Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/House of Monok

The following discussion is an archived debate of the proposed deletion of the article below. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this page.

The result was no consensus‎. I think there would likely have been on consensus even if this hadn't been a bundled AfD but it being bundled didn't help as some people weighed in on all of them, others only some of them, and for others it was unclear which way it was going.

Based on what I presume to be commentary about House of Monok, that outcome would be no consensus leaning keep. There is no dispute that a noble Monok house existed and be verified but the discussion was unclear about whether coverage exists to demonstrate notability. Barkeep49 (talk) 19:22, 22 May 2023 (UTC)[reply]

House of Monok[edit]

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A noble family named Monoki existed in Hungary but scholarly works published in the 20th and 21th centuries do not refer to them. The article's sources are encyclopedias published in the 19th century that list more than 10,000 Hungarian noble families. We could hardly dedicate a separate article to each of them. Borsoka (talk) 15:31, 21 April 2023 (UTC)[reply]

I am also nominating the following related pages:

Elijah Monoky (edit | talk | history | protect | delete | links | watch | logs | views) because his notability has not been verified by references to 20th- and 21th-century scholarly works. He is mentioned in a handbook of Hungarian nobility published in the 19th century that mentions at least a hundred of thousands of Hungarian nobles. We could not create an article dedicated to each of them.

Note: This discussion has been included in the deletion sorting lists for the following topics: Royalty and nobility and Hungary. Shellwood (talk) 15:53, 21 April 2023 (UTC)[reply]
Keep House of Monok. Yes, majority of the genealogical works were published already in the 19th century. However, this is no reason to discard these academic sources (Karácsonyi, Nagy Iván etc.), which have been cited extensively in publications since then. The Monoki family from the Bogátradvány clan provided barons and office-holders in the 14th century, for instance, Sandrin (master of the stewards) and Michael (vice-ispán of Sáros County), see Engel, Pál: Középkori magyar genealógia (CD-ROM), a 21th century source. Therefore, this noble family is one of the relatively important local (county) noble families, so it is notable. Elijah Monoky and House of Mónek are not notable, however. --Norden1990 (talk) 20:15, 21 April 2023 (UTC)[reply]

Thank you for your vote. However, Wikipedia:NOTGENEALOGY: the notability of one, two or three members of a family does not establish the notability of the family. Engel's work is a precious and reliable source but we cannot dedicate an article to each family with a member who held an office. Borsoka (talk) 00:36, 22 April 2023 (UTC)[reply]

Yes, so we do not need to establish separate articles about family members, like Elijah Monoky, who is only known as a landowner. But the family, which descended from a prominent kindred, itself is notable. --Norden1990 (talk) 20:14, 22 April 2023 (UTC)[reply]

Delete: the two House articles per Wikipedia is not a geneology site. Delete Elijah Monoky per fails GNG and BIO, sources show the individual existed but little else. // Timothy :: talk 16:38, 26 April 2023 (UTC)[reply]
Delete No significant coverage. BruceThomson (talk) 10:32, 30 April 2023 (UTC)[reply]

Relisted to generate a more thorough discussion and clearer consensus.
Please add new comments below this notice. Thanks, Guerillero ^{Parlez Moi} 11:18, 1 May 2023 (UTC)[reply]

Keep all. Please refer to the history of each article before voting. After the House of Mónek article was blanked and replaced by an AfD notice, another editor restored this version with the comment "raising AfD after blanking out the article is not a best practice; partial restore". References do not have to be published in the 20th or 21st centuries to ve reliable. A "handbook of Hungarian nobility published in the 19th century" can be a reliable source. Eastmain (talk • contribs) 00:06, 2 May 2023 (UTC)[reply]

@Eastmain:, in Hungary nobility made up more than 4% of the population. Are you sure that we should dedicate an article to each noble families and noble individuals? Yes, the handbook of Hungarian nobility published in the 19th century can be a reliable source but are you sure that a family that is not covered in modern literature is notable enough to present it in WP. Furthermore, House of Mónek is a hoax based on the creator's own research in archives and travelers' lists. No such noble house existed. Borsoka (talk) 02:55, 2 May 2023 (UTC)[reply]

Delete The article is based on primary, archival and genealogical resources, and thus is original research. The sources are list entries and short genealogical entries; none is expositive. Lamona (talk) 00:41, 4 May 2023 (UTC)[reply]

Relisted to generate a more thorough discussion and clearer consensus.
Please add new comments below this notice. Thanks, CycloneYoris ^talk! 00:22, 9 May 2023 (UTC)[reply]

Weak keep for House of Monok, delete for Elijah Monoky and House of Mónek. House of Monok does have sufficient sources demonstrating its notability, while House of Mónek relies exclusively on original research. As for Elijah Monoky, most of its cited sources are inaccessible online, but the accessible sources did not cover the individual in much depth. Tutwakhamoe (talk) 07:00, 13 May 2023 (UTC)[reply]
Weak Keep: Agreed with Tutwakhamoe. CastJared (talk) 17:38, 20 May 2023 (UTC)[reply]

Keep all. The House of Monok page does have enough valid sources to prove it's notability and significance. I do, however, think that more sources are needed for the articles. I agree with Eastmain. FranzSebastianvH‬ (talk) 20:04, 21 May 2023 (UTC)[reply]

@FranzSebastianvH: could you refer to reliable sources verifying the notability of Elijah Monoky and the non-existing noble House of Mónek? Borsoka (talk) 02:52, 22 May 2023 (UTC)[reply]

The above discussion is preserved as an archive of the debate. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this page.