Talk:Socialist Party (Italy, 2007, De Michelis)

Page contents not supported in other languages.
From Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Untitled[edit]

The name of this party was "Nuovo Partito Socialista Italiano" ("Nuovo PSI") and not "Partito socialista". See the Italian Wikipedia for reference. --Daviboz (talk) 12:58, 18 December 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Existence of this party[edit]

Does this party exist? There are sources that say this party and De Michelis went directly from Nuovo PSI to Italian Socialist Party (2007). This page should be deleted--Maremmano (talk) 21:42, 10 April 2014 (UTC)[reply]

This party, consisting of the faction led by De Michelis of the NPSI, existed for a few months before merging into the PS/PSI. Unfortunately, the article was based on mainly one source: the webiste of the party, which is no longer available. I will look for other sources. --Checco (talk) 20:56, 22 April 2014 (UTC)[reply]
But if it was only a faction of New PSI it wasn't a party. When De Michelis definitively abandoned the New PSI he directly joined to Socialist Party, he didn't found another Socialist Party--Maremmano (talk) 21:45, 22 April 2014 (UTC)[reply]
A party without any source cannot be considered encyclopedic. There aren't sources about the existence of two socialist parties in Italy in the period 2007-2008, I require a speedy deletion --Maremmano (talk) 12:53, 25 April 2014 (UTC)[reply]

Contested deletion[edit]

This page should not be speedily deleted because there are four (Italian language) references that refer to the organisation that the article is about, evidence to the fact the organisation existed.--Autospark (talk) 14:40, 25 April 2014 (UTC)[reply]

Which are the sources that show the existence of this party??? Also the user Checco has admitted that there aren't sources--Maremmano (talk) 14:55, 25 April 2014 (UTC)[reply]
There may be no further sources - the point is that an article shouldn't be speedily deleted unilaterally without going through the correct Wiki procedures.--Autospark (talk) 23:06, 26 April 2014 (UTC)[reply]
This is another matter, I am not pratical on this things, but the sources in the page don't talk about the party--Maremmano (talk) 12:51, 27 April 2014 (UTC)[reply]

We have the source we're looking for. The AfD should be closed and the article kept. --Checco (talk) 10:15, 28 April 2014 (UTC)[reply]

New title[edit]

I think that the established name Socialist Party (De Michelis) isn't a correct format. I think that a better name should be Socialist Party (Italy, 2007/II)--Maremmano (talk) 20:29, 3 July 2014 (UTC)[reply]

I understand your point, but the name you are proposing is quite unusual for en.Wiki, while I'm quite sure there are cases of parties identified in their article's name by the leader's name. "Socialist Party (Italy, 2007/II)" would not even be formally correct as this party was launched before the Socialist Party that later changed its name into Italian Socialist Party. [For outsiders: Socialist Party (Italy, 2007) is a much precious and irreplaceable redirect to Italian Socialist Party (2007), that is why it can't be used as destination for this article, as it would be obvious to do.] --Checco (talk) 09:50, 4 July 2014 (UTC)[reply]
Second proposal: "Socialist Party (Italy, 2007 – De Michelis)"?--Maremmano (talk) 08:51, 5 July 2014 (UTC)[reply]
Not bad as your first proposal, but the current name still looks better to me. --Checco (talk) 07:34, 7 July 2014 (UTC)[reply]
I think that for a party with a name such as "Socialist Party" the disambiguation with the country is really necessary--Maremmano (talk) 23:01, 7 July 2014 (UTC)[reply]
OK, I have no more objections on "Socialist Party (Italy, 2007 – De Michelis)". --Checco (talk) 07:18, 8 July 2014 (UTC)[reply]
No objections here either.--Autospark (talk) 12:13, 8 July 2014 (UTC)[reply]
Well, I move the page--Maremmano (talk) 21:23, 8 July 2014 (UTC)[reply]

Inappropriate Title[edit]

The title of this page is enough inappropriate, De Michelis wasn't the only leader of this political formation, Del Bue, too, was considered as leader. The disambiguation should concern a more precise date, a title such as Socialist Party (Italy, July 2007) would be certainly more appropriate --Wololoo (talk) 22:08, 10 January 2017 (UTC)[reply]

