Talk:Tommy Byars

HELP

I need someone to help me with this article, PLEASE. I am about to give up. Draft talk:Tommy Byars Cjmodica (talk) 16:13, 5 October 2022 (UTC)

@Cjmodica, you've been getting a lot of advice at the Teahouse. Maybe you need to slow down and work on this in draft for a while without submitting it. Read Help:Referencing for beginners, which you've been repeatedly linked to, and figure out how to correctly cite the newspapers. Maybe also read up on reliable sources. It's a lot of reading, take your time. Also, would you please clarify whether you have a COI or not? Just a yes or no answer is fine. 199.208.172.35 (talk) 16:26, 5 October 2022 (UTC)

No Cjmodica (talk) 16:48, 5 October 2022 (UTC)

Thank you. Good luck with the draft. 199.208.172.35 (talk) 16:49, 5 October 2022 (UTC)

I just don't have the time to do this. Is there anyone that volunteers to take over an article? Cjmodica (talk) 16:49, 5 October 2022 (UTC)

Cullen328 apparently has a bit of interest in motorcyclists (one, at least), so I've pinged them for you, @Cjmodica - hope you don't mind, Cullen328. Otherwise, perhaps you could post on the talk page of the Motorsport WikiProject (it's here). There's also a WikiProject for motorcycling, but it doesn't seem very active. 199.208.172.35 (talk) 16:58, 5 October 2022 (UTC)

Thank you; I appreciate it. I hope to hear from Collen328 soon! Cjmodica (talk) 17:13, 5 October 2022 (UTC)

@Cjmodica, you may not be aware of this, so I'll point it out. When you're editing the draft, look up at the little bar on top of the edit window - the one with B I etc. You'll see "Advanced > Special characters > Help > Cite". Click "Cite". Then click "Templates" in the little bar which drops down below. Pick "cite news" and a box will pop out. All you have to do is fill out the information in that box and click "Insert", and a properly formatted template will be placed in the draft wherever your cursor is. You can even preview it using the "preview" button. 199.208.172.35 (talk) 15:32, 7 October 2022 (UTC)

OMG; thank you so much! I will certainly try this. I am extremely slow at learning how to get around in Wikipedia and writing articles, but hope to master its someday. Thanks again! Cjmodica (talk) 16:39, 7 October 2022 (UTC)

News coverage

Putting this list from the article here:

• ^ "Today's Entry List For Motorcycle Card". Illinois State Journal and Register. Springfield, IL. Aug 21, 1955.

• ^ "Beaumont Motorcyclist to Race in Florida Classic". Beaumont Journal News. Beaumont, TX. 9 Mar 1955.

• ^ "Byars Captures Cycle Feature". Fort Worth Star-Telegram. Fort Worth, Texas. 6 Jun 1955.

• ^ "Local Cyclist Replaces Ex-Beaumonter as SW Champ". Beaumont Enterprise Newspaper. Beaumont, TX. 29 Oct 1953.

• ^ "Bike Aces Arrive Here for Big Race". The Times Newspaper. San Mateo, CA. 23 Jul 1954.

• ^ "Texas Cycle Champ to Race at Meadows". San Francisco Chronicle Newspaper. San Franscico, CA. 23 Jul 1954.

• ^ "Views In The News-Tommy Byars (63) Barrels his Harley Davidson across the finish line to win the Southwest Championship race". American Motorcyclist. Shreveport, LA. Jan 1955.

• ^ "Byars is Rated 'Man to Beat' for State Fair Cycle Honors". The Times Newspaper. Shreveport, Louisiana. 27 Oct 1953.

• ^ "Tommy Byars Captured the Southwest flat track motorcycle title". The times Newspaper. Shreveport, Louisiana. 27 Oct 1953.

• ^ "Tommy Byars Here for Motorcycle Races". Nashville Banner Newspaper. Nashville,TN. 30 Aug 1952.

