPS (talk | contribs)> 04:56, 3 September 2018 (UTC)[reply]

I don't particularly care about this rivalry, but you are 100% correct Nome16510. It's sad and embarrassing that history is erased everyday on Wikipedia even after notability has been established. No wonder studies show kids are learning less and less about history. Guess we're also part of the problem and not the solution. Happens way too often on here. Spatms (talk) 05:28, 20 September 2018 (UTC)[reply]

Follow-up comment – if this article is kept, the page needs to be moved so that the title is Houston–Texas football rivalry, with an en-dash instead of a hyphen. PCN02WPS (talk | contribs) 22:03, 3 September 2018 (UTC)[reply]

Move done. Jweiss11 (talk) 16:28, 4 September 2018 (UTC)[reply]

Delete just a gut reaction here, so the closer of this discussion could choose to ignore me and would well be within their rights. Heck, if I were the closer I would probably ignore this comment. I have relatives in Texas who talk football all the time, and love them Longhorns... and none of them reminisce about "the big rivalry with the University of Houston" … as in ever. I'm just not convinced that this particular article makes Wikipedia better.--Paul McDonald (talk) 03:30, 5 September 2018 (UTC)[reply]

Relisted to generate a more thorough discussion and clearer consensus.
Please add new comments below this notice. Thanks, So Why 15:31, 10 September 2018 (UTC)[reply]

Keep The history of this rivalry needs to be preserved. I dont understand why this should be deleted. Spatms (talk) 16:28, 15 September 2018 (UTC)[reply]
Delete I hate to accuse but I think the article creator, Nomel6510, may be a bad actor here. From his edit history, he seems to be rather focused on Houston football, to the extent that he might be a fan of the program or perhaps an alumnus. In the spirit of fair disclosure, I am a Texas alumnus myself. To be clear, I don't think being affiliated with Houston would necessarily invalidate his position, but his bias should be considered.

Obviously, I can't confirm Nomel's affiliation, it's just a hunch. Regardless, a Houston fan would have a perverse incentive to create this page. Per multiple media reports, Houston has for the past several years been unsuccessfully attempting to enter the Big 12 conference. Using a public platform to state that Houston has a rivalry with a Big 12 member is arguably an attempt to help Houston's bid by establishing a stronger historical connection. There are no doubt some Houston fans who consider this a rivalry but there are a dearth of Texas fans who consider it similarly as others have noted. In my opinion, a rivalry should be two-sided with both sides acknowledging each other. I must acknowledge that Nomel has done a good job in cherry picking the limited pieces of information that support his point but he has failed to establish proof of any consensus within the respective fanbases or the college football community overall. College football reporters are infamous for having wildly different opinions. To my knowledge, the Houston-Texas series has never appeared in any public poll or ranking of major football rivalries and that I argue is the strongest evidence. Here is a comparison link of Google search terms showing a complete lack of public interest in the search terms "Texas Houston Rivalry" and "Houston Texas Rivalry" versus "Red River Showdown":
https://trends.google.com/trends/explore?date=all&q=texas%20houston%20rivalry,houston%20texas%20rivalry,%2Fm%2F03_g66

Nomel6510 argues that the decision of Texas to schedule Rice constitutes an acknowledgement by Texas of a Houston-Texas football rivalry. This is patently ridiculous for the same reason that scheduling Rice does not constitute an acknowledgement of Kent State as a rival. There are hundreds of schools in NCAA football. Rice is Texas's most scheduled out-of-conference opponent since the collapse of the SWC (and probably vice-versa for Rice). All this proves is that Texas prefers to schedule Rice over all other out-of-conference options. To think that Houston is somehow being "singled out" by that is an extreme stretch of imagination and reinforces my point about potential bias.

Historically, Houston was a conference opponent for Texas. Currently, Houston is just an in-state competitor for recruits and coaches. At no point was there widely considered to be a major rivalry between the two teams. There are indeed documented instances where fans and coaches on both sides have referred to it as a rivalry. That must be weighed against all of the fans and coaches who do not consider it a rivalry (and hence make no reference to it at all).

I recommend the deletion of this page. Failing that, I would recommend the renaming of the page to "Houston–Texas football series" which would allow for the preservation of information but distinguish it from actual and well-recognized rivalries. However, I would strongly caution against that action. It is not reasonable for Wikipedia to have a series page for every pair of football teams that play more than 10 games against each other. That would easily be several hundred additional pages of dubious notability. I consider deletion to be the most sensible option.

Thank you for considering my opinion. 2601:281:8200:ABD0:1959:D77F:513:FE5D (talk) 08:17, 16 September 2018 (UTC)'[reply]

Caution I would like to caution that editors are free to be enthusiastic about any topic, and that enthusiasm does not necessarily mean they have bad faith.--Paul McDonald (talk) 13:04, 17 September 2018 (UTC)[reply]

Comment. I feel it's worth pointing out that the editor who originally initiated this AfD (User:CalebHughes) has since been indefinitely blocked for sockpuppetry, FWIW. As for the merits of the article itself, WP:GNG and WP:NTEMP are the two applicable policies in play here, keeping in mind that the era in which this series was most likely to be considered a rivalry occurred well before the invention of the internet (thus, it's very possible that coverage of the series as a rivalry is primarily only available in offline sources). No doubt, this series probably means more today to Houston fans than to Texas fans, but whether it's a rivalry right now is irrelevant - if it was a rivalry back in the 70's & 80's, then it's still a rivalry today, per WP:NTEMP. Ejgreen77 (talk) 18:26, 17 September 2018 (UTC)[reply]
Delete Sockpuppetry aside, there's nothing in the article discussing this as a rivalry, nor can I find any source which even mentions this as a "rivalry." Crufty, fails WP:GNG as a rivalry, even if the games are discussed. SportingFlyer talk 18:41, 17 September 2018 (UTC)[reply]

Relisted to generate a more thorough discussion and clearer consensus.
Relisting comment: I can discern only one policy-based argument here that is relevant to whether this should be kept or deleted. More would be helpful.
Please add new comments below this notice. Thanks, Vanamonde (talk) 19:38, 17 September 2018 (UTC)[reply]

Relisted to generate a more thorough discussion and clearer consensus.
Please add new comments below this notice. Thanks, MBisanz ^talk 01:08, 25 September 2018 (UTC)[reply]

The above discussion is preserved as an archive of the debate. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this page.