User talk:Iry-Hor/Archive 6

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Khaba

This article (and the one above) concerns an Egyptian pharaoh of the early dynastic period. User Nephiliskos and I contributed to it but neither of us is a native English speaker. Furthermore, very few articles on pharaohs have reached GAN status. For these two reasons we would greatly appreciate some copyediting. Iry-Hor (talk) 09:33, 31 January 2014 (UTC)

 Working Tezero (talk) 00:56, 28 February 2014 (UTC)

Alright, I've finally gotten around to finishing it. I don't think the article's ready for GA, though: the introduction is too short and doesn't summarize the article well, and some of the information feels redundant or unneeded, e.g. everything that follows "Unfortunately, these lists offer no clear consensus about the number or names of the kings of the 3rd dynasty" in that paragraph. Tezero (talk) 17:19, 5 March 2014 (UTC)

Er, forgot to do this:  Done Tezero (talk) 21:10, 5 March 2014 (UTC)

@Tezero Thanks a lot for your work and advises. User @Nephiliskos and I will continue to improve the article until it has reached GA quality. In any case, your help is much appreciated! Iry-Hor (talk) 08:00, 6 March 2014 (UTC)

Hi, Iry-Hor! I have read Tezero's comment about the short introduction - right he is! And thus, I emanded it, I hope you like it. Regards;--Nephiliskos (talk) 03:50, 8 March 2014 (UTC)

Very good, these articles are getting better and better. One day they will be GA!. I did a little bit of English phrasing changes, I hope you find them ok. Iry-Hor (talk) 08:59, 8 March 2014 (UTC)

Hi. Yes, very good indeed! Thank you! I have contacted Tezero, thanked him and asked him, if he would take a look again. But for securing an really top up-to-date article, I will plunder my sources again. Who know's? ;) Regards;--Nephiliskos (talk) 13:08, 8 March 2014 (UTC)

Well according to Wikipedia:Manual_of_Style/Lead_section, the lead should reflect the content of the article and thus must have a clear and concise summary of each of the sections of the article. This is not yet the case, but we are getting there. Iry-Hor (talk) 18:37, 8 March 2014 (UTC)

And now? ;-) Regards;--Nephiliskos (talk) 17:26, 10 March 2014 (UTC) Besides: User:Tezero prposes a try at GA. Let's try!^^

@Nephiliskos: Not quite, let's do it this week end, there is a little modification I would like to do to the introduction. When I proposed the Pyramid of Userkaf for GA, I got problems because the reviewer wanted a little paragraph per section covered in the article. I can do this this week end. Also what about the word "mysterious"? I thought this king of adjectives were discouraged on wiki. Iry-Hor (talk) 16:00, 12 March 2014 (UTC)

Kunekune (Yokai)

Hi. Wanna get spooked? ;)) Just read...^^ Regards;--Nephiliskos (talk) 15:06, 30 March 2014 (UTC)

A japanese mix between a ghost and a Mothman, kind of (?). With your Utsuro-bune, you are becoming a specialist of the japanese crypto-culture! Iry-Hor (talk) 18:48, 30 March 2014 (UTC)

If you visit my German homepage, look at "Neuanlagen" ('new articles') under the section "Japanische Mythologie", you can see how many articles about yokai and stuff I have already written. ;-) Regards;--Nephiliskos (talk) 20:55, 30 March 2014 (UTC)

Re: the FIP

Hey, nice to see you :) My pleasure... Recalling an old interest for the Herakleopolite period, I got pissed off because of the chaotic situation I've found, and I thought it was inconceivable that a figure like Meryibre Khety did not have an article on en.wiki. Then, step by step I edited around, and now the two dynasties maybe are a bit more structured.
The FIP Theban period is ok; the Memphite one, well, too far and ancient compared to my knowledge and interest. I wanted to do something for the Herakleopolite one, although there are almost no date and archaeological findings... I think many kings are missing, but their names are not more than a papyrus crumb on the Turin Canon; it.wiki has an article for each of them, but I find it nonsense. I don't know who the heck is Setut, and at least two Neferkare are known (one for each dynasty) but they are almost impossible to distinguish... Furthermore, von Beckerath is always against the mainstream for this period, and de.wiki follows him, thus making difficult to make comparisons. Oh well, I'll try to do something nice... Khruner (talk) 23:33, 30 March 2014 (UTC)

Yes the difficulties are great, and as you say in many cases we know nothing beyond the name of the pharaoh. However, being an inclusionist, I think that every pharaoh should have his article. That does not mean that a pharaoh only known from the Turin canon should have a nearly empty article, and in fact there is always more to say e.g. debates about the identity and chronological position of the ruler almost always exist for shadowy kings. One might use Baker's encyclopedia of the pharaohs as a starting point to shed some light on the remote Memphite FIP and at the very least, the list of known pharaohs should be complete for the 7th, 8th, 9th and 10th dynasties. The task is formidable since there is no guiding book that I know of for this period and that would play the same role as Ryholt's book for the SIP. I might come to the FIP at some point in the future, but for the moment there are still attested pharaohs of the 13th, 14th and 16th dynasties without an article! Iry-Hor (talk) 07:00, 31 March 2014 (UTC)

I don't know how my phylosophy is called :) Anyway, I don't have Baker's encyclopedia so I have to rely mainly on The Cambridge Ancient History for this period. Anyway you are right about the attested rulers, I didn't know that Merdjefare did not have an article, nice work :) Khruner (talk) 08:49, 31 March 2014 (UTC)

This is in part covered by Deletionism and inclusionism in Wikipedia, which is a larger issue on the entire encyclopedia. I guess the debate here is not simply about the notability criterion (which is considered to be fulfilled by all pharaohs) but rather about the minimum amount of information required to create an article. This is quite interesting in fact, since the editors philosophies on this issue actually shape wikipedia and hence what most people have access to. Iry-Hor (talk) 13:35, 31 March 2014 (UTC)

Uh, interesting. Actually I don't feel to belong to either groups; if I find a "hopeless" (sub-standard & non-extendable) article, I don't see any reasons to delete it (unless if it's clearly non-encyclopedic), but at the same time I dislike creating a hopeless article, letting someone else create it if (s)he want, or waiting until some "hope" emerges (a new archaeological discovery, or a picture on Commons, for example)... Khruner (talk) 16:57, 31 March 2014 (UTC)

Horus Den and the god Heryshef

Hey-ho!^^ No problem, here is the entrance:

It reads (from left to right): Ah'-nesw-neniw-scha'a-netjer-ba-jwnw., meaning: "visitation of Nesw-neniw (lit. city of royal children → Herakleopolis Magna) and the lake of the 'Great god, soul of Jwnw' (Heryshef)." Hope, I helped you. Regards;--Nephiliskos (talk) 16:25, 7 April 2014 (UTC)

Here's a photo of the relevant entrance - see 3rd row from top, 9th register from right: http://www.catchpenny.org/thoth/Palermo/palermo1.htm Quality could be better, but you can clearly see the reference to nni-nswt (or nsw-neniw as Nephiliskos transcribes it)--WANAX (talk) 17:22, 7 April 2014 (UTC)