• ^ "50 Motorcyclist Scheduled to Race in Events Here Today, One of Nation's Best, Tommy Byars". The Times Newspaper. Shreveport, LA. 6 Sep 1953.

• ^ "40 Riders in State Fair Event". The Times Newspaper. Shreveport, LA. 22 Oct 1955.

• ^ "Motorcycle Champions to Race Sunday, Tommy Byars, four-time Texas State and Southwest Champion". The Times Newspaper. Shreveport, LA. 31 May 1956.

• ^ "Southwest Regional Cycle Races Booked". The Times Newspaper. Shreveport, Louisiana. 22 Oct 1957.

• ^ "Motorcycle Races Slated Today at Fair Grounds". The Times Newspaper. Shreveport, LA. 17 Jul 1949.

• ^ "Today's Entry List For Motorcycle Card". Illinois State Journal and Register. Springfield, IL. Aug 21, 1955.

• ^ "Entries for 100-mile Daytona Beach Race Saturday". Daytona Beach Morning Journal. Daytona Beach, FL. 11 Mar 1949.

• ^ "Motorcycle Racer, Expert From Beaumont, Texas". The times Newspaper. Shreveport, LA. 16 Jun 1953.

• ^ "Motorcycle Races Sunday at Gulfcoast Speedway". Sun Harald Newspaper. Biloxi, Mississippi. 15 May 1953.

• ^ "New Mark Set in Cycle Races, Tommy Byars, High Money Winner". Fort Worth Star-Telegram. Fort Worth, Texas. 8 Jun 1953.

• ^ "BYARS COPS CYCLE RACE". Austin American-Statesman. Austin, Texas. 26 Apr 1954.

• ^ "Cycle Title Up For Grabs". The Times Newspaper. Shreveport, LA. 20 Oct 1954.

• ^ "Cycle Races at Fort Worth". Times Record News. Wichita Falls, Texas. 8 May 1954.

• ^ "Light Weight Class Winners in Victory Lane". DAYTONA BEACH MORNING JOURNAL. Daytona, FL. 11 Mar 1971.

Gråbergs Gråa Sång (talk) 09:32, 13 October 2022 (UTC)

It's hard to believe that with all that coverage, more Template:Infobox motorcycle rider parameters cannot be filled in. Unfortunately I don't know what they mean. ~Anachronist (talk) 14:12, 13 October 2022 (UTC)

What is a Template:Infobox motorcycle rider ? Cjmodica (talk) 17:07, 17 October 2022 (UTC)

Commons files used on this page or its Wikidata item have been nominated for deletion

The following Wikimedia Commons files used on this page or its Wikidata item have been nominated for deletion:

• 1952 Tommy Byars.jpg
• Daytona Monument Wall.jpg
• Tommy Byars -63.jpg

Participate in the deletion discussion at the nomination page. —Community Tech bot (talk) 09:22, 14 October 2022 (UTC)

Categories on WP

@CharlemagneJane, see WP:CATSPECIFIC. Basically, "American motorcycle racers" beats "Motorcycle racers", and if we had "Motorcycle racers from Texas", that would be better still. And stuff like Category:Companies or Category:Motorcycle races doesn't fit since he wasn't a company or a motorcycle race. Gråbergs Gråa Sång (talk) 21:50, 27 December 2022 (UTC)

Genealogybank

@Theroadislong: from what I can tell, this website is not a source itself, but a newspaper archive similar to Newspapers.com, and so wouldn't cause the actual sources to be unreliable. Thoughts? ■ ∃ Madeline ⇔ ∃ Part of me ; 11:29, 29 December 2022 (UTC)

But there might be a copyright issue? It would be preferable to have the name of the newspaper with dates and page numbers and not a photographic copy, but I can't access the source. Theroadislong (talk) 12:07, 29 December 2022 (UTC)

If it's an WP:ELNEVER issue, shouldn't the links just be removed? The citation, if RS, is valid regardless of the link. ■ ∃ Madeline ⇔ ∃ Part of me ; 12:13, 29 December 2022 (UTC)

