Talk:Punk ideologies

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"Punk ideologies are inherently libertarian"[edit]

Says who? If that was true, 95% of this article would make no sense. I'm a left wing punk and am not libertarian at all. Was Crass libertarian? Or Mensi of Angelic Upstarts? Or Johnny Ramone? I don't think so. --188.2.25.46 (talk) 12:11, 24 July 2020 (UTC)[reply]

  • Punk if was political (quiet numerous examples of apolitical punks have been observed trough the history, notably goths were notoriously apolitical as noted for example by communist regime secret police Stasi in Eastern Germany) - as not every band actually was political - was mostly anti-establishment. And establishments of the time in case of Western Europe and the USA happened to be mostly centrist parties. In case of USA and UK these were center-right parties (democrats and republicans in the USA, Labour Party and Conservatives in the UK) so being against them meant you could have been from quite a broad spectrum of political ideologies. You could have been far right and far left no matter how you define them in your country, you could have been of any libertarian leaning orientation too and still be anti-establishment. In Eastern Europe - the Soviet Union and satellite countries punks were against communist regimes that are a very far left regimes that committed many crimes and genocides in the past. Which did not mean any specific political orientation by itself - quite a broad spectrum of political orientations hates communism including numerous socialist leaning groups. Communist regimes were hating punk too. Communist propaganda was picturing punks as agents of Western Imperialism and Capitalism. Communist police was beating punks after concerts. Some of these bands from that area were incorporating Christian themes - being Christian was ant-establishment back then where communist regimes were imposing official atheism. Some were incorporating lyrics by 19th century poets of romanticism and independency insurgencies period of history of the region as rebellion against communist imposed internationalism and in case of Soviet Union russification of non-russian ethnic groups. Punk never been a political monolith. You could have seen bands where every member had different political views. It's mostly the music and it's rhythms, riffs and structures that was common denominator. Attempts on hijacking punk by any specific political group are laughable - to prove such attempts have any roots in reality you would need actual surveys across all the scenes in different parts of the world. No one ever did anything like that. 31.183.251.126 (talk) 04:25, 14 November 2021 (UTC)[reply]

This makes no sense[edit]

Who wrote this? It makes no sense of any kind. It should be deleted. Talking about the politics of an Art movement, is like talking about the viscosity of cheese. Please take this out.

  • Politics has played, and continues to play, a large role in the punk subculture. To deny that would be historical revisionism. I agree that the article could be vastly improved, but it definitely should not be deleted.Spylab 21:29, 6 October 2006 (UTC)Spylab[reply]
Yep. And it might make sense to talk about the viscosity of cheese. I mean, compare nacho cheese to melted swiss. Definitely some differences in viscosity there. Seriously though, punk is not an art movement, it is a cultural movement that includes art (mainly in the form of music, but also visual and written). It also inlcudes politics, lifestyle, language etc. And politics has played and continues to play a huge role in shaping the culture. Ungovernable ForceGot something to say? 06:23, 7 October 2006 (UTC)[reply]
According to my uncle, a (formerly professional) gourmet chef, the viscosity of varieties of cheese is actually very important. You wouldn't use brie with the same consistency as swiss. Similarly, the politics of the punk movement/subculture is very important. ~Switch t 08:56, 21 January 2007 (UTC)[reply]
Thirded. You can't separate punk from politics. The main difference between punk rock and other brands of rock is the socio-political message. NorsemanII 05:50, 29 September 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Punk did not start in the 70s[edit]

The term 'punk' was coined pre 70s and a definitive punk lifestyle grew around the situationists of the 50s before punk rock existed. This article focusses too much on the stereotypes of punk rather than what punk was really about. Difficult to define I know but one thing is for sure, Punk promoted dressing how you wanted, not by looking the fucking same as every other trendy "punk".

  • Any sources to back that up? How could there be a "punk lifestyle" before punk rock existed? The punk subculture got its name from punk rock.Spylab 21:35, 9 October 2006 (UTC)Spylab[reply]


Why then are The Ramones cited as punk even though The Sex Pistols were the first band to be labelled as punk rockers (emphasis being on The Pistols forming after The Ramones)? Bands such as Suicide and the Velvet Underground have been cited as punk yet by your logic that is impossible because they existed before the term was used in any culture. I believe that punk as a lifestyle existed before the exact term 'punk' existed, as punk is merely an amalgamation of various ethos's.


