Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Ein HaShlosha massacre

The following discussion is an archived debate of the proposed deletion of the article below. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this page.

The result was merge‎ to 2023 Hamas-led attack on Israel. There is coverage, but not enough to sustain a separate article in the face of NOTNEWS and NOPAGE. No one is arguing the massacre should not be covered, the question was where. With respect to the target, noting, however, that should editorial consensus change to Ein HaShlosha as a target, that is fine. The consensus is not to maintain a standalone, however there is not a particular consensus on a target. Star Mississippi 18:47, 10 December 2023 (UTC)[reply]

Ein HaShlosha massacre[edit]

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As with several other pages on less prominent components of the 2023 Hamas attack on Israel, this page is unnecessary, not notable as a standalone event and should be deleted or merged back into the parent, which still only holds 24kB of readable prose, yet has been a source for far too many unnecessary child articles. This page's issues are compounded by its poor quality sourcing and fuzzy detail - as the page itself notes, the facts "are largely unknown" - and Haaretz stands alone as the only WP:RSP in sight. Iskandar323 (talk) 10:47, 11 November 2023 (UTC)[reply]

Note: This discussion has been included in the deletion sorting lists for the following topics: History, Israel, and Palestine. Iskandar323 (talk) 10:47, 11 November 2023 (UTC)[reply]

Oppose -

-The massacre has been featured in international press.

-The massacre is worth mention. In 2023 Israel-Hamas war page, there is ALWAYS talk of making new articles since the article is to big. Therefore we should not delete pages created on the subject that take off some of the load from the main article.

-This page exists in 9 different languages on Wikipedia.

-Regarding sources, Citations in regards to the occurence:

[1] - Specifically on Kibbutz (News from UK)

Spanish - [2] [3]

French - [4]

Russian - [5],

More: [6][7],[8],[9] (there are more Hebrew sources, but I think my point is clear). Homerethegreat (talk) 11:44, 11 November 2023 (UTC)[reply]

Regarding merger, Talk:Ein HaShlosha massacre#Proposed merge of 2023 Israel–Hamas war with Ein HaShlosha Massacre

This has already been discussed, and from what I saw, it's been opposed. So it must be an independent article. Regarding quality of source and adding more sources. Here above I added plenty, and also in the page article itself there are already sources other than Haaretz. Homerethegreat (talk) 11:49, 11 November 2023 (UTC)[reply]

If unclear in regards to the Oppose I wrote above. My meaning is Keep article. Homerethegreat (talk) 15:10, 11 November 2023 (UTC)[reply]

Merge into Ein HaShlosha. There are only 176 words even though fine details are provided. It would go perfectly well, and be easier to find, as a single section in the article on the kibbutz, which is also quite short. Zero^talk 12:37, 11 November 2023 (UTC)[reply]
It can be merged there too, but it's more obvious direct parent is the overarching page on the attack. Iskandar323 (talk) 12:40, 11 November 2023 (UTC)[reply]
Talk:Ein HaShlosha massacre#Proposed merge of 2023 Israel–Hamas war with Ein HaShlosha Massacre

This has already been voted on, and the result was against merger. Homerethegreat (talk) 15:09, 11 November 2023 (UTC)[reply]
That merger discussion hasn't been closed, and maybe never be. There appears to be no consensus. It was based on a different target, i.e.: 2023 Israel–Hamas war, which I agree is a nonsensical target since it's already overlength. Many of those opposed cited that as a reason. Here, the merge option presented is to a different target that has no such problems. Iskandar323 (talk) 15:33, 11 November 2023 (UTC)[reply]
Keep: Sources in article and above show this is clearly notable. BEFORE showed even more, but the above and in article sources are more than enough to show this meets WP:GNG. // Timothy :: talk 13:00, 11 November 2023 (UTC)[reply]
Note: This discussion has been included in the deletion sorting lists for the following topics: Events and Terrorism. Spiderone^{(Talk to Spider)} 13:22, 11 November 2023 (UTC)[reply]

Keep: The articles 2023 Hamas attack on Israel and 2023 Israel–Hamas war are already quite long. There are relevant details about many massacres (Re'im, Kfar Aza, Sderot, Be'eri, Netiv Ha'asara, Holit, Nir Oz and more), featured in international press. This calls for dedicating an article, even short ones, to each of these massacres. --GidiD (talk) 11:05, 12 November 2023 (UTC)[reply]
@GidiD: What are you saying? 2023 Hamas attack on Israel is exceptionally short and underdeveloped, with only 24kB of readable prose - well below the length for WP:TOOBIG concerns. Iskandar323 (talk) 11:24, 12 November 2023 (UTC)[reply]
1. This is a premature request for merge: Sadly, the 2023 conflict is an ongoing event, and probably all related articles would evolve as more facts are uncovered.

