Talk:Revolutionary Party of Mozambique

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Did you know nomination[edit]

The following is an archived discussion of the DYK nomination of the article below. Please do not modify this page. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as this nomination's talk page, the article's talk page or Wikipedia talk:Did you know), unless there is consensus to re-open the discussion at this page. No further edits should be made to this page.

The result was: promoted by Yoninah (talk) 21:02, 26 December 2019 (UTC)[reply]

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  • ... that the Revolutionary Party of Mozambique was "mainly relying on stones" to fight its insurgency in the late 1970s and early 1980s? Source: "RENAMO soldiers described the Africa Livre combatants as operating in a 'rudimentary' manner, mainly relying on stones to fight FRELIMO" - Note that Africa Livre is an alternate name for the Revolutionary Party of Mozambique. (Weinstein, Jeremy W.; Francisco, Laudemiro (2005). "The Civil War in Mozambique. The Balance between Internal and External Influences". In Paul Collier; Nicholas Sambanis (eds.). Understanding Civil War: Africa. Evidence and Analysis, p. 178)

Created by Applodion (talk). Self-nominated at 16:38, 16 November 2019 (UTC).[reply]

  • ALT1 ... that the Revolutionary Party of Mozambique was initially relying on sticks, axes, machetes, and spears to fight its insurgency in the late 1970s? Source:in this article: "Au début, le PRM utilisait des bâtons, des haches, des machettes, des lances."


General: Article is new enough and long enough
Policy: Article is sourced, neutral, and free of copyright problems

Hook eligibility:

  • Cited: Yes
  • Interesting: Yes
  • Other problems: No - the hook is a quote which is intended to convey metaphorically how ineffective the rebels were - but by itself the hook seems to convey a literal meaning (ie they were fighting with stones) clarified
QPQ: Done.

Overall: I have some concerns about the content of the article in terms of clarity, further comment on the talk page. Goldsztajn (talk) 22:40, 16 November 2019 (UTC)[reply]

@Goldsztajn: I think you misunderstand the hook; there is nothing metaphorical here. They were literally fighting with stones. This conflict was fought in the hinterland of the hinterland of Mozambique, an isolated and extremely poor region. The PRM mainly joined RENAMO just to get access to guns. It is not unheard of that modern African insurgencies are fought with primitive weaponry - for example, the Arrow Boys, a militia in South Sudan, was named that way because they were fighting with bows and arrows against enemies armed with guns. Applodion (talk) 23:49, 16 November 2019 (UTC)[reply]
The source you cite for the hook mentions that the RPM/AL captured armaments. It's a disparaging statement made about the effectiveness of the RPM/AL. Personally, I would not draw any conclusions about the nature of Mozambique's civil war with examples from South Sudan, they are simply too disparate and involve radically different actors, environments and histories.--Goldsztajn (talk) 00:50, 17 November 2019 (UTC)[reply]
Mmmh. Ok, fair enough. I thought that providing a reliable source for such a statement would suffice. I withdraw the nomination of the article for DYK. Applodion (talk) 00:52, 17 November 2019 (UTC)[reply]
Apologies, I did not intend for you to withdraw this; I think there could be other hooks here. The trouble for me with this hook was that in checking the reference, the authors themselves provide no source or evidence to support the claim. It's innuendo/heresay... just because something is published in a reliable source doesn't mean we need to axiomatically treat it as fact. --Goldsztajn (talk) 01:24, 17 November 2019 (UTC)[reply]
@Goldsztajn: Hello! I just wanted to say that Sérgio Inácio Chichava also stated that the PRM used sticks, axes, machetes, and spears in this article: "Au début, le PRM utilisait des bâtons, des haches, des machettes, des lances." Taking this into account, I would say that my interpretation of the original source (as in, they used stones literally) was actually correct. Applodion (talk) 21:39, 18 November 2019 (UTC)[reply]
@Applodion:Pas de tout... there's no mention of stones (which would be pierres). Note the sentence starts with "In the beginning..." and then the next sentence mentions the capturing of guns, uniforms etc ("Petit à petit, il commença à voler des armes et des uniformes aux soldats, miliciens et policiers du Frelimo"). The merger with RENAMO doesn't happen until 1982 ... the "beginning" is 1977-78 ... so a difference of five years. This only reinforces that the original use was metaphorical, never literal. The comment about using stones was an indication of how ineffective the RENAMO people viewed the RPM/AL (not surprising given the nature of RENAMO and its scorched earth practices). Goldsztajn (talk) 22:31, 18 November 2019 (UTC)[reply]
I disagree, but I see your point. Nevertheless, as you said, we could try another hook. How about: ALT1 ... that the Revolutionary Party of Mozambique was initially relying on sticks, axes, machetes, and spears to fight its insurgency in the late 1970s? Applodion (talk) 22:42, 18 November 2019 (UTC)[reply]
This is unambiguous and is clearly present in the referenced text, have amended the review. Just need a QPQ ...Goldsztajn (talk) 23:33, 18 November 2019 (UTC)[reply]
@Goldsztajn: QPQ added. Applodion (talk) 15:40, 20 November 2019 (UTC)[reply]
@Applodion: for foreign language source (checked). GTG.Goldsztajn (talk) 23:57, 20 November 2019 (UTC)[reply]