  • "Punk promoted dressing how you wanted, not by looking the fucking same as every other trendy "punk"." Really? A glaring exception to this post hoc "rule" is that the Sex Pistols were outfitted by Vivienne Westwood and the Ramones were famous for wearing Converse. Sounds pretty trendy to me.
  • And, yes punk did indeed start in the 1970s. Suicide and Velvet Underground are referred to as protopunk, another example of post hoc nonsense, meaning they were labeled as such long after the fact.

Important sections removed?[edit]

Didn't there used to be section on racism, sexism and homophobia? Those seem like important issues to address. Ungovernable ForceGot something to say? 04:35, 29 October 2006 (UTC)[reply]

I am writing an essay on poetry and the lyrics of punk. Talk about it if you want. I'll check back.

Moronic article[edit]

This article is worthless. 70s punk ideology is entirely different to American Hardcore bands' in the 80s... and everything varies from band to band. Some punk musicians were junkies, where as some hardcore musicians were straight edge.... where as some were neither particually anti-or pro drug use. Yet everything is just slapped together... into one big article of rubbish.

And this?...

"Punk music has evolved and mutated to create a diversity of sounds. Punks may enjoy the earthy harmony of folk-punk, the nostalgic (but often still relevant) anthems of 80s peace-punk and anarcho-punk, the more abrasive offerings of hardcore punk and its sub-genres (i.e. crust punk, grindcore, metalcore, thrash metal, power violence) or the raunchy, party hearty spirit of garage punk. In general, punk music is loud, fast, and usually didactic. The loud and fast sound is meant to express impatience, frustration, discontent, anger and aggression. Punks believe the state of popular music reflects the major record labels' influence on artists, as well as artists' own desire for recognition and wealth overshadowing their creativity."

Is a joke too. The article needs redirecting to punk rock. - Deathrocker 16:13, 24 November 2006 (UTC)[reply]

I am the bassist, vocalist, and head songwriter for a punk rock band. We are devoutly Marxist. My main question is, do you think it would be benefitial to do some specific sections with articles on specific punk rock political groupings, as opposed to just listing punks who are proposed to be parts of them?

Mr bassist, uhm being a punk marxist is an oxy moron, because punk is anti-corporatism and anti-government. And Marxism is ultimately controlled by the government (in the name of the people only). — Preceding unsigned comment added by 98.117.80.134 (talk) 05:30, 19 August 2011 (UTC)[reply]

This article is not about you and your band. Mitsos 13:12, 14 December 2006 (UTC)[reply]

This article may indeed be moronic, but...

If this article needs to be split into sections then it's neither moronic nor worthless, because it obviously has something to say. However, I don't think it needs to be split. Unless someone is willing to write a lengthy Wiki article on how punk and conventionally considered political/cultural ideologies are integrated (which I concede is probably feasible) then one article is better for concision.

Actually unless someone is willing to write a long article that makes it worth splitting this topic up then I don't really see why this part of the discussion page can't be deleted? — Preceding unsigned comment added by --NervousDave (talk) 23:02, 28 July 2011 (UTC)93.189.162.19 (talk) 22:47, 28 July 2011 (UTC)[reply]

Anarcho-capitalist punks?[edit]

I was in a hardcore punk band in the early 80's that was slightly popular and signed (I don't want to say the name). I always considered myself a pro-capitalist, anti-welfare, anti-government intervention, pro-individualism free market anarchist (or what is also called anarcho-capitalism). I wrote about half the lyrics and though they weren't explicitly pro-capitalist they had some anti-welfare state themes. Reviewers didn't seem to pick up on that though. Are there any bands that say they're pro-capitalist or anarcho-capitalist? It's hard for me to believe that all anarchist punks are communist. To me, punk is about individualism and rejection of societal control over the individual. I don't see anything punk at all about communism, which is the antithesis of individualism. Where are the capitalist punks?

You would probably do better in the "Libertarian" section, but you would have to say why you are if you want it to be in there, and it needs to be sourced to something other than this conversation (like the band or your website, as long as it can be established that it really is your's. Anyways, most anarchists (including myself) vehemently disagree with your claim as an "anarcho"-capitalist, as anarchism has historically been an anti-capitalist movement and philosophy. So that's why there aren't pro-capitalists in the anarchist section. And if you can't differentiate between the communism of anarchists and the communism of authortarian commies (like Marxists) then I suggest you read up some more on traditional anarchist writing like Goldman, Berkman, Kropotkin, etc. Also read The Politics of Individualism. That last statement comes across as condescending I think, but I wasn't trying to make it that way. Ungovernable ForceGot something to say? 07:54, 21 December 2006 (UTC)[reply]

I know the difference between anarcho-communism and state communism, thank you, and neither are individualist. That's why they're called "communist." "L. Susan Brown" is full of it. But again punk and anarchism to me are about individualism and self reliance. I don't see anything punk about living in a collective and depending on the community to take care of my needs. I can't think of anything more lame. "From each according to his abilities, to each according to his needs"? Sorry but I'm not responsible for the needs of anyone but myself. Individualism all the way, baby. Sure anarchism has historically been anti-capitalist, but rejecting tradition is what punk is all about. I don't care your tradition. No offense but I look at anarcho-communist "punks" as poseurs and followers and conformists.