As a third hint, please read: de:Herakleopolis Magna. Regards;--Nephiliskos (talk) 17:39, 7 April 2014 (UTC)

@Nephiliskos, @WANAX: Wow guys amazing! So it is Herakleopolis Magna that is indeed referred to on the 36th year of Den. I asked because @Til Eulenspiegel recently undid a piping edit that was pointing to H. Magna in the 36th year entry of Den in Den (pharaoh). I think there is sufficient evidence here to affirm without it being original research, that the Heracleopolis mentioned in the article on Den is H. Magna. Iry-Hor (talk) 19:26, 7 April 2014 (UTC)

Don't worry, I got good and many-cited sources:

• Heinrich Schäfer: Ein Bruchstück altägyptischer Annalen (= Abhandlungen der Königlich Preussischen Akademie der Wissenschaften. Anhang: Abhandlungen nicht zur Akademie gehöriger Gelehrter. Philosophische und historische Abhandlungen. 1902, 1. Quartal). Verlag der Königlichen Akademie der Wissenschaften, Berlin 1902, p. 18-21.
• T.A.H. Wilkinson: Early Dynastic Egypt, p. 189-101 & 281.

Regards;--Nephiliskos (talk) 19:54, 7 April 2014 (UTC)

For the god Heryshaf/Heryshef/Herischef I highly recommend: Christian Leitz: Lexikon der ägyptischen Götter und Götterbezeichnungen (Orientalia Lovaniensia analecta). Peeters Publishers, Leuven 2003, ISBN 9042913762, p. 563. Regards;--Nephiliskos (talk) 20:01, 7 April 2014 (UTC)

If Hieracleopolis was occupied as long ago as Den, so be it, it doesn't alter my understanding of the universe that drastically! But if that could be mentioned in the article for Hieracleopolis it might help... And regards to all of you for the great work you always do... Til Eulenspiegel /talk/ 21:43, 7 April 2014 (UTC)

King Khaba

Hi. Thanks for the edits. Although, I had to do some minor corrections. Besides: Did you just see? Khaba and Seth-Peribsen are GA candidates. Regards;--Nephiliskos (talk) 11:32, 12 April 2014 (UTC)

This is great news! I am glad you could make the article even better, I am always happy when someone edits an article (excluding vandals of course). I really think these two articles have a good chances at becoming GA. In the mean time, I have made a few edits to the Layer Pyramid. I hope this article may one day also be a GA candidate. (I thanked you on my user page for your work on the layer pyramid!) Iry-Hor (talk) 12:42, 12 April 2014 (UTC)

I also noticed your work on the pyramid and also did some minor corrections. For example, Huni is thought to have built the Meidum pyramid, not the Red pyramid. ;-)) Regards;--Nephiliskos (talk) 13:16, 12 April 2014 (UTC)

Ah! My mistake, it's true thanks! Iry-Hor (talk) 13:21, 12 April 2014 (UTC)

At Easter weekend I'll be alone this year and then I planned to take care of some of the missing and short-left pyramid articles. Regards;--Nephiliskos (talk) 13:25, 12 April 2014 (UTC)

Sounds good, as you can read on my user-page there is plenty to do on this. Iry-Hor (talk) 13:27, 12 April 2014 (UTC)

Zawyet el'Aryan

I expanded it. Hope you enjoy. Regards;--Nephiliskos (talk) 22:30, 13 April 2014 (UTC)

I also just noticed your work on the Unfinished Northern Pyramid of Zawyet el'Aryan! This is really impressive, I hope to complete the article as soon as we are done with the Layer Pyramid. By the way, maybe the layer pyramid article could be GA? what do you think? Iry-Hor (talk) 06:51, 14 April 2014 (UTC)

Not yet. ;-) Wait, until I re-edited the German version and then take a look for inspiration and orientation, ok? ;-) Regards;--Nephiliskos (talk) 09:42, 14 April 2014 (UTC)

Ok! Iry-Hor (talk) 10:04, 14 April 2014 (UTC)

Djedkheperu

Hi, I wanted to thank you for creating an article about a pharaoh that I never heard about. I was doubtful some times ago, when I saw a red link to a king Djedkheperu somewhere, thinking that he was the same as Khendjer (on it.wiki, the pharaoh articles often are named by their horus name to avoid confusion, although almost anybody knows them by that name) but now it seems to me that the name was used by two distinct kings. Khruner (talk) 22:59, 15 April 2014 (UTC)

Well it was Leahy's opinion that the Bed of Osiris belonged to Khendjer, but a block from Khendjer's pyramid establishes that Khendjer's horus name finishes with a i and so could not be Djedkheperew. Furthermore, Djedkheperew's nomen starts with hrw when Khendjer's nomen does not. Ryholt and others, such as Baker, thus conclude that Djedkheperew is distinct from Khendjer. Seal impressions from Nubia then establish that Djedkheperew reigned very close in time with Khabaw (again, not so for Khendjer). Iry-Hor (talk) 07:49, 16 April 2014 (UTC)

Hi! Interesting guy, indeed. But I have a question: Are you sure, that his name contains an "e" right before the "w" ("u") at the very end? That would be rather unusual, normally it should be "Djedkheperw", without "e"... Regards;--Nephiliskos (talk) 08:41, 16 April 2014 (UTC)

Well personally I would prefered to have written Djedkheperu but in the article I follow Ryholt's orthography of the name, hence Djedkheperew. Even Baker writes Djedkheperu, so I am sure why Ryholt chose the ending in "rew". It may be because it is somewhat closer to the original in the sense that the hieroglyphic quail chick "w" is supposed to be consonant, which our "u" is not. Similarly, and to be closer to the original, Ryholt often write "hotpe" rather "hotep" as we know e.g. from the Amarna letters that "hotep" was pronounced something like "hatpa". Iry-Hor (talk) 09:26, 16 April 2014 (UTC)

Neferneferuaten

Hey Iry-Hor, I raised the issue with Dougweller, so I thought I might as well ask you too; do you know if Neferneferuaten’s existence is widely accepted within Egyptology? More importantly, do you know of any sources that would help establish whether it’s a minority viewpoint or a mainstream one? Talk: Neferneferuaten reveals a seemingly unresolved debate about Neferneferuaten’s level of acceptance, and I think it would be good to resolve the issue as Wikipedia has been treating Neferneferuaten's existence as a fact for the past seven years 76.107.171.90 (talk) 16:32, 18 April 2014 (UTC)

Hello! I have responded on Dougweller's talk page. Thanks for raising this question! Iry-Hor (talk) 07:40, 19 April 2014 (UTC)

Re:Neferkare Neby's scarab

Hello, sorry if I reply here but I find it more pratical. About the scarab, I guess Petrie was wrong and the scarab is somehow attributable to the SIP. I uploaded it some times ago, when I still thought Petrie's Scarab was totally reliable. The same applies for a scarab which Petrie attributed to Tereru, and promptly uploaded by me; for that scarab, I have a "partial excuse" since it.wiki actually mention a scarab belonging to Neferkare Tereru, although it does not contain precise sources. Anyway, I saw your recent works on the Menphite FIP kings, and I'm wondering if you have any information about some existing objects - outside the Abydos list - attributable to Neferkare Khendu. --Khruner (talk) 23:18, 19 April 2014 (UTC)

That's alright I prefer to talk here too. So about Neferkare Khendu, Baker points to a single cylinder seal which has been tentatively attributed to him. The seal is inscribed with the cartouche Khendy, Ḫndy

The seal has been published first in 1926 (so that in three years the photos should be in the public domain!) and can be found here:

• Henri Frankfort: Egypt and Syria in the First Intermediate Period in JEA, vol 12 (1926), see p. 92 and fig. 6.

