Talk:The Grudge (2020 film)

New Page Review

@MatthewVanitas, Bovineboy2008, and Rt2294: Technically this should probably have remained in draft until principal photography actually began (ref WP:NFF) On a near-enough-is-good-enough basis, I'm passing it through WP:NPP rather than re-redirecting given that its production has some level of sigcov, and filming is (probably) to begin some time this month. If in the unlikely event that production falls over in the next 30 days... ^~Hydronium^~Hydroxide^~(Talk)~ 12:41, 1 May 2018 (UTC)

Sources and expansion

Looking over the article, and considering the sources that exist on the film, the production section is not as developed as it should be, with information on the film's casting and filming underdeveloped and needing significant expansion. I have worked on fixing some citation issues that I found in the article, but someone else will need to expand the above-mentioned sections as I am currently working on a bunch of projects at the moment. I have found an additional source that can be added when I was researching anouther article. Hope this helps.--Paleface Jack (talk) 19:21, 17 December 2019 (UTC) \https://filmschoolrejects.com/the-grudge-set-visit/

Still neutral or just a troll?

An anonymous user added this in, but I don't know what I should do next. I wanted to add commas to make the statement clear but it seems like this user is simply trying to trashtalk the movie, especially since I don't see any references to said reviews and the Criticism section doesn't mention anything either.

The Grudge was released in the United States on January 3, 2020, by Sony Pictures Releasing. The film received generally negative reviews from critics for its script, acting, under usage of characters, over usage of predictable jump scares and its story calling it dull derivative boring unoriginal and a disjointed mess but praise the premise cast and visual atmosphere.

Chlod (say hi) 13:53, 4 January 2020 (UTC)

Fixed. −αΣn=1NDi[n][Σj∈C{i}Fji[n − 1]+Fexti[(n^−1)] 16:00, 4 January 2020 (UTC)

Agreed with the previous concerns about user editing to trash talk the film in the header. The language is toned down there a bit now, but there is still a user who seem insistent on editing it so it reads that, '. Critics and audiences described it as "dull" and "derivative".' On face value, this is of course unobjectionable, if in fact there in wide enough proof that critics and audiences found the film "dull" and "derivative". But as it stands, there is only one citation from one critic who found the film 'derivative' (no mention of dull) and certainly no indication that dull and derivative was the general consensus among audience members, so it doesn't seem appropriate. 173.88.250.97 (talk) —Preceding undated comment added 20:58, 13 March 2020 (UTC)

2019 vs 2020

I requested a technical move to The Grudge (2019 film) but was told to open a discussion here first. Per sources now in the article, the film began its international rollout on 31st December 2019. See IMDb, TheNumbers and BoxOfficeMojo. - Forty.4 (talk) 17:20, 14 February 2024 (UTC)

@Forty.4: Since the proposal is supported by BOM and The Numbers (both of whom deemed RS by WP:FILM/R) as well as in compliance with MOS:FILM. I give it my support. I don't believe further discussion is needed, to that end, so please be bold and initiate the move proposal again if you haven't. Nineteen Ninety-Four guy (talk) 15:04, 27 March 2024 (UTC)

On second thought, I just initiated the move proposal on your behalf. Just toss in your support if you agree with the proposal. Nineteen Ninety-Four guy (talk) 15:43, 27 March 2024 (UTC)

Requested move 27 March 2024

The Grudge (2020 film) → The Grudge (2019 film) – According to Box Office Mojo and The Numbers (both of which have been vetted as reliable by WP:FILM/R), the movie's earliest release date was December 31, 2019 in Indonesia: [1][2]; as per MOS:FILM, such date should be considered when determining release dates of movie articles. Initiating this move request on behalf of User:Forty.4, whose technical move request was contested over a month ago (see post above), hence this request. Nineteen Ninety-Four guy (talk) 15:17, 27 March 2024 (UTC)

