Talk:Voice type

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"mean" in renaissance vocal music

I've run across this term in liner notes to recordings of renaissance vocal music -- something similar in range but contrasted with treble. I have a Tallis recording in front of me, and it talks about scoring for MAATB vs TrMATB. I can't find anything about it on the web or WP. It's probably in Grove, but i don't have access to that right now. Seems a good thing to add to the list here and maybe somewhere in renaissance vocal music."alyosha" (talk) 16:09, 30 May 2009 (UTC)

Alyosha, I know this response is very late but I thought you might still want an answer. The term meane (sometimes spelled mean), was first used by composers of polyphonic choral music during the English pre-Reformation era and continued through Reformation era choral music. At this time choirs were often voiced in 5 parts, with MAATB being the in vogue voicing by Tallis and his contemporaries. The meane part was typically sung by boys whose voices were not as high as boy soprano but were not as low as a countertenor. Occasionally the meane line would be sung by a combination of treble (boy soprano) and countertenor voices.

Tr is short for treble. Today treble typically is used to refer to children's voices, but during the era of Tallis the term was applied to the highest vocal line, and it could be sung by adult women, boy sopranos, or castrati. Most likely it would not have indicated women in this context. Remember that at this point women were often excluded from participating in choirs and the tradition of all male choruses still predominated in the English Church during this era. For more information, see the following:

• Peter Le Huray (1967). Music and the Reformation in England 1549-1660. p. 121-122.
• Peter Giles (1994). The History and Technique of the Counter-Tenor: a study of the male high voice family. Ashgate: Scolar Press. p. 34-36. {{cite book}}: Cite has empty unknown parameter: |1= (help)
• "Eton Choirbook". Journal of the Plainsong & Mediaeval Music Society. 2: 52. 1981.
• "Cross-Sexual Casting in Baroque Opera". The Opera Quarterly. 5: 49. 1987.

I hope this was helpful and still of interest to you. I don't think this term and its information would be appropriate for the voice type article since its use was relegated to one region during a specific era and within the sole context of choral singing, but certainly a mention of the term in the article on choral music or Anglican church music would be appropriate. 4meter4 (talk) 21:41, 12 June 2015 (UTC)

Are male treble/soprano's counter tenors?

I was under the impression that the term counter tenor referred to singers who had trained their falsetto voice to be powerful enough and have sufficient range to cover much of the music written for castrati. I think of Alfred Deller as the pioneer of this voice type on stage (though I believe it was common in English church choirs before then). With this definition adult male sopranos or trebles whose voice never broke are not countertenors. What is the correct definition; the countertenor page is not clear? Perhaps a similar question is whether castrati are counter tenors, and I think the answer is clearly "no". Dumbledad (talk) 11:34, 14 December 2014 (UTC)

The article Countertenor gives some explanation and discusses male sopranos and altos; further questions might be better discussed at Talk:Countertenor. As for your edit at Voice type where you added: "Treble: Tough rare, a grown-man may not progress from his boyhood voice. This condition is known as Puberphonia." Do you know of any professional singers using such a voice? If not, that section should be removed as this article deals with singing voices in classical music. Further: how is puberphonia distinguished from Kallmann syndrome, which is mentioned here for male sopranos? If there are indeed classical singers affected by puberphonia, they might best be mentioned in the "Countertenor" section instead of being covered in a two-sentence paragraph "Treble". And as always, sources are essential. -- Michael Bednarek (talk) 12:13, 14 December 2014 (UTC)

I do not know how how is puberphonia is distinguished from Kallmann syndrome, other than that neither page mentions the other (weak reason, I know) and the adult mae treble I met (who explicitly did not consider himself a counter tenor) is not professional and I cannot find supporting references. While I try to get better evidence or explanations I'll remove the article addition. 13:36, 14 December 2014 (UTC) — Preceding unsigned comment added by Dumbledad (talk • contribs)

Discussion at Wikipedia talk:WikiProject Opera: Is Alto a voice type?