2. The article size you refer to (WP:TOOBIG) is just a rule of thumb, and other concerns may be more important. Further, there are many wiki articles with prose much shorter than 50K referencing sub-topics.

3. Prose size < 150 words would clearly require merging WP:SIZERULE- which is not the case here. And see also 1. GidiD (talk) 08:56, 13 November 2023 (UTC)[reply]
Merge to 2023 Hamas attack on Israel and Ein HaShlosha. Better contextualized there. Of course there're sources; there's probably news articles on every Israeli rocket strike on Gaza, but we don't ahem articles on them for the same reason. AryKun (talk) 17:30, 13 November 2023 (UTC)[reply]
Keep per Homerethegreat. Eladkarmel (talk) 07:37, 15 November 2023 (UTC)[reply]
Merge to 2023 Hamas attack on Israel and Ein HaShlosha per the rationale articulated at Talk:Ein HaShlosha massacre. There are at least nine articles about the various massacres that took place on October 7. Some of them are quite long and detailed and should remain standalone articles. But many others, including this one, are merely single-paragraph stubs that have demonstrated that they will not be expanded any time soon. Readers will have a much easier time accessing information about this attack and others if it is covered in an article about the attacks broadly as opposed to many poor-quality and stubby individual articles that readers are less likely to find. Vanilla Wizard 💙 20:20, 17 November 2023 (UTC)[reply]
30/500 Note The closer will have to ensure that all participants in this discussion are extended confirmed per WP:ARBECR as such restrictions apply to Israel-Palestine / Arab-Israeli conflict articles per WP:ARBPIA4. I tried my best to strike ineligible !votes myself in the last discussion, but I unfortunately don't have enough time on my hands to do it myself again. Vanilla Wizard 💙 20:26, 17 November 2023 (UTC)[reply]
- Have checked and everyone is as of right now. Cheers, Daniel (talk) 23:46, 18 November 2023 (UTC)[reply]
keep I agree with Homerethegreat who mentioned the arguments I wanted to bring up anyway.

~~Elie goodman (talk) 11:17, 18 November 2023 (UTC)~~ Sock strike. Daniel (talk) 23:44, 18 November 2023 (UTC)[reply]

Relisted to generate a more thorough discussion and clearer consensus.
Relisting comment: Relisting as opinion is divided between those arguing to Keep this article and those who'd prefer a Merge. As far as I can see, all participants here are extended confirmed.
Please add new comments below this notice. Thanks, Liz ^{Read! Talk!} 23:51, 18 November 2023 (UTC)[reply]

Keep Sadly, this event is very notable, and articles branching from the 2023 Israel-Hamas war page can help keep the main article from growing too lengthy. TH1980 (talk) 01:19, 19 November 2023 (UTC)[reply]
Strong Keep per Homerethegreat. With regards, Oleg Y. (talk) 16:02, 19 November 2023 (UTC)[reply]
Keep per Homerethegreat. We can revisit this in a year if some doubt this will be of enduring notability.VR _talk 05:29, 24 November 2023 (UTC)[reply]
Merge to 2023 Hamas attack on Israel and to Ein HaShlosha. Notable as it is, there's just not enough here to warrant a standalone article. Owen× ☎ 16:32, 25 November 2023 (UTC)[reply]

Relisted to generate a more thorough discussion and clearer consensus.
Relisting comment: Keep or merge?
Please add new comments below this notice. Thanks, CycloneYoris ^talk! 07:40, 26 November 2023 (UTC)[reply]

Merge As far as I see, merging the mentioned page to an appropriate article might be better; because it doesn't seem to be necessary to have an independent article for this subject. Ali Ahwazi (talk) 12:26, 26 November 2023 (UTC)[reply]