• Oppose. This is one of those rare cases where WP:IAR makes sense. The film was released on January 1/early January everywhere else worldwide, so it's more logical for this film to be associated with 2020, not 2019. 162 etc. (talk) 15:52, 27 March 2024 (UTC)
• Support. It was released in 2019, so it should be listed as a 2019 release. I don't see how this is controversial. IMDb and Letterboxd also list this as a 2019 title (due to the fact that... it was released in 2019). - Forty.4 (talk) 06:03, 1 April 2024 (UTC)
• Oppose per 162 etc. feminist🩸 (talk) 15:45, 3 April 2024 (UTC)
• Oppose agree with 162 etc. this is an IAR case, this was released at the start of 2020 in all countries, except Indonesia where it was released on the very last day of 2019. The film was produced in the United States where it was released on 3 Jan 2020. Polyamorph (talk) 10:35, 7 April 2024 (UTC)
• Support per the guidelines, which do not say to round up and down if a film is released at the very beginning or end of a year. The point of the release year is to serve as a marker to sort out article titles--that's all! The article's lead section itself says the film was first released in 2019, and it makes sense for the article title and lead section and article body to be in sync. I see no reason to invoke WP:IAR here. Would editors have opposed this if the December 31 release was in the US itself? The actual logic is that the film was first released into the world at large in 2019. This Wikipedia is for the world and just happens to be in the English language. Erik (talk | contrib) ^{(ping me)} 14:04, 7 April 2024 (UTC)

  No, the film was released into the world at large in 2020. It was released in Indonesia in 2019 - a few hours before 2020. From a worldwide perspective, for everybody outside of Indonesia, this is a 2020 film. 162 etc. (talk) 16:48, 7 April 2024 (UTC)

  Yep, Indonesia is the anomaly here. Commonsense applies. Polyamorph (talk) 17:35, 7 April 2024 (UTC)

  Indonesia is a cinema-going country as much as any other, and Indonesian cinema-goers buy tickets just like everyone else in the world. What is this arbitrary America-centrism and how is it garnering any support at all? - Forty.4 (talk) 18:11, 12 April 2024 (UTC)

• Oppose per 162 etc. The Indonesian release is one of those rare cases of a singular early release whereas the rest of the releases are 2020. This is unlike other films that premiered or were released a month or more before going wide. IAR seems most applicable here. Trailblazer101 (talk) 22:56, 8 April 2024 (UTC)
• Oppose for now. While we might usually consider the earliest notable release date and call it a day, there are enough conflicting sources here categorizing it as a 2020 film: Rotten Tomatoes, Metacritic, and most notably, AllMovie. I'd generally give these a bit more weight over BOM and The Numbers, and certainly over IMDB. --GoneIn60 (talk) 23:23, 8 April 2024 (UTC)

  Support – Per WP:FILMRELEASE and additional discussion below with Betty. Wikipedia typically uses the earliest notable release date to the public, and this serves us best when mainstream sources disagree over the release year of a film. Our guidelines do not override reliable sources, but when they disagree, they give us a consistent, common sense path forward. --GoneIn60 (talk) 15:37, 10 April 2024 (UTC)

• Oppose Is there an Indonesian source that published the premier date? The Numbers and BOM are Western sites. It is possible that it was released on January 1 in Indonesia, while the first information started showing up in the US where it was still December 31. Something similar occurred with Dr. Brain (TV series) where an official premiere on November 4 to coincide with a South Korean Apple TV+ launch, which was actually still November 3 in the US (where it simultaneously showed up) [Snippet]. The Indonesian wiki entry id:The Grudge (film 2020) was not helpful in searching for this. -2pou (talk) 23:25, 8 April 2024 (UTC)

  On second thought, I'm neutral on this. I did find these two pieces: published a few days ahead and published day of which mention seeing it on 31 December. I have no clue as to the reliability of these sources, though. -2pou (talk) 23:49, 8 April 2024 (UTC)