A discussion is taking place at Wikipedia talk:WikiProject Opera#Is Alto a voice type? (where I thought it would have some good visibility); please drop by to lend your "voice". Cheers, all. Prhartcom (talk) 19:43, 20 May 2015 (UTC)

scientific testing

The article mentions scientific testing several times but does not define it. Is it talking about recording a singing voice and applying an analyzer, for instance? Is there anything like x-ray or ultrasound imaging of the larynx, used to judge a singers potential or optimal range? Someone with expertise in this area would do the article a solid by filling in these blanks. ~ Alcmaeonid (talk) 10:20, 16 April 2017 (UTC)

De-gendering

There have been several attempts at de-gendering this article over the years, however discussing voice types without mentioning gender (or biological sex or whatever) isn't supported by the preponderance of reliable sources. Unless and until it is, we shouldn't attempt to do so either. Certainly some rewording or clarification might be warranted in some places, but not just removing any reference to gender or sex, and it's probably an idea to propose such changes here first.----Pontificalibus 06:40, 31 August 2021 (UTC)

Agreed. With the rise of new ideas about gender as a conceptual framework as opposed to a matter of biology, inevitably that is impacting any classification system that has historically used sex/gender as a way of organizing people. I do think there are people challenging this system and there are outliers. An outlier example would be Michael Maniaci who is a male soprano (not a countertenor) because his larynx never lengthened and he employs a technique like a female soprano and not a countertenor who uses falsetto. Lucia Lucas was a male presenting baritone before she transitioned and is now a female baritone. As more trans artists become visible, I think inevitably the way we talk about voice types is going to have to adapt. However, until the literature itself makes that transition, wikipedia can not do so.

As a voice teacher and choir director, I have already seen a marked shift in how we are asked to frame conversations around voice types or vocal sections (as choir sections can have multiple voice types singing together) with students. It's already best professional practice to remove gender labels from choir sections to support transitioning students, and having singers like Miss Lucas is helpful in showing students that voice types can have multiple genders. That said, my issue with removing gender/sex from voice classification entirely is it gets rid of a lot of valuable information about the singer's biology which does impact voice production. We can't ignore the fact that puberty impacts biological men and women differently in terms of how the vocal chords develop at that point in time, and the way voices alter and change over time is different from biological men and women. Additionally, any alteration to traditional practice is a POV that may not be accepted universally. As such, even if and when we change the article it will have be done in a balanced way that presents both traditional organizational structures and new ways of thinking about gender and voice types. This is very much an evolving topic in vocal music education, and I imagine much will be written in the next decade on this issue. Once we have those publications I am sure changes can be made with thoughtful attention to maintaining a neutral point of view. Best.4meter4 (talk) 15:23, 31 August 2021 (UTC)

I envision a way to expand on what notes each singer is able to sing without breaking. for me I'm not sure my usual singing voice but i suspect baritone or next higher (YES, i'm born XY) but in addition i am very good bass when singing "Old Man River" (plus other low songs) and my "Cherie" (jersey boys) has perfect falsetto...

Meanwhile I can do a good one-man rendering of the 4-part "Daddy sang bass" (technically it sounds as three part harmony since "... 'n' me and brother just joined right in ..." ) LOL

BUT because using singing range doesn't need gender references this could remove normal genderizing used currently without overtly "de-gendering" it's a goal that shouldn't be controversial UNLESS TROLLS ARE ALLOWED TO ADD THE DRAMA.

as example... there are both male and female singers touted as "5 octaves" (any 6 octaves?), and the low, middle and high ranges could be included for full coverage of 12 octaves Qazwiz (talk) 20:05, 20 July 2022 (UTC)

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Music

Lowest famale voice 175.176.68.126 (talk) 05:06, 9 June 2022 (UTC)

Wiki Education assignment: Music in History Intersectionality and Music

This article was the subject of a Wiki Education Foundation-supported course assignment, between 17 January 2023 and 9 May 2023. Further details are available on the course page. Student editor(s): TUJ51090 (article contribs).

— Assignment last updated by Shiyang Fan (talk) 15:14, 21 March 2023 (UTC)

Hi Ellie0010 (talk) 19:36, 30 April 2023 (UTC)