Whatever. This isn't the place for this discussion anyway. All I will say is you don't understand what it's all about. Ungovernable ForceGot something to say? 04:58, 22 December 2006 (UTC)[reply]

Don't tell me I don't understand what it's about. I was there in the middle of it. Contrary to what you want to believe it was not about peace, love, sharing, and communism.

You are correct. Punk isn't really concerned with a specific position on any spectrum, but the core values of Punk put it squarely in opposition to Communism and the idea that Punk is specifically anti-Capitalist is nonsense. It was the hippy counter-culture movement that was anti-capitalist and punks were staunchly opposed to hippies. Most biker gangs, considered a form of Punk, are the definition of anarcho-capitalist (even if they don't always practise what they preach). These pages, like many on Wikipedia, are being edited and controlled by left-wing activists re-writing history to conform to their revisionist ideals. Remember, these are the same people who believe the Nazis were capitalists and that capitalism is a subset of Fascism (literally makes no sense). Literally every punk I know, if they have an opinion on capitalism vs communism, is pro-capitalist and anti-communist. Des22z (talk) 07:35, 6 August 2021 (UTC)[reply]

I was just reading over the talk page and, although I don't agree with capitalism, you do bring up a good point. But in my opinion you are being too blunt. You said you were a part of the scene, who else did you know in the scene was a capitalist? And, in what years were you active? What country/state? Those might be pretty important...(Honestly, I don't think anybody is even looking back at 2006 anyway..)--Ghostbear616 03:32, 3 September 2007 (UTC)[reply]

This section of talk makes an assumption that anything anti-capitalist is Communism. Please flip your heads out of conventional American political stereotypes for a second. If you want to be a capitalist punk, fine, crack on, but you're arguing that you're a pro capitalist because punk can't be communist, and it's a straw man argument. We're all a bit guilty of over-defining punk, and that's happening here. Pollythewasp (talk) 11:10, 16 August 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Right, looking at the article now I think this can be integrated into the 'conservatism and libertarianism' bit if it hasn't been already. If that's objectionable (I guess integrating conservatism and libertarianism may be) then separate it. However, I think this is a good move. Right-libertarianism is poorly explained here anyhow. - -NervousDave (talk) 23:13, 28 July 2011 (UTC)[reply]

I think where both the capitalist and the communist punks above both get it wrong. Punk is not anti-capitalist in the truest sense but anti-corporatism (which as bastardized version of true free market capitalism that either buys favors, controls or is in league with government) and is anti-government. So true punk ideology is neither right-wing or left-wing or anti-capitalism or pro-communism, but is again anti-corporatism (basterdised capitalism)and anti-government. True Punk is against authoritarianism, rather that is corporate or government authoritarianism, and is for individualism in the extreme, not communal, so it fits in neither the so-called anarco-communism or the authoritarian communism.

Also, Ungovernable Force, read Murray Rothbard, Lew Rockwell and Ron Paul to understand anarcho-capitalists, and you will understand that anarcho-capitalists are pro true free market individualist capitalists not the bastardized version called corporatism that so many in the west know as capitalism today. ~ me — Preceding unsigned comment added by 98.117.80.134 (talk) 05:47, 19 August 2011 (UTC)[reply]

Do we really need all these tags????[edit]

What do you think? Mitsos 20:37, 9 January 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Links to songs[edit]

Some non-american bands would be nice... Actually, other bands than Bad Religion, NOFX, Dead Kennedys + friends would be nice.

--Yeah awhile ago I added some Rise Against songs but for some reason some stupidass deleted most of them. - Razorhead March 29 2007

Irrelevant for discussion. If you want non-American bands it's very easy to add them. --NervousDave (talk) 23:14, 28 July 2011 (UTC)[reply]

" Aristasians "[edit]

Does anybody even take them seriously? Why include their criticism here. I could make up a funny religion, and criticize everything for failing to live up to it... would that make it notabl? I could include Frank Chu's Criticism of Punk somewhere, with stuff about punk being a zegnatronic conspiracy to destroy all mankind.