Other than that, Khendu is lost in a lacuna of the Turin canon affecting kings 41 to 50 of the Abydos king list. Following the Abydos King list, von Beckerath, Baker and Ryholt see him as the 6th pharaoh of the 8th dynasty (counting the 7th and 8th as separate, with the 8th starting with Neferkare Pepiseneb). Finally, I only made a few edits because I was encouraged by your impressive edits! You are the first to dare attack the FIP!! Iry-Hor (talk) 08:11, 20 April 2014 (UTC)

Actually I did something on the Herakleopolitans only for personal sympathy :) but in the Memphite FIP I did nothing but cropping some images with a lossless jpeg editor, then uploading the results. But please tell me if you think that the Levantine cylinder of Khondy here, pl. XIX is the same cited above. Khruner (talk) 10:31, 20 April 2014 (UTC)

Yes I can confirm that this seal is the same!! Amazing, so you can upload it and put it in Khendu's article. Iry-Hor (talk) 15:49, 20 April 2014 (UTC)

Well, that's a problem; the cylinder is part of the Petrie collection (UC11616), and checking here you can see that it also was tentatively attributed to Khamudi. Now it seems that the cylinder is indeed SIP rather than FIP and, sadly, the cartouche is filled with random hieroglyphs... The only thing I can do is uploading it anyway, adding its story in the description, but do you think that it could be useful in the article of Neferkare Khendu or in the one of Khamudi? I'm not sure about that... Khruner (talk) 17:38, 20 April 2014 (UTC)

Oh well it seems the identification to Khamudi fits a lot better with the cylinder style than that with Khendu indeed. Furthermore, the article attributing this seal to Khendu dates back to 1926 and things certainly have changed since then in egyptology. I would advise you to upload it and attribute it to Khamudi since the Petrie Museum catalog is a more reliable source than a 1926 article. In the mean time, I will add somehting to Khendu's article stating this cylinder could possibly belong to him although it is attributed to Khamudi by modern scholars. In any case, it's nice because this would illustrate Khamudi's article nicely. Iry-Hor (talk) 18:57, 20 April 2014 (UTC)

Wait a minute, we have a cylinder once attributed to Khondy/Khendu (FIP), then attributed to Khamudi (SIP), but now it is known that it does not technically belong to any king (late MK)... Are you suggesting me to put it in the Khamudi article specifying that it is no longer attributed to him? Khruner (talk) 19:15, 20 April 2014 (UTC)

@Khruner: No but look the "filler hieroglyphs" do read "Khamudi" and are in a cartouche. Isn't it true then that the cartouche inserted on the seal is the name of Khamudi? We could explain that the name of Khamudi was used as a filler on the seal, even though the seal does not explicitely belong to Khamudi. This would not be original research since this is what the Petrie Museum says: " The hieroglyphs in the cartouche have been read Khamudy, name of last Hyksos on Turin Canon kinglist, but they are identifiable as 'space-filler hieroglyphs' ". Or maybe I misunderstand what they mean. I can't imagine that completely random hieroglyphs were chosen and by the greatest of coincidences they happen to be the name of a king in a cartouche. I would find more plausible that the name itself was the filler. Iry-Hor (talk) 19:24, 20 April 2014 (UTC)

Hm, the many uploads from Petrie (and not) made ​​me cautious. It seems unlikely that nobody among who in recent times has dealt with Khamudi have cited this finding, but I will upload anyway the cylinder tomorrow morning, with a description as detailed as possible! Khruner (talk) 19:47, 20 April 2014 (UTC)

Ok sounds good. I have explained a bit on Khendu's page about the seal. Iry-Hor (talk) 19:57, 20 April 2014 (UTC)

Uploaded. I let it put to you, so you can also write the most appropriate caption! (I know it could have been cropped with a better shape, but this would lead to a further loss of the already low image quality) Khruner (talk) 09:30, 21 April 2014 (UTC)

Great, see what I wrote in the article on Neferkare Khendu and the accompanying caption. Iry-Hor (talk) 09:54, 21 April 2014 (UTC)

Looks good. Are you planning to do something similar in the article of Khamudi? Khruner (talk) 10:05, 21 April 2014 (UTC)

Yes but the whole Khamudi article needs to be reworked: it needs a standard infobox, more informations, etc. Iry-Hor (talk) 10:09, 21 April 2014 (UTC)

Boroboroton

Sweet dreams, sweet screams... ;o)) Regards;--Nephiliskos (talk) 16:14, 29 April 2014 (UTC)

Oh no!! I just bought a new futon! Iry-Hor (talk) 22:03, 29 April 2014 (UTC)

Did he already blink? Better check that... ;o) Regards;--Nephiliskos (talk) 22:36, 29 April 2014 (UTC)

About two pharaohs

Hi! I was wondering if you've never heard of these two SIP pharaohs, Usermontu and Khent-khetyemsaf-seneb... I guess the latter could be written in many ways. Khruner (talk) 14:53, 2 May 2014 (UTC)

Yes I know Usermonthu/Wosermonthu and I have seen his unique attestation in a drawing of the temple of Mentuhotep II was Naville. However it appears that Usermonthu is a not a king at all but rather a scribal mistake in the writing of Mentuhotep's name. Beckerath does list him but Ryholt and Baker don't believe his existence. I must say that having seen the relief it is difficult to judge: it could indeed be a mistake in a cartouche of Mentuhotep II (what a blunder!) since the cartouche fits neatly in the overall scene depicting Mentuhotep. However the cartouche is precisely located in an area of the temple where other obscur SIP pharaohs are attested, like Senebmiu. I will write an article. And I have never heard of Khent-khetyemsaf-seneb. Who is this guy? Iry-Hor (talk) 15:00, 2 May 2014 (UTC)

Thanks for the clarifications, I remembered this upload and I noticed that Usermontu was the name of a NK vizier too, although his article is linked to it-wiki and fr.wiki articles about the king instead. For Khent-khetyemsaf-seneb I've found some references citing a SIP broken, sandstone, kneeling statue from Abusir and now in Cairo (CG 408; JE 31879). The statue is mentioned by Borchardt (Statuen und Statuetten, vol. 2) but sadly this work is - for me - untraceable. Khruner (talk) 15:26, 2 May 2014 (UTC)

Hi, Khruner and Iry-Hor. Maybe I can bring a little bit light into it. Borchardt actually mentions an "Chenti-cheti-em-saf, mit 'kleinem Namen' Seneb (German writing form, english would be: Khenty-khety-em-saf, with 'small name' Seneb) and that this guy had a lil' mastaba at Dahshur. But he was no king, but an "great embalmer", "head of the king's treasure house" and "high lector priest" under king Senwosret III. The epitheton Seneb even doesn't really belong to his name, it's some kinda nickname, like in the case of the 3rd dynasty prince Khabawsokar: his nickname was Hety. Regards;--Nephiliskos (talk) 02:29, 3 May 2014 (UTC)