De Michelis was the main leader and the proposed name is not better than the current one, in my view. --Checco (talk) 23:06, 10 January 2017 (UTC)--Checco (talk) 23:06, 10 January 2017 (UTC)[reply]
In your view... but in Wikipedia the POW is not relevant. The sources say that the split was led by Del Bue and De Michelis, it is a fact. The disambiguation of a page like this can be made only with the date, the name of one of the two leaders is inappropriate --Wololoo (talk) 23:24, 10 January 2017 (UTC)[reply]
If there are no other objections I'll move the page, De Michelis was not the main leader and the current title doesn't respect the standards about disambiguations --Wololoo (talk) 10:35, 15 January 2017 (UTC)[reply]
I have changed the title of this page following the "Wikipedia:Naming conventions (political parties)", also "Socialist Party (Italy, July 2007)" (name proposed by myself) probably was not correct, because the precise date of foundation is uncertain (on 7-8 July Del Bue was elected secretary of the NPSI). Following the Wikipedia rules in certain cases the name of the leader can be used as disambiguation, so probably the most correct title for this page is "Socialist Party (Mauro Del Bue)".--Wololoo (talk) 19:53, 13 May 2019 (UTC)[reply]
Wikipedia:Naming conventions (political parties) are not entirely clear. The project page reads: "In some cases political parties can be differentiated by the name of their party leader [...]. This is useful when the date of establishment is unclear, or when a party splinters and each claims to be the continuation of an original party". The example is that of a party's name including the country's name. Why shouldn't be "Party name (country, leader)"? The project page does not say no.
This said, our case is different: a) the party's name does not include the country's name; b) the date of establishment is indeed clear (July 2007).
Back in 2014, I supported the "Party name (leader)" format and I agreed with User:Ymblanter's move to "Socialist Party (De Michelis)": De Michelis was the party's real leader and, by the way, there is no need to cite the leader's first name. However, I am now oriented toward something like "Socialist Party (Italy, De Michelis)" or keeping "Socialist Party (Italy, July 2007). In the meantime, waiting for consensus to be formed, let's go back to the latter name.
@User:Angelo.romano, User:Autospark, User:Braganza, User:Facquis, User:Holapaco77, User:Impru20, User:Nightstallion, User:Nick.mon, User:RJFF, User:Ritchie92, User:Wololoo and User:Ymblanter: Please have a say. I am proposing three options. More can be added. --Checco (talk) 10:48, 14 May 2019 (UTC)[reply]
De Michelis was the most important member, but the secretary (and so leader) was Mauro Del Bue. "Socialist Party (De Michelis)" would be wrong for another reason: De Michelis was the leader (secretary) of another Socialist Party (Socialist Party (Italy, 1996)). Also the date of foundation is not clear, indeed on 7-8 July 2007 Del Bue was appointed secretary of the PS-New PSI, but the source says that the agreement between the two factions was found on 23 June. Anyway the first name of the leader is not necessary and the country can be indicated, as well the year. --Wololoo (talk) 12:11, 14 May 2019 (UTC)[reply]
  • It's a "Summer beach party", founded on 7 July 2007 and dissolved on 5 October 2007 (3 months). Delete it. --Holapaco77 (talk) 13:50, 14 May 2019 (UTC)[reply]

Socialist Party (Italy, July 2007)[edit]

  • Support. --Checco (talk) 10:48, 14 May 2019 (UTC)[reply]
  • Oppose. It was originally proposed by me, but it is not clear if the party was born in June or July.--Wololoo (talk) 12:11, 14 May 2019 (UTC)[reply]
  • Support. Braganza (talk) 13:46, 14 May 2019 (UTC)[reply]
  • Support as a compromise; it has the nationality and year of foundation in its title, it's (IMO) the least-worst option.--Autospark (talk) 22:15, 14 May 2019 (UTC)[reply]
@Autospark @Braganza @Checco: How can you be so sure that this party was founded in July? I have put 7 July as the foundation date, but in that date Del Bue was appointed secretary of PS-NPSI. Another source says that the agreement between the two factions was found in June: the sources are contradictory, in reality the date of foundation is uncertain. If this page is kept autonomous, we cannot maintain a title that could probably be wrong, the title must provide reliable data (furthermore, "Wikipedia:Naming conventions (political parties)" does not even provide for the use of the month as disambiguation). --Wololoo (talk) 06:48, 15 May 2019 (UTC)[reply]
  • Support. Could it also be Socialist Party (Italy, summer 2007)? I support deletion, however (see below). Ritchie92 (talk) 09:25, 15 May 2019 (UTC)[reply]
"(summer 2007)" doesn't seem to me a correct disambiguation. I support the merge, but without the merge/deletion of the page it is necessary to find a title that conforms to the rules and even the current title doesn't seem to fully respect the rules (besides the fact that the month could be wrong).--Wololoo (talk) 20:29, 15 May 2019 (UTC)[reply]
No problem with "summer 2007"! --Checco (talk) 07:54, 16 May 2019 (UTC)[reply]