My current assumption is that links like [23] are ok, so it's not obvious to me that there is a problem. One for WP:MCQ perhaps? Gråbergs Gråa Sång (talk) 13:46, 29 December 2022 (UTC)

Gråbergs Gråa Sång It was the https://www.genealogybank.com links that I wasn't sure of, because I can't see them. Theroadislong (talk) 13:58, 29 December 2022 (UTC)

Yeah, I haven't tried to look either, so I'm guessing atm that the sites work in a similar way. Fwiw, they have a WP-article: GenealogyBank. Gråbergs Gråa Sång (talk) 14:04, 29 December 2022 (UTC)

Generally, it seems adding links to archive websites like Newspapers.com, the Wayback Machine, Google Books, etc. seem to be OK from a copyright standpoint per WP:COPYLINK as long as they're hosting true copies of the original material. Such sites, however, aren't the original source and shouldn't be cited as such. They're really nothing more than WP:CONVENIENCE links and should be treated as such; meaning they're not essential and the original source can be cited without any link. The fact that GenealogyBank requires some form of registration to access is also not a reason to discount it per se per WP:PAYWALL, but it probably should be assessed to see whether it's hosting true copies or modified copies or otherwise user-generated content. Perhaps asking at WP:RX and see if someone there is able to access the website to verify the content of the sources cited and then asking at WP:ELN to see whether it's OK to link to will help sort this out. -- Marchjuly (talk) 22:28, 29 December 2022 (UTC)

Afaict, there are no "cited as such" in the current article. Perhaps the WP:LIBRARY could include it at some point. Gråbergs Gråa Sång (talk) 07:55, 30 December 2022 (UTC)

I asked about this at WP:ELN#GenealogyBank and the one person who responded so far seems to think adding the links isn't a problem per WP:COPYLINK. It might be better to reformat the citations using the |via= parameter to indicate the links are to GenealogyBank (|via=GenealogoyBank]]) and not directly to the source article. The |url-access= parameter could also be used and set to |url-access=registration or |url-access=subscription to indicate the links are not directly accessible. Of course, there's no way to verify them for sure per WP:RSCONTEXT unless someone else can access them. I asked about that at WP:RX#GenealogyBank, but haven't gotten a response yet. It's also possible the same articles might be available through some other newspaper archive like Newspapers.com which may be a bit easier to access. -- Marchjuly (talk) 09:39, 30 December 2022 (UTC)

No objection to those improvements. Gråbergs Gråa Sång (talk) 10:19, 30 December 2022 (UTC)

I can access them. I can upload a copy of an original article if that would help. CharlemagneJane (talk) 16:06, 31 December 2022 (UTC)

I have subscriptions to both Newspapers.com and GeneologyBank. The articles that were found on GenBank have not been found on Newspapers.com and oddly, those that were found on Newspapers.com were not found on GenBank. The url takes me directly to the news page where I can clip the article and download, print or save to my folder. I understand that if one does not have a subscription, then they would be required to register to see the articles and newspapers. If someone wants to do a trial subscription in order to verify some of these, that would not cost if canceled within the trial period. Just a thought! CharlemagneJane (talk) 03:26, 4 January 2023 (UTC)

I have a subscription to Genealogy Bank and I can see and read every article, but I am finding out that if someone does not have a subscription, they cannot link to the articles. CharlemagneJane (talk) 06:43, 31 December 2022 (UTC)

