User talk:Tom dl

Paolo

Did your picture of paolo have the correct spelling, because no image exists with that name. Maurauth ^(...) 08:05, 27 April 2007 (UTC)

Orphaned non-free media (File:3 vallees.jpg)

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Consensus??

Thats not a consensus. Those are suggested ideas from JULY OF 2009 for the nickname and the intro which did'nt get voted on nor did anything much change. Similiar suggstion for the article are here http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Talk:Michael_Jackson#This_article_is_in_a_sad_state. We are now in closing NOVEMBER 2009. If you feel like King of Pop should'nt be in the first paragraph due to it being "inapropriate" then it has to be changed in every article with a similiar first paragraph make ups as well not just Michael Jackson.

• http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Elvis_Presley
• http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Aretha_Franklin
• http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/James_Brown
• http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Roy_Acuff
• http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gladys_Knight
• http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Donna_Summer
• http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tina_Turner

and so many others A Star Is Here (talk) 20:44, 28 November 2009 (UTC)

Wikipedia:Featured picture candidates/Temple Square, Salt Lake City, 1899

An image created by you has been promoted to featured picture status Your image, File:Temple Square, Salt Lake City, 1899 retouched.jpg, was nominated on Wikipedia:Featured picture candidates, gained a consensus of support, and has been promoted. If you would like to nominate an image, please do so at Wikipedia:Featured picture candidates. Thank you for your contribution! Makeemlighter (talk) 01:42, 11 February 2012 (UTC)

POTD notification

POTD

Hi Tom,

Just to let you know that the Featured Picture File:Temple Square, Salt Lake City, 1899 retouched.jpg is due to make an appearance as Picture of the Day on June 9, 2013. If you get a chance, you can check and improve the caption at Template:POTD/2013-06-09. — Crisco 1492 (talk) 22:39, 22 May 2013 (UTC)

June 2013

Hello, I'm BracketBot. I have automatically detected that your edit to Cecil may have broken the syntax by modifying 1 "()"s. If you have, don't worry, just edit the page again to fix it. If I misunderstood what happened, or if you have any questions, you can leave a message on my operator's talk page.

List of unpaired brackets remaining on the page:

• *[[Lord David Cecil]] (born 1902, British biographer, historian and academic

Thanks, BracketBot (talk) 22:40, 22 June 2013 (UTC)

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MOS:GNL

Tom dl, MOS:GNL (which is a guideline, not a policy) does not mean that phrasing like "his or her" cannot or should not be used. As the Gender-neutral language article states, wording like "he or she" is considered gender-neutral language as well. And as the Singular they article states, use of singular they is debated. Some style guides discourage it. Furthermore, as MOS:GNL states, there are valid cases where gendered language should be used, such as if the topic is mainly or always described with gendered language by the literature. That stated, from what I've seen of your changes so far, your application of MOS:GNL has been fine. Yes, statistics do show that males commit significantly more murder and sexual assault than females do, but we generally shouldn't be stating "he" or "she" (meaning just one or the other) in place of "person." Not unless we are adhering to how a specific topic is usually defined/described. I do want to state that a case such as this one was undoubtedly a him. The history of rape is clear. Flyer22 Reborn (talk) 17:49, 9 August 2018 (UTC)

Oh, and regarding this, make sure not to tamper with quotes. MOS:GNL also states to leave quotes alone. Flyer22 Reborn (talk) 17:59, 9 August 2018 (UTC)

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Proposed deletion of François-Xavier Poizat

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Orphaned non-free image File:Is this thing loaded Northstar.jpg

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Pronouns they etc

Hi, thank you for your work on Wikipedia. However, please be careful about automatically replacing pronouns like "he" and "him" with "they" and "their" without checking the context. Often it can introduce confusion when several people are involved. Wikipedia does not deprecate single pronouns nor advocate plural ones and, in any case, understandability is the key. And there are often other ways of avoiding gender completely by recasting the sentence. Cheers. Bermicourt (talk) 21:40, 3 August 2022 (UTC)