Socialist Party (Italy, Del Bue)[edit]

  • Support. --Checco (talk) 10:48, 14 May 2019 (UTC) I never agreed on this, the section's name was changed. --Checco (talk) 07:54, 16 May 2019 (UTC)[reply]
  • Oppose. If the country is indicated, the year should also be indicated.--Wololoo (talk) 12:11, 14 May 2019 (UTC)[reply]
  • Oppose. Ritchie92 (talk) 09:25, 15 May 2019 (UTC)[reply]
  • Weak oppose. Del Bue was not the party's leader. It was better to decide the format first, the discuss on the leader.--Checco (talk) 07:54, 16 May 2019 (UTC)[reply]

Socialist Party (Del Bue)[edit]

Socialist Party (Italy, De Michelis)[edit]

Socialist Party (De Michelis)[edit]

Socialist Party (Italy, 2007, Del Bue)[edit]

  • Support. It is a correct title, it contains the country, the year and the secretary. Anyway I also support "Socialist Party (Italy, 2007, Mauro Del Bue)".--Wololoo (talk) 12:11, 14 May 2019 (UTC)[reply]
  • Oppose. Ritchie92 (talk) 09:25, 15 May 2019 (UTC)[reply]
  • Weak oppose. Del Bue was not the party's leader. It was better to decide the format first, the discuss on the leader. --Checco (talk) 07:54, 16 May 2019 (UTC)[reply]
Del Bue was definitely one of the two leaders of the party, he was the secretary. Anyway, De Michelis can also be considered a leader of this "party".--Wololoo (talk) 08:20, 16 May 2019 (UTC)[reply]

Socialist Party (Italy, 2007, De Michelis)[edit]

  • Support. I prefer "Socialist Party (Italy, 2007, Del Bue)", but even this title could be good for me, following Wikipedia:Naming conventions (political parties) the ways to disambiguate more parties with the same name are in the order: country, year and leader. Technically the leader of this party was Mauro Del Bue, but even De Michelis could be considered one of the two leaders of the party.--Wololoo (talk) 20:29, 15 May 2019 (UTC)[reply]
  • Support. Probably the best option! --Checco (talk) 07:54, 16 May 2019 (UTC)[reply]

Further discussion[edit]

Comment Ugh, this is a difficult take indeed. This is an extreme situation where no solution would seem to work properly (there is already another Socialist Party (Italy, 2007), and I don't know if the party leaders can be notable enough to properly serve as an useful disambiguator). However, as Holapaco77 has pointed out, the party existed barely for three months, then merged into the PSI without contesting any actual election. Rather than having a discussion over a controversial name, possibly a merge into Socialist Party (Italy, 2007) as a section would be due instead? Impru20talk 14:59, 14 May 2019 (UTC)[reply]

@User:Impru20 I think this matter is more about the New Italian Socialist Party than the Italian Socialist Party (2007), and there is already a section in that page about it (New Italian Socialist Party#Caldoro vs. De Michelis). As already said by Holapaco77, this party barely existed, so this page is not necessary for me either. But if this page is kept autonomous, an appropriate title must be chosen (and should be chosen even if it were a redirect). The date of foundation is not clear (23 June or 7-8 July?), in my view the two possible titles/redirect are "Socialist Party (Del Bue/Mauro Del Bue)" or "Socialist Party (Italy, 2007, Del Bue)" (where the surname of the secretary is necessary to distinguish it from the main Socialist Party founded in that year).--Wololoo (talk) 20:18, 14 May 2019 (UTC)[reply]
@Wololoo: Well, then maybe the discussion should be on whether the page should be kept as is or merged within any other, and only if consensus is reached on that matter should we go to discuss what its title should be. I'm pretty much not seeing any consensus for the page to be left in its current status, and opinions about the necessity of a separate article on this topic seem to be converging towards the lack of it. If the article itself is not necessary, then the discussion on the title is a time-wasting effort. Impru20talk 20:24, 14 May 2019 (UTC)[reply]
@Impru20: I personally agree to merge the page within New Italian Socialist Party, but with or without a redirect to use on other pages?--Wololoo (talk) 20:38, 14 May 2019 (UTC)[reply]
@Wololoo: Redirects could be used, but it wouldn't be such a concerning issue: unlike an article title, you may use multiple redirects without having to use one over others, so all of the proposed titles could do the job if needed. Impru20talk 20:49, 14 May 2019 (UTC)[reply]
I think there is enough material to propose the deletion/merge of this article into New PSI and Italian Socialist Party (2007). --Ritchie92 (talk) 09:25, 15 May 2019 (UTC)[reply]