Thanks Nephiliskos; so, do you have access to all Borchardt's Statuen? I found his name in an italian work, under the kings of the SIP, but this is not the first time that this work proves unreliable :( I was indeed a bit suspectful about the sandstone; I thought that, with certain exceptions, a royal figure prefer granitoids, especially considering it is a small(?) statue... However, it seems that this character was still high-ranking. I thank you both! Khruner (talk) 09:06, 3 May 2014 (UTC)

Hi, Khruner. Unfortunately, I do not have the complete book from Borchardt, I got only a scan of the text about the statue from a buddy... :-/ Regards;--Nephiliskos (talk) 09:59, 3 May 2014 (UTC)

Possibly unfree File:1900 photography of Gustave Jequier.jpg

A file that you uploaded or altered, File:1900 photography of Gustave Jequier.jpg, has been listed at Wikipedia:Possibly unfree files because its copyright status is unclear or disputed. If the file's copyright status cannot be verified, it may be deleted. You may find more information on the file description page. You are welcome to add comments to its entry at the discussion if you object to the listing for any reason. Thank you. Stefan2 (talk) 13:23, 23 May 2014 (UTC)

Apis burials

Hi, how do you do? I'm planning to create an article named "List of Apis burials" or something similar, loosely based on the structure of the List of pharaohs article (a wikitable for each dynasty with enthroning/death dates, images etc.). I have gathered sources since Amenhotep III until Dareios I (although burials continued until the christian period: hopefully someone in the future could expand the list). Do you think is a good idea, or maybe it's better just to put a simple, plain list of burials in the already existing Apis article? Khruner (talk) 10:10, 7 June 2014 (UTC)

I think it is a great idea! Do you mean to create a list with the dates of the burials, pharaoh at the time of the burial and an illustration when available (pic. of the sarcophagus for example)? I can only encourage you! I have barely any time for the moment to spend on wikipedia but I hope to get back to it soon. I am really missing editing stuffs! Iry-Hor (talk) 10:41, 7 June 2014 (UTC)

Yes, I mean something like you said! Well, I have relative datations (i.e. "Year 16 of Ramesses II") but if one day someone will find some absolute datations, these will be welcome. I figured this is a busy period for you... In any case, I hope you can come back soon! Khruner (talk) 11:14, 7 June 2014 (UTC)

@Khruner I think relative dates are very good for such a list. I suppose that it is unlikely that we can arrive at an absolute date that most Egyptologists would agree on. How many Apis burials do you have? I have no idea how often that took place (i.e. how long typically lived the Apis bull)? Iry-Hor (talk) 07:13, 8 June 2014 (UTC)

I have around 28 burials for now. As I can see, I have death ages from around 16 to around 26, the former should be considered somwehat premature while the latter is exceptional, but often there were little discrepancies since an Apis normally wasn't enthroned as a little calf in its birth day. I think the only absolute dates obtainable are those starting to the Late Period. For example, a burial occurred in Year 20 of Psamtik I: nowadays all Egyptologist agrees that Psamtik I was enthroned in 664 BCE (=his Year 1) and therefore the burial should have took place in 645(±1) BCE. Khruner (talk) 10:06, 8 June 2014 (UTC)

Ok so maybe the list should include both relative dates and absolute dates (when known). Iry-Hor (talk) 10:11, 8 June 2014 (UTC)

Coronation of the pharaoh‎

Hi. I found some interesting essay written by Sue D'Auria and Rainer Stadelmann. It's now in the section "Throne rights". Regards;--Nephiliskos (talk) 10:22, 8 June 2014 (UTC)

Hello! Yes I have seen. The page is good and would just need a little bit of English editing. I find the page very interesting and the topic quite unusual. However, I noticed that very very few wikipedia articles are actually linking to it. This makes the page very difficult to reach and as a consequence, the page is seen only about 10 times a day, which is close to the bot noise limit (meaning few humans do reach the page). We need to better link the page from other articles. I have tried this yesterday but really don't have much time these days to edit. Any idea of articles where we could add a wikilink to this page? Iry-Hor (talk) 07:29, 9 June 2014 (UTC)

Hi. Ok, I will rush through our pharaoh-articles and look where some links would do the trick. And of course I would be happy, if anyone would check my English. Regards;--Nephiliskos (talk) 10:33, 9 June 2014 (UTC)

GA-Nomination for Peribsen

Hi! You never gonna believe this, but besaid article is currently reviewed by an competent author and has a very good chance to pass! The author left some notes on the article's discussion page and I'm already working on it. Unfortunately, my English is not good enough to fully understand some of his arguments n' questions. Could you pleeaase help me? It would be our very first early Egyptian ruler with a star! Regards;--Nephiliskos (talk) 22:04, 24 June 2014 (UTC)

Woaw great news! I will take a quick look at the comments. Congratulations!Iry-Hor (talk) 06:47, 25 June 2014 (UTC)

It seems like the lead needs rewriting. I remember having this problem with the Pyramid of Userkaf. The lead needs to have one paragraph per section of the article. Each paragraph should summarise the section in question and the overall lead should be kept relatively short. The rest can be fixed: the editor wrote precisely the places where he wants references added. If there is a sentence for which he asked a reference and you don't find it, simply remove the sentence. His last point is the formatting of the beginning of the lead which is also easy to fix. So in the end the only difficult task is to write the lead according to the MOS. Iry-Hor (talk) 06:59, 25 June 2014 (UTC)

@Iry-Hor: Yo! Today I'm gonna expand the article's entrance, no problem! About the missing sources: It would help alot, if the questioned passages were marked, so I could find and ref them. Regards;--Nephiliskos (talk) 11:27, 25 June 2014 (UTC)

Meanwhile, I have expanded the article's entrance. Regards;--Nephiliskos (talk) 12:35, 25 June 2014 (UTC)

But the editor who made the review precisely said which passages are missing references. Meanwhile I corrected the English of the introduction. Iry-Hor (talk) 08:16, 26 June 2014 (UTC)

CONGRATULATIONS! The editor said the article is good to go, PERIBSEN WILL BE GA! Iry-Hor (talk) 08:22, 26 June 2014 (UTC)

It got its greenie!!!! AWESOME!!!! Regards;--Nephiliskos (talk) 16:46, 26 June 2014 (UTC)

Wanna...

...join here? Could be interesting and important to you, either. Regards;--Nephiliskos (talk) 09:10, 28 June 2014 (UTC)

Nefer-Setekh

A new priest! ;) --Nephiliskos (talk) 16:56, 10 July 2014 (UTC)

Nice! I just saw your post. Iry-Hor (talk) 06:50, 5 August 2014 (UTC)

Khaba

Thanks for your congratulations. But it was also a work of yours, too. ;) Your help always leads to the fruits we enjoy now. Regards;--Nephiliskos (talk) 00:50, 5 August 2014 (UTC)

Thank you but your are the main editor and I always read your article with great pleasure! Iry-Hor (talk) 06:50, 5 August 2014 (UTC)

Some problems with Egyptologists

Hi! Coincindently, I have read your discussion with Kruner. And I have read your statements about Margaret Bunson. You see, this is what I harshly critisize about Egyptologists today: They often only copy what older main sources pretend, without checking the contemporary sources.