Now, that would be funny. Joie de Vivre 00:41, 22 May 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Deletion of James Dean Bradfield[edit]

Why does the reference to James Dean Bradfield from the Manic Street Preachers, in the subject socialist/communist punks, keeps getting removed? He was an outspoken and notable punk, in politics and lifestyle, in the 90's his and his bands music could also be classified as punk, though they steerd away from their punk orgins since the release of their album the Holy Bible. But the Manics reported that there new album is grasping back at its punk roots. Although the Manics may be considered an alternative rock band, it doenst leave out the fact that they once where punk. And if thats not a enough to list him, then i think ex-punks like Garry Bushell should be removed too.

As from the political standpoint, James Dean was a open supporter for Scargill's Socialist Labour Party, writes straight forward controversial political lyrics (even more straight forward then most punks mentioned here), and is a vivid admirerer of Cuba and Fidel Castro. The Manics can be seen as the most popular and most outspoken pro-communist punkformation in existance today, and James Dean as their vocalist and writer, that should be noted under the the subject of socialist/communist punks.

Thanks

--ddxt301 13:13, 16 April 2007 (UTC)[reply]

  • You should probably add some of that information to the James Dean Bradfield article, because the only two mentions of the word punk in that article is are a sentence saying he liked the Clash, and in a sentence that says his band had "punk beginnings," but which does not elaborate on what those beginnings were. Spylab 13:47, 16 April 2007 (UTC)[reply]

For the editor who added the "Criticisms of punk ideology" section, in January of 2006[edit]

It's a long shot, I know.

This announcement is for the person who made this edit to Punk ideologies. The edit created the Criticisms of punk ideology section, and included a reference to Aristasian criticism of punk ideology.

To concerned parties: the Miss Martindale article has been nominated for deletion. As this editor seemed to be knowledgable on this topic, I invite them to weigh in with a vote. Thanks! Joie de Vivre 00:38, 22 May 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Conservative Punk = Oxymoron[edit]

Conservative Punks? Rather ironic. If you call yourself a "right-wing punk" not only does that make no sense, but it labels that individual as a poser. I dont care who says "I'm a captialist punk", THERE STILL IS NO SUCH THING. The only reason alot of punks are assoicated with left wing is because they understand the lesser of two evils. Conservativepunk.com is one of the most ridiclous websites i have ever seen. the only "conservative punks" there are, are the punks that also made the genre, Christian Punk. This is why punk rock is on the radio now, its people like them that, ruined such a great music scene for the rest of us.

Is it really that important? It's an aesthetic style, not a religious doctrine. But before we get carried away...

This doesn't really seem like the proper forum for this sort of discussion, but for sake of defending the article, I wish to address your concerns. Libertarian "capitalism" is left-wing, statist capitalism is right-wing. Read "Left and Right: The Prospect for Liberty" by Murray Rothbard. Also look into the writings of the left-libertarians such as Roderick T. Long and SEK3. ConservativePunk (the website) incorrectly conflates conservatism and libertarian "capitalism." Allixpeeke 04:53, 14 September 2007 (UTC)[reply]
And since the terms "captialist" and "capitalism" have existed in several forms for centuries, and since Marx coined the term in context of an economic/class system designed to describe communism, the term really doesn't mean anything. And "libertarian" is simply a modern way of expressing classical liberalism, which has nothing to do with left or right as few governments actually practice it. Agreed this conversation is off-topic, but probably more so because the terms "left" and "right" and "conservative" and "liberal" have become so muddied and confused rather than because of any sentimental notions of punk ideology. 173.59.224.169 (talk) 17:43, 9 January 2010 (UTC)[reply]

There's astounding inaccuracy here. Punk is reliably subdivided between an aesthetic art form and a form of political expression. Not saying I agree with conservative punk, but there's no place in WPedia for not acknowledging this diversity.

Libertarianism is left and right. Libertarian capitalism is certainly not left-wing, and nor is state capitalism right wing. Left and right are far more heavily associated with economic than political ideology, but if anything left and right are better interpreted as reversed from what Allixpeeke suggests. That's kind of irrelevant though. As long as there are noteworthy movements then these things should be acknowledged. I personally vehemently disagree with any conservative interpretation of punk, but as long as others disagree, then it needs recording here. --NervousDave (talk) 00:28, 29 July 2011 (UTC)[reply]

All References to Libertarian Punks have been Purged from this Article[edit]

It appears all references to libertarian punks, and even their very existence, have been purged from this wikipedia article. The purge has been made by Spylab.