@CharlemagneJane: What happens when you click on the url links you've added as part of the citations? Are you immediately taken to the article you're citing? Do you have to login first and then you're taken to the article you're citing? Are the articles part of a scan of an entire newspaper or an entire page of a newspaper like this, or are they clippings like this? The urls for GenealogyBank you've added are quite long, and they kind of look like the types of urls you get when you're using a website's search function to find something in particular. For example, the url for the "Harley Davidson Dealer Ray Byars" citation is www.genealogybank.com/sign-up?pq=1&destination=doc%2Fnewspapers%2Fimage%2Fv2%3A11FCD9F6C526DCD9%40GB3NEWS-168C86EE25C530AB%402426594-168C826F95972F5E%404-168C826F95972F5E%40%3Fh%3D1%26fname%3DRay%26lname%3DByars%26fullname%3D%26kwinc%3D%26kwexc%3D%26rgfromDate%3D%26rgtoDate%3D%26formDate%3D9%2520Sep%25201931%26formDateFlex%3Dexact%26dateType%3Ddate%269%3D&docref=image%2Fv2%3A11FCD9F6C526DCD9%40GB3NEWS-168C86EE25C530AB%402426594-168C826F95972F5E%404-168C826F95972F5E%40 which is really quite long and cumbersome to use. Is this the same url you see in your browser when you access this particular article? If there are more direct and shorter urls for the articles you're citing, it might be easier to use them instead. -- Marchjuly (talk) 08:11, 31 December 2022 (UTC)

Yes, when I click on the url link, it takes me to the page where the article is located. I don't have to login everytime unless for some reason I was logged out. The article is part of an entire page and when I go to the page, I clip the article so that it takes me right to the article but you can still view the whole page and if you want to download or print the clipped article, you can without printing the entire page. The url is long, but it does take you directly to the page that that contains the article. CharlemagneJane (talk) 12:37, 31 December 2022 (UTC)

That particular link took me to the page where I had searched for Ray Byars. This is the link to Harley Davidson Dealer Ray Byars. It takes me directly to the article. May I upload a picture somewhere to show it? https://www.genealogybank.com/doc/newspapers/image/v2%3A11FCD9F6C526DCD9%40GB3NEWS-168C86EE25C530AB%402426594-168C826F95972F5E%404-168C826F95972F5E%40?h=1&fname=Ray&lname=Byars&fullname=&kwinc=&kwexc=&rgfromDate=&rgtoDate=&formDate=9%20Sep%201931&formDateFlex=exact&dateType=date&%209 CharlemagneJane (talk) 16:17, 31 December 2022 (UTC)

Please don't upload any photos of newspaper clippings since that potentially would create copyright problems and make them unable to be used, even if you didn't directly upload them to Wikipedia or Commons. Such a step is also not necessary for citation purposes per WP:OFFLINE. You might, perhaps, try to see if shortening the links is possible. Links directly to the articles themselves are much better than links found using the website's search feature. If you can find more of those links and use them instead of the "search" links for the urls, then that would help. In addition, if you can double check the articles you're citing to see whether the any more of the information listed in WP:CS#Newspaper articles can be found, then that would be helpful as well. Even though there lots of citations, there's no deadline here per WP:NODEADLINES; so, just do a few when you get the chance. If you mess something up along the way, don't worry since someone else can almost certainly fix whatever it is or you can simply WP:SELFREVERT back to the last stable version of the article. Given it's the New Year, you might not get responses as quickly as you would during some other time since people tend to be focusing on other things during the holiday season. -- Marchjuly (talk) 21:54, 31 December 2022 (UTC)

Thank you. I will certainly try to find a shorter link to the articles. I hope I can do this. Happy New Year! CharlemagneJane (talk) 00:06, 1 January 2023 (UTC)

The only other information that I could add to each source would be the page numbers if that will help. Also, does the title have to be exactly like the article or can it be paraphrased? I have done that on some of them but can correct them if necessary. CharlemagneJane (talk) 16:08, 2 January 2023 (UTC)