• The Narmer-Problem: It makes me often really furious, that Hor-Narmer is excluded from modern king lists as the first ruler of 1st dynasty. I really don't understand it. All contemporary kinglists, such as the Merneith-seals and the Qa'a-seals, start their lists with Hor-Narmer, so he was recognized and accepted as the first ruler of an new dynasty (which we call the first dynasty). So, what the f*ck could lead any egyptologist to the riddiculous conclusion that Narmer did NOT belong to the first dynasty??? What's more: seal impressions even SHOW THE FIRST FIVE KING'S BIRTH NAMES!!! On several Narmer-seals it reads Mnj (Gardinder signs Y5 + N35) beside the serekh; on several Aha-seals it reads Ttj (X1 x2) inside the serekh(!!!); on several Djer-seals it reads Itj (M17 + X1) beneath the royal serekh, together with figurines of a sitting king; on severeal Djet-seals it reads also Itj, but written different: M17 + U33. With other words, the royal clay seals already expose the king's birth names! The coronation of it all: The first four cartouches of the Abydos king list and the Royal Canon of Turin perfectly fit: Mnj became Menj, extended by M17; Ttj became also extended by M17; the first Itj was extended by U33, but only to give its correct spelling; the second Itj was completely re-written in attempt to avoid a confusion with the former Itj. Even the number of birth names fit!

• The Peribsen-Problem: Is, in my opinion, also an pretty funny one. There is no contemporary source that would definitivley connect both names.

• The Sanakht-Problem: It isn't Bunson alone, who still places Sanakht onto the beginning of the 3rd dynasty. In my opinion, it is because egyptologists identify Sanakht with the cartouche name Nebka. But there is something wrong: Sanakht did NOT bury Khasekhemuj, it was Djoser. No space for Sanakht. ;) But as good as all king lists place Nebka before Djoser. I just can't imagine that all these kinglists were wrong with Nebka's position. In my opinion there is only one explanation: Nebka is Khasekhemuj! --Nephiliskos (talk) 09:42, 9 August 2014 (UTC)

Well I don't know about real egyptologists but people like Bunson, who may be simply writing popular books, are certainly laging far behind in terms of hypotheses and knowledge. Like you, it makes me a be mad to see Narmer systematically excluded from the 1st dynasty in certain publication when this is clearly unsustainable since the discovery of the kings lists you mention. About Peribsen, well it remains an hypothesis and we can at least give her the benefit of the doubt, although she should have been more prudent and perhaps signal the uncertainty to the reader. Finally, the Nebka/Sanakht problem is fascinating. I am of this opinion that it is simply an error on behalf of the scribes of the Turin canon. Iry-Hor (talk) 12:55, 9 August 2014 (UTC)

Just take a look into my Workshop1... ;) I have updated it a lot. Regards;--Nephiliskos (talk) 14:36, 9 August 2014 (UTC)

That clarifies a lot of things! I have several questions though: 1) so what about this inscription which links Hor-Aha with thw word Mn (see here). Not that I believe Hor-Aha to be Menes (clearly this is Narmer) but I don't understand how Hor-Aha ends up being associated with Mn. 2) I thought Qahedjet never existed and his stela was either a fake or a later work in archaic style. What do you think? Iry-Hor (talk) 14:48, 9 August 2014 (UTC)

In newest literature it is passionetly disputed, what the Aha-label tries to tell: Ludwig David Morenz and Wolfgang Helck for example, point out that the three-arched building might be a tomb rather than a shrine, since shrines normally were seldomly depicted. If so, it was an buildung very similar to an royal palace, with the deity's crest in it. Or it was a house with dome atop, the deity aside. If the three-arched building is indeed a tomb (what I am totally convinced of!), the Aha-label depicts the burial of Narmer, here named Men-Nebty.

The second possibility is, that the label shows the visitation of Aha at the northern shrine of the Two Ladies, as Helck suggests. Regards;--Nephiliskos (talk) 15:04, 9 August 2014 (UTC)

Horus-Min

I'd write something like "the syncretized god Horus-Min". Because Horus-Min was a fairly common combination, the articles on Horus and Min would ideally describe the link between the two gods, but unfortunately they don't right now. A. Parrot (talk) 20:23, 10 August 2014 (UTC)

Alright thanks for the quick response! I jus updated Neferkauhor's article as you advocated. Iry-Hor (talk) 20:49, 10 August 2014 (UTC)

Thanks

Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Franck Gordon. Dougweller (talk) 18:47, 13 August 2014 (UTC)

Sedjes

Look. Quite interesting, huh? Regards;--Nephiliskos (talk) 22:29, 14 August 2014 (UTC)

Easy! Sedjes = Sanakht. Everything fits. Iry-Hor (talk) 05:42, 15 August 2014 (UTC)

Uuh, interesting. How comes? Regards;--Nephiliskos (talk) 08:08, 15 August 2014 (UTC)

Well according to archeological evidence, Sanakht definitely existed, and ruled in the middle of the 3rd dynasty, in any case after Djoser (who succeeded Khasekhemwy) and Sekhemket (who succeeded Djoser according to findings in his pyramid complex showing that Imhotep participated in its beginning). Now the Abydos king list records a king after Sekhemket whose name is lost, and a similar problem seemed to have affected Sanakht in the Turin Canon since he is simply missing (the position of Nebka being most likely an artefact, being misplaced and given a reign length identical to that of Djoser). This indicates that some of the old records of the reign of Sanakht suffered from damage long before these two New Kingdom lists where established from them. The royal table at Saqqara may have been established from different documents since it mentions a Nebkarâ after Sekhemket (this looks like Nebka!), again where Sanakht would best fit. So Sedjes = Sanakht and the 3rd dynasty is Djoser -> Sekhemket -> Sanakht-> Khaba->Huni. As far as I can tell there is no uncontested evidence for any other kings in this dynasty. Iry-Hor (talk) 08:17, 15 August 2014 (UTC)

In my opinion the 3rd dynasty problem is much more complex: There are four horus names (Netjerikhet, Sekhemkhet, Sanakht and Khaba), three kinglists with each five cartouche names that differ greatly from each other in their name spelling, last not least we got three pyramids. Hm! Whom should we believe? If the archaeological record is complete (which I so totally doubt, though), three kings could each be connected to one pyramid: Netjerikhet → Djoser-Pyramid; Sekhemkhet → Buried Pyramid; Khaba → Layer Pyramid(?). But what about Sanakht and Huni??? I can hardly imagine, that any king of 3rd dynasty was still buried inside a mastaba, especially if one respects the length of reign of each king: Netjerikhet → 28 years; Sekhemkhet → 9 - 14 years; Khaba → 8 - 12 years; Sanacht → 18 years; Huni → 24 years. Each length of reign would have been enough to build a pyramid.

