Talk:Voice type/Archive 2

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The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

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Musical roles on voice type pages

This issue has come up once again and perhaps it should be readdressed. Prior discussions on this topic were mostly held on the soprano talk page and opera wikiproject page but as this involves all of the voice types I think the discussion would be best to be had here. I personally have no problem including musical roles for voice types on these pages if the information given is cited. Past issues have been that the roles listed were not cited and arguments over which role belonged in which voice type were endless and frankly became a headache. For example, roles like Eliza Doolittle are often played by both mezzo-sopranos and sopranos. This is common in musical theatre where voice roles are not as clearly defined as they are in classical music. The result of the prior discussion was to not include such roles on the page. Like I said, I personally have no problem adding a list of roles to each page if such lists come from credible sources that are cited. The opera roles are cited and the musical roles should be too.Nrswanson (talk) 22:30, 9 February 2008 (UTC)

It should be noted that part of the prior solution was to create seperate pages for roles in musicals for the different voice types but these articles ultimately were nominated for an AFD and were summarily deleted due to lack of sources. Including similar uncited lists on the voice type pages would be in violation of the spirit of that AFD ruling.Nrswanson (talk) 22:47, 9 February 2008 (UTC)

What we could do is put next to the role that it may be played by another voice part. I say our "Source" is sheet music, unless the composer transposes the roles (ie Johanna, sweeney todd.) Wikipedia mentions timbre, weight, color. Cain't we go of of that? —Preceding unsigned comment added by JesusRocks123 (talk • contribs) 16:13, 11 February 2008 (UTC)

Individual vocal scores would be acceptable if they label a particular role with a particular voice type. If that role is not expressly labeled in the score as a soprano or other voice part than that decission becomes a matter of personal judgment which is opinion and would not be acceptable. And you would still have to cite such publications. Unfortunately, actual practice in musical theatre doesn't necessarily coincide with what is is in the printed score so conflicts will still occur. What would be best would be to find some musical theatre books which probably do contain such lists and reference them. That is much less subjective and will avoid future conflicts. Do a little digging and I am sure something will come up.Nrswanson (talk) 16:28, 11 February 2008 (UTC)

I'll do that. JesusRocks123 (talk) 16:51, 11 February 2008 (UTC)

Entirely agree that these lists are very encylopedic unlike what others have suggested. They should be included in lists and each role shoul possibly contain the range required for that particular role. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 86.149.40.212 (talk) 09:44, 19 February 2008 (UTC)

Would a singers anthology book be an acceptable reference? The anthology books are labeled by voice type.Broadweighbabe (talk) 07:09, 13 April 2008 (UTC)

Title

Can I suggest that this article is moved to Singing voice? For people coming to it with no context it is not clear that it is entirely about singing voice, whereas 'voice type' could mean some other classification. I wasn't even sure if it would be about voice-to-text systems. DJ Clayworth (talk) 17:27, 17 April 2008 (UTC)

The terminology used in vocal pedagogy is "voice type" so I don't think that would be an appropriate move. I have however, just changed the lead to make it clear that this article is about singing. The classification of voices in speech is actually a derivitive from the musical system and not the other way around. And there really is no practical use for classifying speeking voices so you won't really find anything but off hand comments in phonetics and linguistic books, which is based on musical classification. There isn't, to my knowledge anyway, any sort of definitive range specification for designating speeking voices. Only descriptions of vocal timbre which again use terms first coined in music. Nrswanson (talk) 17:59, 17 April 2008 (UTC)

I defer to your superior knowledge. DJ Clayworth (talk) 15:34, 18 April 2008 (UTC)

High Voice

There are countless references to "high voice" and "low voice" in musical literature. I hope someone will add these two articles to wikipedia. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 89.201.207.150 (talk) 12:57, 23 June 2008 (UTC)

I am not sure what you mean by those terms and strictly speeking I don't think they are technical terms in music vocabulary. "High voice" and "low voice" are certainly not technical terms within vocal pedagogy. The terms have nothing to do with labeling voices or indicating a part of the vocal range. The phrases might be used to refer to the upper or lower voices within a musical texture, in which case a mention on the Voicing (music) article would be appropriate providing the information is properly sourced. I don' think a whole article on the words is jusitfied though.Nrswanson (talk) 13:28, 23 June 2008 (UTC)

Concur with Nrswanson. — SMcCandlish [talk] [cont] ‹(-¿-)› 01:45, 7 August 2008 (UTC)

Vocal range

Shouldn't this article and Vocal range be merged? -- Ssilvers (talk) 22:30, 24 June 2008 (UTC)

I don't think so. Vocal range could also be discussed in the context of speech and not just singing which really makes it a different topic. Although I do think the vocal range article has moved beyond the scope of its topic into voice classification. That article needs to be re-written. I don't even like how the term vocal range is defined. Nrswanson (talk) 23:15, 24 June 2008 (UTC)

Concur with Nrswanson on all points. — SMcCandlish [talk] [cont] ‹(-¿-)› 01:45, 7 August 2008 (UTC)

Article messed up

Someone with more patience and time than I have tonight needs to go back through the edits and restore this article to a readable condition. Right now (01:43, 7 August 2008 (UTC)) it is full of gibberish, and lot of really questionable edits have been made (e.g. changing "middle" to "high" all over the place, and so on). — SMcCandlish [talk] [cont] ‹(-¿-)› 01:43, 7 August 2008 (UTC)

Black people

It would be interesing if someone explained what exactly makes the diffrence between black and white voices. What makes us able to identify singer's race when a song is played on the radio? Is this about a pitch or timbre or what? How does it affect singing e.g. in the opera? —Preceding unsigned comment added by 78.131.137.50 (talk) 07:11, 28 August 2008 (UTC)

• Actually it is not always possible to tell. Opera singers like Reri Grist, Harolyn Blackwell, and Kathleen Battle don't sound "black" to me. Likewise, when Renee Fleming, a white woman, sings jazz music she sounds like a black woman (a commment many vocal critics have made). However, that being said I would suspect that the genetics of black persons may play a role in a developing a distinct "black" sound. Genetic traits will result in certain physicl traits like the bone structure of the jaw, the shape of the neck and head, etc. Those physical traits all play a role in sound production as they effect vocal resonation. Culture may also play a large factor in developing a "black sound". However, I don't think anyone has ever done a serious study on the subject so this is just speculation that should not be included in the article.Nrswanson (talk) 10:19, 28 August 2008 (UTC)

Question

Is it possible to have audio clips for the voice types for people who don't know about musical notation, etc?