I will argue below that this purge was unnecessary, and indeed detrimental to the article as a whole. Hopefully you will find my reasoning convincing.

Let me begin by saying that I don't mean by anything I say below to imply that Spylab has purposely done anything wrong. I believe it was an accident on his part to purge libertarianism from this article, and I remain confident that the arguments I provide below will be found by him/her to be convincing and reasonable.

First, a section of this article had previously stated that libertarian punks claim XYZ. Spylab removed this, stating, "deleted innacurate claim that was only supported by a totally biased source."

Whether you believe XYZ is accurate or not is irrelevant. The fact remains that libertarian punks, whether accurately or inaccurately, do claim XYZ. Thus, there is no reason that the article should not let it be known that libertarian punks claim XYZ.

Whether or not the source of the claim is biased or not is also irrelevant. Socialist punks claim ABC. But any sources about ABC will invariably be biased toward the socialist punk view. Likewise, neo-Nazi "punks" claim FGH. But any sources about FGH will invariably be biased toward the neo-Nazi "punk" view. Whether or not the perspective is biased is irrelevant because such claims can be nothing but biased.

Here's how we should deal with bias. If, for example, a wikipedia article claims that "Bush is a good president," that article would be clearly biased, and would need to be edited, no matter what source one uses to back it up. However, if a wikipedia article claims that "John Brown claims Bush to be a good president," then despite how biased John Brown is, the claim about John Brown is accurate, and is thus not biased.

Although the libertarian punk claim of XYZ may be biased, and although the source, which was written by libertarian punks, may be biased, the claim that "libertarian punks claim XYZ" is not biased.

That was the first edit Spylab made. Subsequently, he made an edit to a different section of the wikipedia article, a section which also mentioned libertarian punks.

The section had stated, essentially, A) that libertarian punks exist, B) what libertarian punks generally believe, and C) some examples of libertarian punks.

Spylab deleted this entire section, stating, "deleted claims that weren't backed up by reliable neutral sources."

The claim that libertarian punks exists was backed up by, in part, sources that were written by libertarian punks. Such sources do not need to be neutral. All that is needed for the source to demonstrate that libertarian punks exist is for a source to have been written by libertarian punks, regardless of the neutrality or lack thereof of said libertarian punks.

The claim that libertarians believe LMNOP was backed up by a libertarian essay. Again, neutrality is irrelevant. The source clearly backed up claim that libertarians believe LMNOP, regardless of whether LMNOP is someone one ought to or ought not believe in. Further, the fact that the essay was written by the preeminent libertarian theorist of the 20th century indicates that it is a very reliable source for discerning what it is libertarians do believe. Again, whether or not libertarians are accurate in their beliefs is irrelevant.

Finally, the examples of libertarian punks were backed up by very reliable sources. Two specific examples were cited in the article: Billy Joe Armstrong and the Yellow Day Brigade. Now, whether you want to argue to the effect of whether or not Armstrong is actually punk is up to you. The point remains that he is a registered Libertarian. As to whether the Yellow Day Brigade are libertarian or not, this is back up by their own writing. Is the writing biased? Of course, it's biased to the libertarian viewpoint; but once again, that is irrelevant, because the fact remains that the source does, indeed, indicate that they, the band that authored the source, are libertarian.

Therefore, it stands to reason that it was unnecessary to remove any of this information from the wikipedia article.

But worse than that, the removal of this information has actually hurt the article. For, now, the article no longer acknowledges the existence of libertarian punks. This egregious oversight makes the article appear incomplete. Likewise, this lack of acknowledgement biases the reader into believing that libertarian punks do not exist.

For these reasons, I am re-instating the text which Spylab has removed. If Spylab still has any complaints with regard to how the text referencing libertarian punks appears in this article, I recommend he address those complaints here (so that they can be discussed, and some compromise reached) rather than to simply edit them back out again.

Respectfully yours,

Allixpeeke 03:16, 6 October 2007 (UTC)[reply]

  • It is clear that you have a specific agenda, in terms of promoting your personal definition of Libertarianism. That is not what Wikipedia is for. It is for presenting factually accurate information backed up by reliable sources. The claims you have added to this article are neither factually accurate, nor supported by reliable references. Therefore I have removed them again.Spylab 20:45, 7 October 2007 (UTC)[reply]
I must disagree with you, Spylab. From what I have observed as a neutral editor, Allixpeeke had given concrete reasons and evidence on his edits, while you personally attacked him and removed cited sources without regard. I'll revert your removals until you explain your edits. Aran|heru|nar 05:42, 10 November 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Point-by-point explanation[edit]