I would like to keep this article. I am an inclusionist and, especially in this case, having one more article instead of one less makes it easier for readers, who can easily navigate from one page to another, without getting confused and having to find information in another article. --Checco (talk) 06:24, 16 May 2019 (UTC)[reply]

@Checco: I would be more favorable to the merger, but I am not against maintaining the page, provided it has a correct title. The current title is not correct, unfortunately it seems to me that my reasons have not been read. The title should be changed according to the standards, otherwise it is better the merger.--Wololoo (talk) 07:41, 16 May 2019 (UTC)[reply]
Unfortunately, as someone already observed, there is no standard for our specific case. --Checco (talk) 07:54, 16 May 2019 (UTC)[reply]
@Checco: There is no precise standard, but "Wikipedia:Naming conventions (political parties)" lists the arguments to be used as disambiguation: Country, year and leader. No page of a party uses the month or the season as disambiguation, I was wrong to propose this title. "Socialist Party (Italy, 2007, De Michelis)" and "Socialist Party (Italy, 2007, Del Bue)" are probably the closest formats to the rules of Wikipedia. @Ritchie92, Braganza, and Autospark: (and others) what do you think about "Socialist Party (Italy, 2007, De Michelis)"?--Wololoo (talk) 08:20, 16 May 2019 (UTC)[reply]
The WP page does not exclude the "Party name (country, month year)" format. I think it is perfectly consistent with what is written there. My preferred choice is to keep "Socialist Party (Italy, July 2007)". My second choice would be a move to "Socialist Party (Italy, 2007, De Michelis)". My third choice would be "Socialist Party (Italy, 2007, Del Bue)". Let's agree on the format first, then, if relevant, we can discuss on the leader. --Checco (talk) 10:07, 16 May 2019 (UTC)[reply]
Second thoughts! While I think that "Socialist Party (Italy, July 2007)" is OK with WP rules, I slightly prefer "Socialist Party (Italy, 2007, De Michelis)". Sorry about this, but I was a little bit confused. I have to say that I agree with User:Wololoo's preference. --Checco (talk) 10:11, 16 May 2019 (UTC)[reply]

I don't oppose Socialist Party (Italy, 2007, De Michelis) Braganza (talk) 12:14, 16 May 2019 (UTC)[reply]

I didn't understand the last Checco's edit, 23 June is the only date attested by the sources, and the story is clearer and consistent in the current version (this party was born of a split from the PS-NPSI, not from the NPSI). Anyway, if there is no opposition on Socialist Party (Italy, 2007, De Michelis), tomorrow I will move the page.--Wololoo (talk) 13:08, 18 May 2019 (UTC)[reply]
@Checco and Braganza:: since you also agree on Socialist Party (Italy, 2007, De Michelis) as title and that no user consulted opposed it, I move the page. As I have explained several times, no source says that this party was founded in July, the only available source indicates the date of 23 June 2007, although then it continued to act as "Partito Socialista Nuovo PSI" (indeed this party has barely existed and probably it has never acted publicly under the name "Socialist Party"), therefore the redirect "Socialist Party (Italy, July 2007)" is objectively wrong and should be deleted.--Wololoo (talk) 20:15, 19 May 2019 (UTC)[reply]
OK for the move. However, the party was officially founded in July, during its founding congress. --Checco (talk) 06:11, 22 May 2019 (UTC)[reply]
Following the available sources, this party never had a real founding congress and continued to act under the name "Partito Socialista - Nuovo PSI" (and in any case the party was born from a split of the Ps-Npsi, not of the Npsi).--Wololoo (talk) 06:51, 22 May 2019 (UTC)[reply]

Proposal of merging[edit]

@User:Autospark, User:Braganza, User:Holapaco77, User:Impru20, User:Ritchie92, Checco: Sorry for the tag, but I see no sense in maintaining this useless page if its essential part is continually removed, that is that the PS was only the result of the division into two parts of the name of "Partito Socialista - Nuovo PSI" (clearly explained in the only source available): the user Checco is continuing obstinately to deny what is evident, as if the reality of the facts can be decided by a simple user and not by the sources. To put at least an end to the edit war on this useless page, I propose to merge it with New Italian Socialist Party#Caldoro vs. De Michelis, after all this party never really existed, De Michelis and Del Bue acted until the end on behalf of "Nuovo PSI", a stand-alone page is not necessary. I ask you to vote below between the two options.--Wololoo (talk) 20:46, 30 June 2019 (UTC)[reply]