A difference would be, if there were five horus names (Huni included, see my Workshop reconstructions). In this case, the number of archaeological horus names would perfectly correspond with later cartouche names. And yet: Who was who? The problem comes with the name differences in ramesside kinglists. Where the f*ck did the compilers get the names from??? Except for Huni and Nebka, NONE of the cartouche names can be definitively connected to contemporary documents!--Nephiliskos (talk) 10:25, 15 August 2014 (UTC)

It's true that the problem isn't simple, but it would not be surprising if a 3rd dynasty ruler failed to have its pyramid completed past the very first foundations. I don't believe Sanakht reigned for 18years. The very small number of contemporary attestations points to a very short reign, which would not have left much time for a pyramid to advance beyond the most basic steps of its construction. It is quite possible that Huni built a pyramid later finished/expanded by Snefru and therefore only Sanakht's tomb is missing. But he is also the least attested king and would certainly have reigned for a very short time and hence possibly was buried in a mastaba or in a subsidiary tomb close to the pyramid of one of its predecessor. There is also the possibility that whatever he constructed is still undiscovered. After all some pyramid disappeared in the sand even after being discovered once (Menkauhor) while others are known to exist but nobody knows where (Pyramid of Merikare). It's clear to me that some of the official records of the 3rd dynasty suffered damages that made the job of the New Kingdom scribes difficult. The number is correct though since Djoser, Sekhemket, Sanakht, Khaba , Huni adds up to 5 people just like on the lists. Then its hard to tell where and how they got their names from. The same problem affects Manetho who gives names that are sometimes very hard to associate to real people. Iry-Hor (talk) 13:16, 15 August 2014 (UTC)

Heehee...^^ Just see my workshop list... there you can see my try to connect the manethonian list with contemporary documents. Not easy, that stuff.^^

About Huni. If you read my list, you will surely be surprised about my idea, that Hu-nesu might be an horus name. What do you think was my inspiration? ;D Regards;--Nephiliskos (talk) 15:38, 15 August 2014 (UTC)

Have you ever seen Hw-nsw written in a serekh or at least close to a falcon bird? Also what would be Huni's nomen and prenomen then? Iry-Hor (talk) 16:05, 15 August 2014 (UTC)

It's easy: the definitively earliest writings of Huni appear at the very end of 3rd dynasty. The first can be found in the tomb of Metjen, an servant of Huni and Snefru. Huni's name is written without a serekh, yes... but also without a cartouche and without a nisut-bitj crest. It's written inside a house/domain. Helck, Morenz and Tiradritti point out, that it was common during the early and old kingdom to write only serekh- or nisut-bitj names into a royal domain. Perfect examples are: Narmer, Djet, Den, Semerkhet, Hotepsekhemuj, Peribsen and Netjerikhet. When a birth name was written, it was introduced even inside the house with the nisut-bitj-crest (best examples: Den [Nisut-bitj-Khasty] and Hotepsekhemuj [Nisut-bitj Hotep]).

So far, so good. But! There's one problem! During Early and Old Kingdom it was also common to use the same nisut-bitj name as for the serekh name. Best examples: Qa'a (Hor-Qa'a → Nisut-bitj Qa'a), Hotepsekhemuj (Hor-Hetepsekhemuj → Nisut-bitj Hotep), Peribsen (Seth-Peribsen → Nisut-bitj Peribsen) and Netjerikhet (Hor-Netjerikhet → Nisut-bitj Netjerikhet[nebu]). You might wonder now: What's yer point? Well, why don't you try to think in a reverse way? ;D

At Abusir, a bowl was found with the inscription Nisut-bitj Hu-nisut. There is -in my opinion- no other really contemporary birth name of king Huni. What if the fashion of using the horus name as a nisut-bitj name was still popular under Huni? Reverse logic: Nisut-bitj Huni → Hor-Huni. To strengthen my view let me point to the unusual case of Peribsen. His SEREKH-NAME(!) was simply put into a cartouche, despite he surely had an seperate nebty- or ring name. The same goes for Netjerikhet, whose serekh name was also put into a cartouche. And even Schepseskaf did the same (his cartouche name was merely a lil' bit elongated by the ending Ka-ef). So why not with Huni's name, too? Regards;--Nephiliskos (talk) 16:29, 15 August 2014 (UTC)

Wow that's a good argument, I can believe it! Okay so accepting that Hw-nsw is Huni's Horus name as well, that leaves Qahedjet a fake or a representation of Thutmosis III in 3rd dynasty style. So again there is no unaccounted for king of the 3rd dynasty and Sanakht can only be before or after Khaba. I don't remember what are the arguments for Khaba->Huni but if this is established, Sanakht must absolutely be between Sekhemket and Khaba, hence being Sedjes. Iry-Hor (talk) 19:40, 15 August 2014 (UTC)

• About Qahedjet: It might be a) a fake (which is my greatest sorrow, because of stylistic contradictions on his stela), b) some kind of nickname for Thutmosis III. (which I doubt, though), or c) the horus name of king Bikheris, or d) the horus name of one of the blitz-rulers of the first intermediate period. What makes me really pissy, is the fact, how fast and naively Egyptologists took Qahedjet for the horus name of Huni. In my opinion it happened only because Egyptologists graved for a horus name for Huni, since Huni was the only king of old kingdom known by a cartouche name only. That's pretty unprofessional, if you ask me...

• About Sedjes: Despite the word sedjes has it's own meaning, I quite wonder what the source for the used hieroglyphs was. I got an interesting theory: what, if the word sedjes was made of the word djeser? Just look at the ivory label of king Sekhemkhet. Under the nebty-crest we see the determinative for djeser, a pair of arms holding an golden frond (in later times it was only one arm). But under this determinative, we also see the spelling symbols: a jumping snake (dj), a sign for folded fabric (s) and a mouth (r). Let's take the snake and the fabric and we got the two last signs for sedjes. The door locker symbol (also s) as the first sign in cartouche No. 18 might have come from the mouth sign (in hieratic writings often queezed to a thick stroke). Voilá! Regards; --Nephiliskos (talk) 10:05, 16 August 2014 (UTC)

Article Raneb

I have donated a new section to this article. How odd, that it never had an section about the findings! Regards;--Nephiliskos (talk) 12:10, 19 August 2014 (UTC)

Gosh you are right I know this article very well as I read it many times concerning their major discovery about Iry-Hor. Thanks for updating Raneb with this info! Iry-Hor (talk) 14:14, 19 August 2014 (UTC)

This great infos from Tallet and Leisnay have found their way into the German versions, too. ;) A friend of mine translated the essay for me and these rock inscriptions are fascinating. It looks like the Iry-Hor inscription is the first to show the city name of Memphis. Hmmmm, shall I draw it? Regards;--Nephiliskos (talk) 15:50, 19 August 2014 (UTC)

That would be more than awesome!!!! Also they saiy that somewhere on the right of Iry Hor's inscription is an empty serekh, which they believe is to be attributed to Iry-Hor while the tradition of putting the name inside the serekh is an invention of Ka. But I cannot see this empty serekh on the photography on the inscription. Can you?