  • "Despite the association that punk ideologies have with the left wing, some punks perceive the efforts of leftists as ineffectual, and sometimes just as objectionable as the right wing—this claim is most commonly associated with libertarian punks."<ref>"rationalheardcore explained," ''Rationalheardcore Times'', volume 1, issue 1, page 2-3, Fall 2006</ref><ref>"A Rational Look at 'Punk Ideology'," ''Rationalheardcore Times'', volume 1, issue 2, page 3, Winter 2006/2007</ref>

There are no reliable, neutral references proving the dubious claim that the point of view is "most commonly associated with libertarian punks." The only references are two issues of a totally biased POV-pushing zine (and we can't even see the actual text of the zine because it's not online). Therefore, the factually-inaccurate claim has no place on Wikipedia.

  • "Although they do not reject capitalism per se, they do reject statist capitalism and social conservatism, and apply the same laissez-faire approach to the economy that is applied by punks to social life."<ref>For an explanation of libertarianism's connection to the left-wing: Rothbard, Murray N., [http://www.mises.org/story/910 "Left and Right: The Prospects for Liberty"], ''[[Left and Right: A Journal of Libertarian Thought]]'', volume 1, issue 1, pages 4-22, Spring 1965</ref>

The reference doesn't mention punk at all, so it doesn't back up the claim being made, and has no place in this article, which is about notable ideologies in the punk subculture.

  • I made Libertarianism a separate section than Liberalism because there is a debate about the different meanings of both words, in different time periods and locations, and they are not always compatible.
  • I deleted the message "(See also: minarchism, left-libertarianism, and agorism.)" because that message has nothing to do with punk, and is just a way to promote traffic to those articles.
  • "- There are also a number of classical liberal or libertarian punks. Examples of libertarian punks would include Billie Joe Armstrong<ref>Winter, Bill, [http://www.theadvocates.org/celebrities/billie-joe-armstrong.html "Billie Joe Armstrong - Friend of Liberty"], [[Advocates for Self-Government]]''</ref> the anarcho-capitalist and the band The Yellow Day Brigade.<ref>[http://www.angelfire.com/indie/phoenixheart/theyellowdaybrigade.html "The Yellow Day Brigade"], accessed 14/9/2007</ref><ref>"The Y.D.B. sets them straight," ''Rationalheardcore Times'', volume 1, issue 1, Fall 2006, page 1</ref> ''

I deleted the first sentence because it is basicly meaningless and has no reference. What is "a number"? Is it hundreds, dozens, five? With the second sentence, nothing in the (very biased) reference shows that Billie Joe Armstrong is an "anarcho-capitalist", just that he was registered as a Libertarian Party voter in California. I unlinked The Yellow Day Brigade because there is no Wikipedia article with that title.Spylab 17:59, 11 November 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Spylab writes, "and we can't even see the actual text of the zine because it's not online."
You can see the text of the 'zine here: http://www.angelfire.com/indie/phoenixheart/rationalhardcoretimes.html
Spylab writes, "The reference doesn't mention punk at all, so it doesn't back up the claim being made, and has no place in this article, which is about notable ideologies in the punk subculture."
Is there any disagreement about the truth behind the statement "Although [libertarian punks] do not reject capitalism per se, they do reject statist capitalism and social conservatism, and apply the same laissez-faire approach to the economy that is applied by punks to social life"?
Regardless of whether one agrees or not as to whether there is a distinction between statist capitalism and libertarian capitalism, I think we can all agree that it is a true statement that libertarian punks see a difference, and proceed to advocate one while not the other.
Regardless of whether one likes or dislikes social or cultural conservatism, I think we can all agree that it is a true statement that libertarian punks reject social or cultural conservatism, reject the social order of control.
And regardless of whether one likes or dislikes the laissez-faire, hands off approach to economic life, I think we can all agree that it is a true statement that libertarian punks favour laissez-faire economics, believing that the same hands-off approach that they apply to the other individuals in society is equally applicable to the trades people make with one another.
Libertarian punks see themselves as carrying on a pure punk culture which defies the rules and norms of society. The libertarian punk is a person who abhores the idea of one man placing a gun against the head of another and saying, "Do it my way or die," and sees this action being committed with every use of aggression. It is this aggression, the libertarian punk will maintain, that propels the authoritarian norms present in society. The goal of the libertarian punk: opposition to aggression in all its manifestations, and the liberation of the members of society. The libertarian punk is a person who would maintain that this is what punk is all about.
Of course none of this was discussed in the end note. The end note wasn't about libertarian punk per se, but rather about libertarianism itself. It was written before the punk phenomenon, and gives a good background to the libertarian philosophy and its history, which is in turn useful to anyone who wishes to see the roots of libertarian punk.
If you don't believe the end note really adds anything to the article, I can be persuaded to agree. But I cannot really be persuaded that the explanation of the libertarian punk philosophy is not relevant, or that it should have been removed.
Spylab writes, "I made Libertarianism a separate section than Liberalism because there is a debate about the different meanings of both words, in different time periods and locations, and they are not always compatible."
Perfectly acceptable.
Spylab writes, "With the second sentence, nothing in the (very biased) reference shows that Billie Joe Armstrong is an 'anarcho-capitalist', just that he was registered as a Libertarian Party voter in California."
It was supposed to read, "Billie Joe Armstrong and the anarcho-capitalist band The Yellow Day Brigade." Sorry for any confusion. I agree that there's no evidence that Armstrong is an anarcho-capitalist, Yellow Day Brigade has openly advocated anarcho-capitalism.
I'm going to re-add the paragraph describing libertarian punk philosophy, but leave out the end note. I think that's an acceptable compromise. (If you disagree, I'll be happy to listen to an explanation as to why.)
But I won't at this time re-add this sentence: "Despite the association that punk ideologies have with the left wing, some punks perceive the efforts of leftists as ineffectual, and sometimes just as objectionable as the right wing—this claim is most commonly associated with libertarian punks."
Perhaps some sort of compromise can be found here as well. How about "—this claim can be associated with libertarian punks"? Or perhaps we could even name a number of different punk ideologies which would agree with the claim that "the efforts of leftists [i]s ineffectual, and sometimes just as objectionable as the right wing." (Although, honestly, libertarian punk is the only one that jumps to mind, which is why I personally lean toward "can be associated with libertarian punks.")
Let me know what you think. I'm open to ideas and to compromise on this sentence.
Respectfully,
Allixpeeke (talk) 07:57, 19 November 2007 (UTC)[reply]