  The Indonesian Wikipedia has never been helpful lol. Tirto.id is a reputable high-quality source, don't doubt it. Neocorelight (Talk) 04:56, 9 April 2024 (UTC)

  These are news articles referencing the opening in Indonesia on December 31, which was never in question. I'm not sure any number of similar examples will move the needle in this debate. Consider a product launch or new ride at an amusement park that holds a preview event weeks or months in advance. Although the article may cover the soft launch in some detail, the date the new product is widely released to the public is what gets the most coverage and attention in reliable sources long-term (of which Wikipedia is a reflection of). A product is typically categorized by year of wide release, not by year of development or soft launch.

  If there's an exception to the general rule for film, someone forgot to tell the oft-cited RT, MC, and AllMovie. --GoneIn60 (talk) 07:23, 9 April 2024 (UTC)

  The Indonesian release was a normal wide commercial release (it opened in 589 theaters and grossed $776,682 in its opening weekend), not at all comparable to a "soft launch" or a "preview event." If this release had been in the US or the UK I believe this discussion wouldn't be happening at all. It's frankly peculiar that an argument that amounts to "Well, it's only Indonesia, so, pfff," is getting any support. - Forty.4 (talk) 17:36, 18 April 2024 (UTC)

  "It's frankly peculiar that an argument that amounts to 'Well, it's only Indonesia, so, pfff,' is getting any support." That oversimplification wasn't my argument, Forty.4. If you were paying attention, you would have noticed I already switched from oppose to support. You might want to step away from this idea you keep repeating that all who oppose must be blinded by Western bias; clearly you were wrong about me. You've made your point several times over now...maybe it's time to take a breather. --GoneIn60 (talk) 19:34, 18 April 2024 (UTC)

  I'm glad you changed your stance. But your post above suggests that the Indonesian release was not a wide release and characterises it as in some way analagous to a "soft launch" or "preview event", which is a plain mischaracterisation that I think warranted a rebuttal for the broader purpose of this discussion. - Forty.4 (talk) 00:11, 19 April 2024 (UTC)

  I did, in fact, argue that a product release in a single territory is not something I would generally consider a "wide release" in terms of a product launch. There can be exceptions, like when the territory in question represents a significant market share of the overall consumer base. For example in film, a release that has only happened in the U.S. would still be considered significant, because on 2600+ screens, that accounts for more than 25% of the total number of screens worldwide (not counting China). Furthermore, the profit studios get from theaters domestically in the U.S. is often greater than what they receive overseas.

  That is not a "mischaracterization" or a prejudice against Indonesia as you seem to be suggesting when you accuse others of harboring some kind of elitist "America-centrism". Just an educated opinion based on simple economics and math. I changed my stance for reasons unrelated to this opinion. -- GoneIn60 (talk) 01:38, 19 April 2024 (UTC)

  OK. Well, I believe that is very much a mischaracterisation, by way of inappropriate analogy, because that's not what 'wide release' means in the context of a film release. It has nothing to do with the size of the country, its 'significance' relative to other countries (NB), or the return on investment for the distributor; these are not factors that go into determining whether a film has received a wide or limited release in a given territory. - Forty.4 (talk) 12:48, 19 April 2024 (UTC)

  Within a given a territory, sure, but my perspective is worldwide. Had the film only released in Indonesia and nowhere else, then it would have been a limited release from that perspective. All a moot point not worth further discussion in this thread, since it is not applicable to either of our stances. -- GoneIn60 (talk) 15:00, 19 April 2024 (UTC)

  I suppose that's technically true from that perspective, but it's a misapplication of the concepts of 'wide' and 'limited' releases, which are film industry terms that are used to delineate the scale of national releases. A film released wide exclusively in one country (as, say, many Chinese films are) would not be described as a 'limited international release', that's just not the industry parlance. And the fact that the Indonesian release in 2019 was a totally routine, wide commercial release, with no asterisks attached, is actually an important point to emphasise. - Forty.4 (talk) 17:45, 19 April 2024 (UTC)

  And I don't believe I am oversimplifying the 'oppose' position here. It is simply a blithe, arbitrary dismissal of the legitimacy of the Indonesian release.