Also looking at Bunson's Encylopedia of Ancient Egypt, I wanted to share with you what she says about Raneb. I put in bold font the surprising bits:

"Re’neb (Kakau, Nubnefer) (d. 2649 B.C.E.) Second ruler of the Second Dynasty. He was the successor of HOTEPSEKHEMWY, the founder of the line, who ruled from 2700 B.C.E. until his death. He is called Kakau or Nubnefer in some king lists and is denoted as Kaichan by MANETHO. His name meant “Ré Is the Lord,” and he may have been a usurper. His seals were in SAQQARA and on a TRADE route near ERMENT. Re’neb is given credit for aiding the APIS bull cult in MEMPHIS and the MNEVIS cult at HELIOPOLIS. He is also credited with introducing the sacred ram cult of MENDES. His SEREKH was discovered on a granite stela in ABYDOS. His tomb is believed to have been situated under the causeway of UNIS’s funerary complex in SAQQARA."

See !? I don't like Bunson! Iry-Hor (talk) 19:14, 19 August 2014 (UTC)

What the fuck... Is that lady serious!? Oh yeah, let's see:

• "Hotepsekhemwy [...] who ruled from 2.700 BC"... ummm, nope. It was much earlier.
• "Hotepsekhemwy [...] who ruled [...] until his death"... no shit, Sherlock! However, it is unknown, if early kings actually ruled until their death. The Turin Canon gives hints that kings left their throne before their death.
• "Kaichan": Ummm, it's actually Kaiechós (or Cechous), from Kakau...
• Erment (Armant) is located in Saqqara...??? Ookaayy...
• "Apis bull in Memphis"... actually, Apis had several cultic places and Manetho says nothing about any cultic place or which Apis bull was meant...
• "Mnevis cult in Heliopolis"... ummm, no one knows for sure, where this god had his cultic center...
• "the sacred ram cult of Mendes"... I'd say she refers to the god Banebdjedet, who was actually worshipped in Mendes...
• "a stela from Abydos"... nope, it was found at Saqqara.
• "Unas [...] at Saqqara" is quite correct, but the ownership of the gallery tomb is hot disputed.

That lady is too dumb to consult modern literature and cite it correctly, I'd say... Regards;--Nephiliskos (talk) 09:28, 20 August 2014 (UTC)

The worst to me is that she equates Raneb with Nubnefer like it was obvious and does not mention that this is only an hypothesis. Iry-Hor (talk) 09:39, 20 August 2014 (UTC)

Ah, that's not the worst to me. She writes: He is called Kakau or Nubnefer in some king lists... Ummm, Kakau is correct, but Nubnefer? This name appears in NO king list, only twice on two stone shards... O-M-G... --Nephiliskos (talk) 09:45, 20 August 2014 (UTC)

About the Handbuch

Hi, I have seen and appreciated your recent edits on the 16th Dynasty, but I have some concern about the status given to von Beckerath's Handbuch: for some reason I don't think that it really is freely-available; I rather think that someone scanned and uploaded it on Mediafire without any permission. If this is the case, obviously is uploader's fault but I don't think that is a good idea to link the page on a wiki... --Khruner (talk) 17:14, 24 August 2014 (UTC)

Ok should I remove the link from the article or simply remove the comment saying that "it is freely available"? Because I cannot use Helck's ordering of the kings since I don't have access to his paper and furthemore it is older than von Beckerath's. Iry-Hor (talk) 17:45, 24 August 2014 (UTC)

I think both the things should be removed, obviously not the bibliographic ref for von Beckerath but just the weblink within. Just for taking, for the other links I don't see any problem as these refers to PD works (Legrain) or Google Books legal excerpts. PS, nice diagram-map by you! Khruner (talk) 18:06, 24 August 2014 (UTC)

Actually I took the map from the spanish wiki, translated everything in English and only modified a few other minor things. See the maps in the article on the Abydos Dynasty and the 14th Dynasty for maps I did entirely from scratch. Iry-Hor (talk) 19:02, 24 August 2014 (UTC)

Request

Say, would you do me a big favour? A have drawn a special hieroglyph for "dwarf", it's an png-file. I totally fail to upload it on Commons, so it would be usable in every Wiki? I would send it to you via mail. Regards;--Nephiliskos (talk) 09:28, 25 August 2014 (UTC)

Sure that's nothing, send it to me I will upload it immediately! Iry-Hor (talk) 10:27, 25 August 2014 (UTC)

Ummm... would you send me an email first? Your "send this user an email" somehow has gone missing... Regards;--Nephiliskos (talk) 11:00, 25 August 2014 (UTC)

Nephiliskos:Sure what's your email? Iry-Hor (talk) 09:09, 26 August 2014 (UTC)

Iry-Hor:_{[email protected]}--Nephiliskos (talk) 09:11, 26 August 2014 (UTC)

Iry-Hor: I have sent you several files with special hieroglyphs, hope you like them. Regards;--Nephiliskos (talk) 11:58, 26 August 2014 (UTC)

Unfinished Northern Pyramid of Zawyet el'Aryan

Hi. I just saw that you stil list it under "in progress", but the work is done. Regards;--Nephiliskos (talk) 18:48, 26 August 2014 (UTC)

Wow thanks yes I did not see the article since a looonnng time. It is quite nice now! Iry-Hor (talk) 18:52, 26 August 2014 (UTC)

I did some English correction for the article. Iry-Hor (talk) 20:10, 26 August 2014 (UTC)

Thanks. Besides: did you get my email with the hieroglyphs? Regards;--Nephiliskos (talk) 21:18, 26 August 2014 (UTC)

Nephiliskos: Yup! here they are: dwarf, crown, skorpion, stuff I have NO idea what it is. Iry-Hor (talk) 06:49, 27 August 2014 (UTC)

Yayyy!!^^ Awesome! Aah, the last hieroglyph is an sun umbrella. It's an extremely rare hieroglyph, appearing most time in pre- and early dynastic times. It's part of the title he/she who's under the king's umbrella or (attested only once!) he/she who carries the king's umbrella. In earlier times it was thought by scholars that the umbrella-glyph depicts some sort of double blade axe, but a) this kinda weapon were never used in Egypt and b) it would be a f*cking creepy title: he/she who's under the blades of the king... :-D Regards;--Nephiliskos (talk) 09:36, 27 August 2014 (UTC)

Yeeess! That makes sense, a person so close to the king as to be under the same umbrella as him ( I can imagine that in the Egyptian sun, the king would have slaves / lowly people holding an umbrella for him. Iry-Hor (talk) 09:49, 27 August 2014 (UTC)

Ummm, Egyptologists such as Helck, Wilkinson and Morenz admonish us to not call any servant of the royal court as "slaves". In fact, the Egyptians didn't even have a term for "slave", to have and use real slaves was common from Middle Kingdom onwards. I get always pissy when people stereotypically claim for example that the pyramids were built by slaves. They were built by professionals. The Egyptologists also point out that NO low ranked person was allowed to hold the umbrella and the vans of the king. Regards;--Nephiliskos (talk) 10:35, 27 August 2014 (UTC)

One question: your edit with Maspero's quotes is indeed fascinating, but what is the source? Regards;--Nephiliskos (talk) 21:48, 27 August 2014 (UTC)