  • The sentence "Although [libertarian punks] do not reject capitalism per se, they do reject statist capitalism and social conservatism, and apply the same laissez-faire approach to the economy that is applied by punks to social life" is not backed up by any references, so at this point it is original research. The belief that both the left and right are ineffectual and/ objectionable can be associated with various types of punks. No evidence has been presented that the concept is specifically associated with libertarian punks. This article is about notable ideologies that have been present in the punk subculture. So far, no evidence has been provided that libertarian punks are a significant group that is even worthy of mention. The only facts that have been verified is that one member of Green Day was registered as a Libertarian Party voter in California, and some band that doesn't even have its own Wikipedia supports anarcho-capitalism.Spylab (talk) 02:25, 20 November 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Deleted the last sentence in the Criticisms section.[edit]

May it be replaced by something grammatically correct and objective. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 24.168.94.97 (talk) 00:58, 29 November 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Hacktivism[edit]

I removed the sentence: 

Hacktivism has become an additional method of sabotage (no it hasn't).

as it was not encyclopedic at all. If you want to dispute a statement, put a {{fact}} tag after it. As it stands, this article is in need of citations, but I don't know enough about punk rock to do it myself. Richard Jackson (talk) 16:00, 14 July 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Political Bias[edit]

I separated social liberalism from socialism and communism, since these were lumped together as "leftist ideologies". That may be the point of view in US Republican circles, but in much of the world social liberalism is viewed as mainstream, in the centre of the political spectrum. To avoid bias, I've rephrased the sentence as "...associated with social liberalism or leftist ideologies such as socialism and communism" since socialism and communism are clearly left wing, while social liberalism is not. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 156.34.35.54 (talk) 01:05, 13 January 2009 (UTC)[reply]

  • The reoccurring problem in understanding the punk and skinhead ideology is the forms of government from left wing to right wing. To “Barney” this; extreme right wing= No government. Extreme left wing= total government. (Nunyo) — Preceding unsigned comment added by 68.140.70.21 (talk) 09:29, 27 May 2012 (UTC)[reply]

To anonymous IP: your comment about Left–right politics is factually incorrect.Spylab (talk) 12:47, 27 May 2012 (UTC)[reply]

Conservatism[edit]

"Conservatism" is an exceptionally biased article, really could use some objectivity.