General comments about artcle[edit]

@Applodion: Thanks for creating this article. I have some comments which relate to me downgrading the article to Start class. Hopefully you find these useful if you are continuing to work on the article.

1. Infobox - the 1982 merger into RENAMO should be in the infobox. I'm somewhat dubious about the ideology of democracy and freedom of religion...Mention of the UNAMO split should probably be here and in the lead.
2. Title - I'm somewhat uncertain that Revolutionary Party of Mozambique should be the title of the article. Perhaps it could be "Revolutionary Party of Mozambique - Africa Livre"? Part of my concern is that this was never really a party in any practical sense. Some sources simply term it a bandit group. But if it remains as is, a clearer explanation is needed around the use of Africa Livre. Some of the sources you have cited do not even mention the RPM. The Historical Dictionary of Mozambique gives an explanation of the various uses of the term Africa Livre.
3. Per WP:TRIBE, use of the term tribal should be avoided. Ethnic would be more suitable.
4. The structure of the article is weak. A simple structure could be: pre-independence, independence to 1982 merger into RENAMO, split from RENAMO, legacy.
5. The role of South Africa, Rhodesia and Malawi is simply missing from the article. There are multiple reliable peer-reviewed sources pointing to the active role of all governments in the 1970s and 1980s (obviously not Zimbabwe after 1979). Some suggest even PIDE was involved with Amos Sumane in the late 1960s. The 1998 Political Handbook is not appropriate here to justify a claim that the RPM/AL was independent.
6. I have not seen it yet, but The War Within. New Perspectives on the Civil War in Mozambique, 1976-1992 released last year has a chapter devoted to RPM/AL and looks to be the most informative text for this article (interview, in French, with the editors here).

Sources for my comments:

--Goldsztajn (talk) 00:27, 17 November 2019 (UTC)[reply]

@Goldsztajn: Thanks for these suggestions, but I knew all that already. I am in the process of developing the article. No offense, but this was nominated for DYK, not GA. Applodion (talk) 00:41, 17 November 2019 (UTC)[reply]
No offence taken. Nominating for DKY with some fairly inconsistent issues about the article seems premature ... I left my comments because you rated it as B class and I didn't feel that was accurate - I only wanted to provide justification for the reduction in the rating.--Goldsztajn (talk) 01:11, 17 November 2019 (UTC)[reply]

Use of Political Handbook of the World 1998 as a souce[edit]

@Applodion: - Hi, taking your reversion of my edit here. I removed the statement that PRM/AL "was not known to have any support from outside forces" drawing on the 1998 Political Handbook because it does not have any serious credibility. I didn't do this because of my opinion, I did this on the basis of two points:

1. the preponderance of sources from area specialists
2. Banks and Muller are generalist encyclopedia editors, not researchers and provide no source for their claim. (personally I suspect their error originates in their failure to understand that Africa Livre and the RPM are the same)

Let's examine peer-reviewed sources:

  • First, David Hedges[1], University of Eduardo Mondlande, Maputo, academic historian, writing on Mozambique and Southern Africa since late 1970s:

"In the north of Mozambique, beginning in 1977, acts of sabotage of a relatively minor nature began to be perpetrated by an organisation known as 'Africa Livre', based in Malawi." (p.635)
"In order to support the infiltration of bandits in the north of Mozambique, the South African regime began to use Malawi, by promoting the integration in the new armed bandit organisation of 'Africa Livre" (p.638)

  • Second, Paul Fauvet,[2] British journalist living in Mozambique since 1980:

"The former PIDE agents based in Malawi continued to strike across the border into Zambezia province, just as they had done during the liberation war. Now they linked up with former COREMO and UNAR members under the leadership of Amos Sumane for their sorties into the district of Milange. These bands would come to be known as 'Africa Livre'" (p.116)
"The most important strengthening of the MNR came about through negotiations with the COREMO/UNAR/Africa Livre bands operating out of Malawi."(p.118)

  • Third, Tom Young,[3] academic at SOAS, 20+ years teaching Southern African politics, co-author of Confronting Leviathan (key text on Mozambique in period 1975-1992)

"a small independent anti-Frelimo movement called Africa Livre operating near the town of Milange and almost certainly receiving some support from Malawi or at least certain elements within the Malawi government." (p.497) (NB: use of the term independent here is referring to the MNR).

  • Fourth, Colin Darch,[4] University of Capetown, Democratic Governance specialist:

"...there is no evidence that UNAMO is anything more than a separatist faction, based on ethnic resentments, nor that it has any kind of autonomous social or military base apart from private financing, allegedly through Malawi or Portugal."(p.38)

The clear preponderance of academic scholarship points to the RPM/AL being subsidised by external forces. It is simply WP:UNDUE to include an uncredited claim from non-specialists that states otherwise.

References

  1. ^ Hedges, David (1989). "Notes on Malawi-Mozambique Relations, 1961-1987". Journal of Southern African Studies. 15 (4): 617–644. ISSN 0305-7070.
  2. ^ Fauvet, Paul (1984). "Roots of Counter-Revolution: The "Mozambique National Resistance"". Review of African Political Economy (29): 108–121. ISSN 0305-6244.
  3. ^ Young, Tom (1990). "The MNR/RENAMO: External and Internal Dynamics". African Affairs. 89 (357): 491–509. ISSN 0001-9909.
  4. ^ Darch, Colin (1989). "Are There Warlords in Provincial Mozambique? Questions of the Social Base of MNR Banditry". Review of African Political Economy (45/46): 34–49. ISSN 0305-6244.

Regards, --Goldsztajn (talk) 15:14, 18 November 2019 (UTC)[reply]

Also, in the edit summary of your revert, you state Banks and Muller "is properly attributed" - but it's only properly attributed in your edit, but the claim by Banks and Muller is an unreferenced quote. I have no difficulty accepting tertiary source per WP:RS, in the simplest sense, but it is not appropriate when all other reliable sources contradict it and those sources are from far more reputable, qualified researchers.--Goldsztajn (talk) 15:46, 18 November 2019 (UTC)[reply]
Have managed to get a hold of The War Within: New Perspectives on the Civil War in Mozambique, 1976-1992 with Sérgio Chicava's chapter focussed on Zambezia. It supports the position that UNAR/RPM was getting external support. It also highlights the complexity regarding the name and Africa Livre.--Goldsztajn (talk) 16:43, 18 November 2019 (UTC)[reply]
@Goldsztajn: Thanks for your input! While I have access to all other sources you listed, I have not yet been able to get a hold of "The War Within". Could you perhaps add some information from that book to the article? This is just a request, of course - if you cannot do so, no problem! Applodion (talk) 21:42, 18 November 2019 (UTC)[reply]
From what I can see from a quick comparison, the chapter by Chichava is more or less the same text as the PDF of his in French you found. His text reinforces the highly localised nature of the RPM/AL. I'll also try to convert the French references you've used to the English version if you don't get a copy of the English version shortly.--Goldsztajn (talk) 23:14, 18 November 2019 (UTC)[reply]
No need for hurry. As you have probably noticed, I have not yet included all information from his French text anyway. Applodion (talk) 23:18, 18 November 2019 (UTC)[reply]
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