Hi, thank you too for your work on Wikipedia. I'm sorry you think I haven't been careful about replacing pronouns like "he" and "him" with "they" and "their". I did check the context in all cases, and had to balance carefulness with speed. There are 1000s of articles which assume that men are default humans, and I would make very little progress if I spent as much time "recasting the sentence" as you may be suggesting. With regard to your claim that "Wikipedia does not deprecate single pronouns or advocate plural ones..." it appears you're making the common mistake of assuming that "they" and "their" etc are strictly plural. These words are the closest common thing we have in English to gender-neutral pronouns, and I share your disappointment that it can sometimes be misconstrued that they are used in the plural form. Where I have thought it easy to mitigate this confusion, I have tried to restate the subject of the sentence (e.g. "the person"). I will try to do better, but the line in the sand between speed and accuracy that I deem to be acceptable may be different to yours, and in these circumstances, I can only suggest that you follow my contributions and "recast" any sentences as you deem appropriate. The MOS does support gender-neutral language where it can be used with clarity and precision, as seen here: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/MOS:GNL and I suppose it is up to all of us to find an acceptable level of clarity and precision. Cheers. Tom dl (talk) 23:06, 3 August 2022 (UTC)

@Bermicourt I wasn't familiar with the reply button, but assuming this has a better chance of reaching you. Tom dl (talk) 07:58, 4 August 2022 (UTC)

p.s. on a more constructive note, please let me know of any particularly egregious places where you think I increased confusion, and I will take a look. I wouldn't want what I consider to be a worthwhile endeavour to be reverted because I were too disagreeable ;-)

You've definitely created confusion in some cases because I've had to refer to the original text to work out what's going on. In card games there are several players. If we say e.g. "the dealer deals 5 cards each and 5 to the table. They then pick up their cards and may exchange one with the table cards." Who does "they" refer to? The dealer or everyone? I am already steadily going through card articles recasting the text to avoid pronouns altogether, because editors keep mass-changing "he" or even "he or she" (which Wikipedia supports) to "they" without any understanding of the game rules. It's really not helpful. I'm not under some misapprehension that "they" is always plural - the point is, it's ambiguous. That doesn't matter in some sentences where it's clear who's being referred to, but it very much matters in others. If an editor changes everything to they/them, I have to go back to the original to see what it meant before amending the text to get rid of pronouns altogether. Please at least leave the card game articles alone until I get round to them. In the meantime I'm happy for you to point out ones that need attention. Bermicourt (talk) 08:02, 4 August 2022 (UTC)

Thanks for the feedback. I agree that some of my edits have increased confusion, so I appreciate you pointing that out. I am continuing to work through card game articles for now, with a new focus on clarity. I'll make sure that if I feel the text requires domain knowledge, I'll leave it as is and drop you a note. Usually if I can't tell from the text, it implies it was ambiguous even with the gendered pronouns, so hopefully this will be rare. Cheers Tom dl (talk) 08:15, 4 August 2022 (UTC)

Also, could you point me to some examples of recasting without pronouns? I'd be happy to follow suit (no pun intended) if it's reasonably quick to do. Tom dl (talk) 08:20, 4 August 2022 (UTC)

A common way is to change e.g. "If a player has a King, he must lead it to the first trick" to "A player who has a King, must lead it to the first trick". But I'd be grateful if you'd leave this to me and work on another field. I'm a card game researcher and am spending a lot of time already on getting rid of singular pronouns, not because they're bad - they are the clearest and succintest way of expressing the rules, that's why all card game books use them - but because editors keep substituting them without regard for whether the rules now make any sense to the reader. My topmost priority is to ensure readers can actually play the games properly from the Wikipedia article. Many great games are easy to play, but hard to describe accurately (e.g. Watten). Bermicourt (talk) 08:32, 4 August 2022 (UTC)

Ah great example, thanks. I'll try to do that if possible. I appreciate your topmost priority is to ensure readers can actually play the games properly, but Wikipedia is not a guidebook so I'd argue that things like not making non-male readers feel excluded can legitimately be my top priority instead. I think that difference in part explains why card game books use them - they're aiming for different things. As I said, I'll let you know whenever I'm in doubt, but please do let me know if you feel I'm still adding confusion - I will yield and "move on" if you really think so. Tom dl (talk) 08:46, 4 August 2022 (UTC)

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