Pacifism[edit]

What about a section on pacifist punks? They differ quite much from mainstream pacifism in that they often support violence in self defence as well as violence against inanimate objects. // Liftarn (talk) 12:13, 27 February 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Pacifism is a particular set of beliefs, it doesn't change because you're a punk. Anti-war punks may be worth mentioning as distinct from 'pacifists' and as an extension of liberal/socialist/anarchist/libertarian ideologies, but not a re-definition of pacifism.

Although that said, some punks are actually pacifist, that might be worth a mention. --80.73.208.87 (talk) 08:41, 29 July 2011 (UTC)[reply]

The lede[edit]

The lede, as currently written, contains a number of disjointed statements that do not flow well, they are also opinions, not statements of fact, and are not necessarily supported by text of the article itself. The paragraph about "selling out," in particular, reads like some editor's opinion. The lede does not necessarily have to have references, according to MOS, but it should not make statements that are not supported by sourced content in the body of the article. ---RepublicanJacobiteThe'FortyFive' 18:50, 15 February 2011 (UTC)[reply]

Anarchism and Nazism should be removed from the left-wing and right-wing sections respectively[edit]

The anarchy article states that anarchy is anti-state so it can not be left-wing. And Nazism is National Socialism and controlled corporations and private business (wasn't run by it), so it is technically left wing in the modern vernacular. 98.117.80.134 (talk) 06:14, 19 August 2011 (UTC)[reply]

Nazism is a form of conservatism, which has always historically endorsed some form of state control over the market. Anarchism has clear historical roots in the socialist movement, going back to Proudhon and also Bakunin and the 1st international.

Liberalism however WAS in the wrong place, it is a capitalist ideology.

Bonsai Ent (talk) 02:51, 12 January 2012 (UTC)[reply]

  • ...and yet both Anarchy (far right wing) and Nazi (far left wing) are political in nature, hence an ideology. The punk movement became an outlet for youths who felt big government was too overwhelming for their voices to be heard. Nuclear annihilation, taxation, welfare programs, and (for most of us young-rebellious types;) plain rejection of authority and the futile attempt at non-conformity. Expression via fashion, rebellious behavior, and music was the obvious outlet. The reoccurring problem in understanding the punk and skinhead ideology is the forms of government from left wing to right wing. To “Barney” this; extreme right wing= No government. Extreme left wing= total government. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 68.140.70.21 (talk) 09:27, 27 May 2012 (UTC)[reply]

Dear anonymous IP user: you are very confused and mistaken about the left-right political spectrum, the punk and skinhead subcultures and politics in general. Your comment is not based in facts.Spylab (talk) 12:42, 27 May 2012 (UTC)[reply]

Libertarianism should be removed from the right wing heading.[edit]

Libertarianism cannot be accurately described as right or left. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 24.36.114.107 (talk) 00:59, 14 February 2012 (UTC)[reply]

The liberatarianism being referred to in this article is the North American conservative, capitalist form of libertarianism, so it is accurately described as right wing.Spylab (talk) 12:44, 27 May 2012 (UTC)[reply]

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Was really Dee Dee Ramone a conservative?[edit]

Since a while, I've seen Dee Dee Ramone supposedly to be a staunch conservative in his Wikipedia page, and he figures as a conservative in here too. It's known Johnny Ramone was a conservative because his speech on Rock and Roll Hall of Fame, as well a lot of people corroborating that, but the only source that confirms Dee Dee was a conservative is an interview to Marky Ramone in which he states that. However, it's also known Marky had a fewd with another bandmates, like Joey and CJ, the latter being categorized as a "bigot" by him. So I think that Dee Dee wouldn't be a conservative but an apolitical.

--Paburo fg 00 (talk) 01:58, 7 January 2021 (UTC)[reply]

Wiki Education assignment: Introduction to Communication Studies[edit]

This article was the subject of a Wiki Education Foundation-supported course assignment, between 22 August 2022 and 2 December 2022. Further details are available on the course page. Student editor(s): Thometo (article contribs). Peer reviewers: Katietaylor22, KHackk.

— Assignment last updated by CommDocBDS (talk) 12:20, 11 November 2022 (UTC)[reply]

Confused Introduction[edit]

Is it just me or is the introduction wildly confusing? Seems to read that punks are pro-gentrification, which I somehow doubt Ceaceacea (talk) 20:21, 31 May 2023 (UTC)[reply]

"Nazi Punks Fuck Off" mentioned in conservative punk[edit]

I believe we need to edit this. The Dead Kennedys didn't write that to attack conservative punks as a whole, but rather at the members of groups like the National Front that started to attend their concerts and become ironic fans due to them missing the satire of "Kill the Poor". --86.11.247.35 (talk) 16:17, 11 June 2023 (UTC)[reply]

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