Template:Did you know nominations/Rock Diver

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The following is an archived discussion of the DYK nomination of the article below. Please do not modify this page. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as this nomination's talk page, the article's talk page or Wikipedia talk:Did you know), unless there is consensus to re-open the discussion at this page. No further edits should be made to this page.

The result was: promoted by Cielquiparle (talk) 20:44, 2 September 2023 (UTC)

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Rock Diver

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Created by Piotrus (talk). Self-nominated at 13:29, 3 July 2023 (UTC). Post-promotion hook changes for this nom will be logged at Template talk:Did you know nominations/Rock Diver; consider watching this nomination, if it is successful, until the hook appears on the Main Page.

General: Article is new enough and long enough
Policy: Article is sourced, neutral, and free of copyright problems

Hook eligibility:

QPQ: Done.

Overall: @Piotrus: Good article. However, the source cited doesn't explicitly state that it was one of the first, which I feel is an issue. Onegreatjoke (talk) 22:28, 5 July 2023 (UTC)

Onegreatjoke, I think this is strongly implied in this source. by virtue of being listed early in the chronology of stories. This is also implied in a number of other works cited, perhaps most clearly by Budrys (see his quote in the article) and Stableford (whom I've just added). I generally agree we have to be very carefull when it cames to claims of being "the first" or such, but "one of the first" is much more fuzzy and I think quite fair here. --Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus| reply here 06:19, 6 July 2023 (UTC)
@Piotrus: Yeah it implies that but I'd rather it be an outright confirmation of it. So i'm not exactly comfortable with that. Onegreatjoke (talk) 20:50, 7 July 2023 (UTC)

Onegreatjoke, Hmmm, I'll ping User:TompaDompa who has a lot of experience in this topic area and is pretty good at analyzing the sourcing for wording and keeping me in check if I reach too far. I'll also propose an ALT1 below. --Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus| reply here 03:07, 8 July 2023 (UTC)

ALT1a: that several science fiction critics described "Rock Diver", the first short story of American writer Harry Harrison, as "landmark" and "notable", due to its compelling take on technology for passing through matter? Source: Budrys, Pournelle, Jęczmyk and Stableford
ALT1b (shorter): ... that several science fiction critics praised "Rock Diver", the first short story of American writer Harry Harrison, due to its compelling take on technology for passing through matter? Source: Budrys, Pournelle, Jęczmyk and Stableford

Comment from TompaDompa I was pinged. The entry in The Encyclopedia of Science Fiction is a relatively thin one when it comes to chronological information (it doesn't mention anything past the 1970s, for instance). In some other instance I might have been comfortable using it to say "an early example" if not "one of the first", but even that seems like going too far when Harrison himself calls the concept "a tried and true sf device". To be sure, I took a look at E. F. Bleiler's Science-Fiction: The Gernsback Years to see what it said about Murray Leinster's 1934 short story "The Mole Pirate" (also mentioned in The Encyclopedia of Science Fiction). Looking at the "Motif and Theme Index", the story (indicated by the number 852) is listed alongside eleven others under "Matter, interpenetration" (it is also listed somewhat redundantly under "Interpenetration of matter" and "Perichoresis"). Among these are Charles Cloukey's 1932 short story "The Swordsman of Sarvon" and Ross Rocklynne's 1935 short story "Man of Iron", both of which fit the description of using technology for passing through matter. I also took a look at the "Motif and Theme Index" in Bleiler's earlier Science-Fiction: The Early Years, which likewise lists a number of stories under "Perichoresis" (among others Harriet Elizabeth Prescott Spofford's 1903 short story "The Ray of Displacement", also mentioned in The Encyclopedia of Science Fiction). So I think that settles it: with several stories written that much earlier (and an unclear number written between between the end of Bleiler's survey and "Rock Diver"), it can't really be called one of the first or an early example. TompaDompa (talk) 05:38, 8 July 2023 (UTC)

TompaDompa, Considering it's 2020s, I think a 1950s still counts as a time period for "an early example". But it's not a hill I care to die on :> If you'd have suggestions for any other hooks, be my guest, I proposed one above. --Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus| reply here 11:58, 8 July 2023 (UTC)
In many cases I would agree with you, but it depends on the context (for instance: I would not call a 1950s story an early example of space travel in science fiction, considering the history of that theme). As for alternative hooks, I might try to do something with the story resulting in a very long writing career despite it being something of a fluke that he wrote it at all. I'll see if I can come up with some snappy way of phrasing it for the hook. TompaDompa (talk) 00:17, 9 July 2023 (UTC)
TompaDompa, What about "credited with popularizing the concept of matter penetration" which I added to the lead there, based on my interpretation of what Budrys wrote? --Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus| reply here 02:23, 9 July 2023 (UTC)
My reading of Budrys' quote is as an assessment of writing quality, rather than popularization. That is, I interpret first fruited a basic technological idea in such a happy combination with story values that it is impossible to touch that idea again without having to find some totally new framework for it as "you have to find some new angle on the concept if you want to reuse it, because you can't surpass this story in this particular treatment of the concept". By the way, I would suggest using https://archive.org/details/Galaxy_v26n05_1968-06_2/page/126/mode/2up instead of Google Books for the reference. TompaDompa (talk) 02:43, 9 July 2023 (UTC)
We can discuss this on article's talk, but for me "first fruited a basic technological idea in... comination with story values" implies crediting the stories both for an early idea as well as literary execution, not just the latter. --Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus| reply here 02:50, 28 August 2023 (UTC)
  • @Piotrus, Onegreatjoke, and TompaDompa: What's the status of this nomination? There hasn't been a comment here since early July. Narutolovehinata5 (talk · contributions) 00:53, 28 August 2023 (UTC)
    • Narutolovehinata5, I think we need a new reviewer. The original reviewer did not comment on ALT1a/b, and my discussion with Tompa has concerned minor rewording of a sentence in the text, not any hooks. I remain active and happy to address any actionable concerns that relate to the DYK rules. To be clear, as far as I can tell, no concerns were raised about ALT1a/b, and the issue of rewording a sentence in the body (assuming the current version still is not up to TD's liking) is not, AFAIK, a DYK-level concern. --Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus| reply here 01:36, 28 August 2023 (UTC)
  • OGJ didn't respond to a message asking them to take another look at this so we need a new reviewer. Narutolovehinata5 (talk · contributions) 08:03, 30 August 2023 (UTC)
Sorry for ot responding earlier. Alt1b is good. Onegreatjoke (talk) 02:46, 31 August 2023 (UTC)
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