Keep the page autonomous[edit]

  • Braganza (talk) 20:54, 30 June 2019 (UTC)[reply]
  • Autospark (talk) 14:30, 3 July 2019 (UTC)[reply]
  • Three points. First, the NPSI's name and common name has always been "New Italian Socialist Party" (not "Socialist Party – New PSI", also the PRC's symbol reads "Communist Party – Refoundation", but we have always adopted "Communist Refoundation Party"). Second, I oppose merging this article into the one on the NPSI: Wikipedia is great especially beacuse of this niche articles and, for the sake of readers, it is quite better to have distinct articles. Third, also for the sake of readers, this article should be easily linked in other articles, like Italian Socialist Party (2007) (where that link should stay in the infobox). --Checco (talk) 08:38, 6 July 2019 (UTC)[reply]
I don't understand the connection of your first point with the merging discussion (I specify: I don't understand the edit war that has been happening in the last weeks between Checco and Wololoo, and I am not an expert of the sources enough to try and resolute it, unfortunately). Also the third point is not really a point for not merging (I see it more as a point for merging, since the history of this unofficial "party" could be easily summarized in a subsection of one of the other articles, and the link from other pages could link to the subsection). So you are actually just saying you don't want to merge because you like small articles. --Ritchie92 (talk) 09:09, 6 July 2019 (UTC)[reply]
I just answered to what the proponent said. What he/she deems "clear" is actually inaccurate. That was my first point.
I am not edit warring. Along with User:Autospark, I am just defending the established versions of this article and the one on the NPSI. As I have said many times, when there is disagreement on a new edit, that edit can be discussed in talk page and, in the meantime, the established version should stay, per Wikipedia:Consensus. Additionally, "a lack of consensus commonly results in retaining the version of the article as it was prior to the proposal or bold edit". I do not see how all this can be difficult to understand. Hopefully, you will help me in moderating the discussion and defending established versions.
This said, yes, I am an inclusionist and I like small articles on small parties. This one, which included two MEPs, was instrumental in the foundation of the current-day PSI. My third point is that it is much easier for readers to keep track of mergers if there are distinct articles. I am not the only one opposed to the merger, fortunately. I would like to hear also the arguments of the other people, as I was the only to explain. --Checco (talk) 09:40, 6 July 2019 (UTC)[reply]
@Checco: from your intervention on the symbols it is clear that you have not understood (the name written in the symbol has absolutely nothing to do with this matter): in italian language, "Nuovo PSI" is certainly the most common name (and since 2007, the official one); "Partito Socialista - Nuovo PSI" was the official name until 2007, and in any case it was often used; "Nuovo Partito Socialista Italiano" has always been an unofficial (and rarely used) name. The English name chosen for that page is "New Italian Socialist Party", perhaps because more used in the few sources than "New PSI" (English name that is however used by Caldoro himself) or "Socialist Party - New PSI". Anyway, Having said that, here we are not talking about a little party, but about the result of an agreement, that provided for the division of the name "Partito Socialista - Nuovo PSI", for this reason the obstinate restoration of "New Italian Socialist Party" on this page makes no sense. However only one source talks about this agreement (I simboli della discordia), because publicly Del Bue and De Michelis continued to act on behalf of the New PSI until joining the Socialist Party of Boselli. A party that only existed a few months and that has never acted publicly under its name, can be safely explained on the NPSI page (in which name it acted): the sources reported that the New PSI of De Michelis and Del Bue joined the Socialist constituent assembly, not this "Socialist party".--Wololoo (talk) 20:24, 6 July 2019 (UTC)[reply]
What you do not realise is that the issue is about WP:CommonName and WP:Consensus. In Wikipedia "New Italian Socialist Party" was considered the party's most common name and was adopted as article's title before the supposed name change. As your bold edits have been opposed by at least two users, User:Autospark and I, you should seek consensus first, instead of insisting on unconsensual edits. --Checco (talk) 06:18, 8 July 2019 (UTC)[reply]

Merge into the NPSI page[edit]

Retrieved from "https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Talk:Socialist_Party_(Italy,_2007,_De_Michelis)&oldid=1173699950"