The page numbers are helpful as long as they are the page numbers of the paper the article appears in and not something else. You shouldn't really be paraphrasing the names of articles, but should use the actual title of the article if it's known. If the articles are appearing on multiple pages, there's a way to work around this so that more than one url can be used in a single citation. The first page of the article where its title is clearly shown should be added to the |ur= parameter and subsequent pages can be linked to using the |pages= parameter. For example, a citation for a newspaper article spanning multiple pages could be formatted like <ref>{{cite news|last=Pedia|first=Wiki|url=https://www.example.com|title=Example citation for articles with multiple pages|date=January 3, 2022|pages=1, [https://www.example.com 54], [https://www.example.com 102]|newspaper=The Daily Wikipedian|via=Genealogy Bank|access-date=January 3, 2022}}</ref> which would look like Pedia, Wiki (January 3, 2022). "Example citation for articles with multiple pages". The Daily Wikipedian. pp. 1, 54, 102. Retrieved January 3, 2022 – via Genealogy Bank. in the "References" section. There's also a way format citations to articles with multiple pages by treating each page as a separate citation as explained in WP:OPCIT and WP:CITEPAGE. -- Marchjuly (talk) 10:31, 3 January 2023 (UTC)

You can also, for say a book or multipage other, make one reference, WP:REFNAME it so it's easy to cite more than once, and add page numbers with Template:Rp to the separate citations in-text. My personal preference. The Bible and humor is an example of how that looks. Gråbergs Gråa Sång (talk) 12:29, 3 January 2023 (UTC)

Okay; so much information to grasp but willing to try and learn it! Thanks! CharlemagneJane (talk) 15:32, 3 January 2023 (UTC)

Thank you! I have been adding the page numbers of the actual newspaper article and correcting the titles. I have not figured out how to shorten the url links but still looking for a way to do that. Adding the page numbers is a long process since there are so many articles, but slowly getting there. Thanks for all of your advice. CharlemagneJane (talk) 15:30, 3 January 2023 (UTC)

I hope I am asking this question on the correct page. Would you please look at the references for Tommy Byars (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tommy_Byars) under racing career and see if I am doing it correctly? Don't want to continue if it is wrong! I am trying to follow the format that someone else added for paid subscription and to make the links shorter, but not sure if I am doing it correctly. Please advise. CharlemagneJane (talk) 14:37, 5 January 2023 (UTC)

​They looked OK for the most part, but I did some tweaking. One quick way to check for errors in citations is to click on the "Edit" button and then click on "Show preview". At the very top of the page, you see a light-orange colored box. If there are formatting or syntax errors in any of the citations, you'll usually see a notification in this box. It tends to be a very general description of the problem, but if you then scroll down to the bottom of the page and look at the references, you usually see red error messages added to the citations that have said problems. Anyway, citation template syntax errors are quite common and there are a number of WP:BOTs and users who simply go around looking for them and fixing them; so, even if you make a mistake, it should eventually get fixed by someone or something. One other thing you might want to try and avoid is the adding of an "excessive" number of citations or needless repetition of citations as explained in WP:REFCLUTTER; for example, seven citations for a statement like you've done in Tommy Byars#Racing career. If you're citing lots of sources for the same content and these sources pretty much equally support the content (i.e. you can more than sufficiently verify a statement with one or two citations without need to check any more), then it might be better to pick the one or two that are most reliable and easier to access, and cite only them. -- Marchjuly (talk) 23:00, 5 January 2023 (UTC)

Thank you so much. CharlemagneJane (talk) 00:10, 6 January 2023 (UTC)

Burn and hospitalization section

This reads more like a family history anecdote and doesn't really belong in an encyclopaedia. Theroadislong (talk) 18:25, 29 December 2022 (UTC)

I kind of agree and it looks like a case of WP:NOTEVERYTHING. Perhaps it can be trimmed and somehow incorporated into the "Career" section since I'd imagine the injuries that resulted from this accident probably impacted Byars racing career in some way. It would also be a good idea if there was a bit more about Byars' death, particularly supported by a reliable secondary source and not a link to a mortuary's website which seems fairly WP:UGC. A newspaper or magazine obituary about Byars written by someone unconnected to him would be much better as a source for this type of thing. Right now, there's nothing about Byars' death in the "Personal life" section other than a single sentence saying he was survived by his children and grandchildren. -- Marchjuly (talk) 10:01, 3 January 2023 (UTC)

Thank you; I will work on this. CharlemagneJane (talk) 15:26, 3 January 2023 (UTC)