You are right I had forgotten to add the reference. Here it is: Alexandre Barsanti, Gaston Maspero: Fouilles de Zaouiét el-Aryân (1904-1905), Annales du service des antiquités de l'Égypte (ASAE) 7 (1906), pp. 257–286, available online copyright-free. There is plenty more informations about the excavations in it, in particular all of Barsanti's drawing of the inscriptions and king names he found are available c. p. 280. I will upload a few very soon and the article will shine with tons of pics. Iry-Hor (talk) 07:04, 28 August 2014 (UTC)

If you do, please copy them in black and white, ok? Just for better look. Regards;--Nephiliskos (talk) 10:33, 28 August 2014 (UTC)

Nope I will upload them in the color that they have in the original document. I have no other way of doing. Iry-Hor (talk) 12:16, 28 August 2014 (UTC)

'Apepi

Hi Iry-Hor, I've just met another Apepi and I'm quite shocked since I did not know of his existence. As a strong supporter of pharaoh Apophis as an unique figure who changed his praenomen twice, I am relieved seeing that your new ruler here is neither Nubkhepeshre nor Aawoserre nor Aaqenenre, and now I'm also pleased to know more about him. Thanks! Khruner (talk) 20:51, 25 August 2014 (UTC)

Khruner: Well this 'Apepi is definitely obscur and I did not know about him until I realised there were 3 kings named "Apepi" in von Beckerath Handbush. The first is "Nubkhepeshre", which von Beckerath sees as a distinct person from Apophis and I don't understand why von Beckerath believe this. Could you perhaps explain what were the arguments for equating Nubkhepeshre with Apophis? The second is this 'Apepi, and the 3rd of course is Apophis. Now Ryholt and Baker belive Nubkhepeshre = Apophis and 'Apepi is distinct, being placed in the 14th Dynasty. Also the predecessor of 'Apepi on the turin canon is 'A[...] maybe he was yet another Apophis. By the way if you find a picture of any of the 5 scarabs of the "King's son Apophis" that Ryholt is referring to, it would be great to illustrate 'Apepi's article. Iry-Hor (talk) 06:51, 26 August 2014 (UTC)

I believed that this scarab belonged to Apophis's son but now it looks like it could be one of the five scarabs mentioned here; maybe Apophis' son and 'Apepi are the same person indeed (although this statement seems uncompatible with the Turin canon which placed many other kings after him). About the "trinity", I have to say that other Egyptologists support the distinct identity of Apophis (Grimal, Gardiner, Hayes). At least von Beckerath admit that Aawoserre and Aaqenenre were the same person. many other scholars (Habachi, Ryholt, Schneider, Schlogl and possibly Wilkinson and Bietak) accept the trinity. Perhaps a pharaoh who surely changed his praenomen once is more susceptible to change it again, and the topic of the three praenomen is always centered on the force/strenght/power of Ra. I personally believe that Nebkhepeshre was his last praenomen adopted prior of his death but it is only a thought of mine. Khruner (talk) 08:39, 26 August 2014 (UTC)

So the scarab indeed reads "King's son Apophis", I will check in Ryholt's book if I can find the sources of his scarabs and confirm that this is one of them. What I don't understand though is why you say that this scarab is referring to a son of Apophis? As far as I can tell "Apophis" here is the name of the son, not that of the father. Iry-Hor (talk) 08:50, 26 August 2014 (UTC)

Petrie attributed it to "Prince Apepi", and Apophis had a son who is generally called in this way to distinguish him from his father. In some sources (unfortunately I forgot which) I read that this prince is attested by some seals. Khruner (talk) 09:09, 26 August 2014 (UTC)

Khruner Ryholt says that only a single seal of prince of 15th Dynasty is known so I guess this seal is likely to be one of 'Apepi. Iry-Hor (talk) 14:13, 30 August 2014 (UTC)

Yes, I guess so too... Khruner (talk) 17:52, 30 August 2014 (UTC)

13th Dynasty Saqqara pyramid

Hi. While I was having some fun gathering infos about the Northern Mazghuna pyramid I have learned of a pyramid in Saqqara, near to Khendjer's pyramid and likely coeval (13th Dynasty), but considerably bigger and whose owner is unfortunately not determinable. Do you know something more about it? Khruner (talk) 10:51, 30 August 2014 (UTC)

I have heard about it, I have read that it was once tentatively assigned to Imyremeshaw but this is conjectural and contested. I don't know anything more on the pyramid. I have been curious since some time about it but I don't even know its name. Ryhotl reports that "a date "regnal year 5, 3rd month of Shemu, 18th day" is known from the unfinished pyramid complex neighboring that of Khendjer" to conclude that this may have been built by Imyremeshaw or his successor. Iry-Hor (talk) 11:14, 30 August 2014 (UTC)

Probably is this one, seems that it does not have a proper name. Maybe it is the most intricate pyramid hypogeum I have ever seen. Khruner (talk) 11:38, 30 August 2014 (UTC)

It could fit the description indeed. I guess there aren't so many 13th Dynasty pyramids neighboring that of Khendjer. Well spotted! I will upload a few images of the South Maghzuna Pyramid on commons, then look for images of this one. By the way, the Coptos Decrees/Shemay DYK will be up on the main page on 31 August at 14:00 Italian time. Iry-Hor (talk) 11:55, 30 August 2014 (UTC)

Khruner Things are a bit more complicated apparently. In this article the authors reports at least one more 13th Dynasty pyramid in the vicinity of that of Khendjer and the unfinished one we were talking about. Iry-Hor (talk) 12:42, 30 August 2014 (UTC)

Yes, many 13th Dynasty pyramids lies between Saqqara south and Dahshur north. The one pointed out by me is possibly the largest; another smaller pyramid is next to (and smaller than) Khendjer's one. I think these most likely are Lepsius 46 and Lepsius 45 respectively (Khendjer is 44). Just look in the pyramid template in de.wiki at the bottom of this article: they count at least 13 - royal and non-royal - pyramids belonging of the 13th Dynasty. EDIT: thanks for the DYK advice! Khruner (talk) 17:54, 30 August 2014 (UTC)

Wow it looks like the English wiki is really laging behind the German one on pyramids. There are so many more articles than on this wiki concerning pyramid. We are even lacking articles on large pyramids, such as that of Pepi II... Iry-Hor (talk) 21:29, 30 August 2014 (UTC)

You made ​​a point here, I was thinking about this today. I regret the fact that I care more about almost unknown pyramids of the SIP compared to other older, more relevant and in more need to exist on en.wiki such as Pepi II or Nyuserre but it's stronger than me, I failed to nourish a real interest in this period :/ Khruner (talk) 23:10, 30 August 2014 (UTC)

Khruner no worries I completely understand and am living the same thing with respect to pharaohs. I am hopelessly drawn to obscur rulers and spend a lot of time writing articles on kings attested by one scarab-seal while in the same time, many articles on well known pharaohs are of really poor quality. But well known and obscur pyramids and pharaohs are all required on a true encyclopedia and that's one of the things that make Wikipedia unique. Everything should be here. And when it comes to pyramids it hardly gets more obscur than the 13th Dynasty ones. Iry-Hor (talk) 07:36, 31 August 2014 (UTC)

DYK for Coptos Decrees

Cas Liber (talk · contribs) 12:04, 31 August 2014 (UTC)