Keep. After looking at sources [10], it appears this page can be significantly expanded because a lot of details are missing. Moreover, this is a developing event. For example, what was/will be the fate of hostages taken from Ein HaShlosha by the militants? This alone will make a story. My very best wishes (talk) 04:26, 27 November 2023 (UTC)[reply]
Merge to 2023 Hamas attack on Israel. Not every component of this atrocious attack is independently notable. It is far WP:TOOSOON to tell which crimes will prove to have an enduring WP:EFFECT independent of the overall attack. For this particular article, the sources are WP:PRIMARYNEWS; no secondary analysis of this portion of the attack has emerged (as shown by the paucity of info in this article) and in-depth analysis does not exist yet; and the reporting around this element of the attack has not been WP:SUSTAINED other than in passing mentions (and those are in primary sources). This falls in WP:EVENTCRIT #4, an horrific act that is (and should be) covered in appropriate detail in the parent article. Cheers, Last1in (talk) 20:58, 28 November 2023 (UTC)[reply]
Keep Well documented incident in a historically notable run of attacks. I see no reason even to propose removal of such incidents. Mistamystery (talk) 22:09, 29 November 2023 (UTC)[reply]
Question - if this article is not necessary due to raised concerns, why is the nominator creating articles such as Beit Rima massacre about events of the same scale, with Ein ha-Shlosha being obviously more documented as massacre and showing intentional killing of civilians rather than collateral damage in Beit Rima including militants. Fraankly I find both not notable enough, but would be happy to get an answer whether this is a systemic bias of the nominator.GreyShark (dibra) 19:19, 30 November 2023 (UTC)[reply]
It is certainly odd that an editor would create one article, and nominate a similar one for deletion. But there's nothing improper about it. Editors change their mind, or wish to solicit debate about the necessity of such articles. I wouldn't rush to assume bad faith or a systematic bias. Let's discuss each article on merits alone, without pulling the author's or AfD nominator's history into the discussion. Owen× ☎ 20:04, 30 November 2023 (UTC)[reply]

You would do well not to project motives on other editors (advice I struggle at time to take). We are building an encyclopaedia; to do that we work on articles, not editors. Also, arguing against an article based on other articles is both dangerous water and explicitly recommended as something NOT to do. See WP:WHATABOUT.

I also have a two-fold answer for your question. First, that article is also in AfD right now and I don't think it passes WP:NEVENT with its existing sourcing. I would delete both, but for different reasons. Second, that has zero to do with this article. It has different issues as well as a viable parent article for the overall event. The 2023 Hamas attack on Israel is encyclopaedic and already has strong secondary sources (something that simply cannot be said for each individual atrocity that the event comprises, like the subject of this AfD). Cheers, Last1in (talk) 20:06, 30 November 2023 (UTC)[reply]
Keep. I strongly believe that the article should be kept on Wikipedia. This event is a significant part of history and provides valuable information for those seeking to understand the complexities of the region’s past. The article is well-sourced, providing multiple references to verify the information presented. It adheres to Wikipedia’s guidelines for neutrality, presenting facts without taking a side. Deleting this article would be a loss to the Wikipedia community and its readers worldwide. Therefore, I urge the moderators to consider the educational value and relevance of this article in their decision-making process. דור פוזנר (talk) 13:16, 3 December 2023 (UTC)[reply]
Merge this minor article into Ein HaShlosha article, will sit better there than anywhere else. Selfstudier (talk) 19:19, 8 December 2023 (UTC)[reply]
Merge to Ein HaShlosha as not significant enough for an individual page. Freinland (talk) 07:33, 9 December 2023 (UTC)[reply]
Keep This happened. this article shouldn't be deleted to favor ones bias, attempt to deny it happened. User:Iskandar323 has shown systemic bias against Israel on every, article posted about the Hamas Attack on Israel. on Every page he's asking to either rename articles from "massacres" to "attacks" to lessen the crimes the group has committed, and here again, he's attempting to do the same. in breach of WP:BIAS CViB (talk) 18:29, 9 December 2023 (UTC) Struck non-EC comment per WP:ARBECR. Iskandar323 (talk) 20:42, 9 December 2023 (UTC)[reply]
First, WP:BIAS is about systemic bias, not about accusing fellow editors of personal bias which is a breach of WP:CIVIL and WP:AGF. Second, It does not require a bias (in either direction) to support or oppose a position based on policy and reliable sources. Once, just once, I'd like to see a civil discussion in Middle East topics that does not end up with folks implying racist motives on pro-this or anti-the-other editors. We're here to build an encyclopaedia; if everyone can't leave their bigotry at the door, we will fail. Cheers, Last1in (talk) 18:39, 9 December 2023 (UTC)[reply]
Merge to 2023 Hamas attack on Israel, this is best covered in the parent article. I find myself in agreement with Last1in's comment above. Daniel (talk) 21:43, 9 December 2023 (UTC)[reply]

The above discussion is preserved as an archive of the debate. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this page.