  A summary so far:

  • "The film was released on January 1/early January everywhere else worldwide"
  • "this was released at the start of 2020 in all countries, except Indonesia"
  • "From a worldwide perspective, for everybody outside of Indonesia, this is a 2020 film"
  • "Indonesia is the anomaly here"
  • "The Indonesian release is one of those rare cases of a singular early release whereas the rest of the releases are 2020"
  • "this being a "2020" film in every way that is meaningful to the typical Wikipedia reader"

  To characterise the above as 'Well, it's only Indonesia, so, pfff' is, I think, accurate. - Forty.4 (talk) 00:31, 19 April 2024 (UTC)

  As I said before, none of those were my arguments. The "pff" remark you made wasn't applicable to me. This will be my last attempt to hammer that point home for you before stepping away. I suggest you do the same. No need to WP:BLUDGEON this discussion any further. -- GoneIn60 (talk) 01:51, 19 April 2024 (UTC)

  Alright. I do think your comment reads as being in line with the above, but since you insist it isn't, I apologise for misattributing this position to you. End of. - Forty.4 (talk) 12:54, 19 April 2024 (UTC)

• Support I think we have to be careful about deferring to sources from English-speaking countries in establishing whether it was a 2019 or 2020 film. The fact is it was a 2019 film as far as publication is concerned, if that is when it was first made available to the paying public. That is the year the copyright kicks in. The Exorcist was released on December 26, 1973 in the United States and its roll-out started in 1974 for everywhere else, so by the same logic wouldn't that make it a 1974 film? It seems Wikipedia is adopting a very arbitrary position. What makes The Exorcist a 1973 film? The fact it played in 1973 for six days instead of one? The fact it opened in the United States, and not Indonesia? Betty Logan (talk) 11:06, 9 April 2024 (UTC)

  Great example to compare to. Could it be that in both situations, we have an American film in which its "wide" release is being properly documented by year? Perhaps Indonesia, for whatever reason (e.g. smaller screen count), wasn't seen as a wide release by some sources? That seems to be the only reason for the discrepancy I can think of among sources, unless there's another explanation. --GoneIn60 (talk) 14:08, 9 April 2024 (UTC)

  There are others as well, like Superman II which began its roll-out in 1980, but was held back until 1981 in the UK and US. The guidelines seem pretty clear-cut to me, and I don't see the grounds for applying IAR. IAR is supposed to prevent Wikipedia arriving at obviously incorrect or irrational conclusions, but that isn't the case here because BOM, The Numbers and IMDB all log it as a 2019 release, so there is some real-world precedence that concords with our naming conventions. Betty Logan (talk) 15:21, 9 April 2024 (UTC)

  Fair point. Interestingly for Superman II, AFI, BFI, and Metacritic list 1981, while AllMovie and RT list 1980. Because of the inconsistencies between films in similar situations, going by earliest notable release date to the public (at least when mainstream sources disagree) seems to make sense. -- GoneIn60 (talk) 17:20, 9 April 2024 (UTC)

• Leaning oppose, this being a "2020" film in every way that is meaningful to the typical Wikipedia reader. BD2412 T 18:56, 10 April 2024 (UTC)

  I think the typical Wikipedia reader values factual accuracy. - Forty.4 (talk) 13:52, 17 April 2024 (UTC)

• Support: Game had a public debut in 2019, it is foolish to ignore it because it "looks weird". Per what Betty Logan said above, most people only have seen The Exorcist in 1974, but it was certainly released in 1973. Andrzejbanas (talk) 15:03, 18 April 2024 (UTC)