Talk:Persona Q: Shadow of the Labyrinth

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Good articlePersona Q: Shadow of the Labyrinth has been listed as one of the Video games good articles under the good article criteria. If you can improve it further, please do so. If it no longer meets these criteria, you can reassess it.
Article milestones
DateProcessResult
June 27, 2018Good article nomineeNot listed
October 18, 2021Good article nomineeListed
Current status: Good article

Source[edit]

GAN push[edit]

Hi! I'd like to take the article to GA status. I've done a bit of a walkthrough, and I don't think it's super far from the criteria - would this be ok? Just looking through the first GA review to see if there is anything else outstanding from those comments. I'll do a little bit more cleanup - is there anything that is crying out for attention before an eventual nom? Best Wishes, Lee Vilenski (talk • contribs) 13:11, 27 January 2021 (UTC)[reply]

I say go for it. This is pretty much the exact situation as Xenoblade 2 a few weeks back. Sergecross73 msg me 13:38, 27 January 2021 (UTC)[reply]
I assumed as much, but always worth asking the major contributors. Best Wishes, Lee Vilenski (talk • contribs) 13:53, 27 January 2021 (UTC)[reply]

GA Review[edit]

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Reviewing
This review is transcluded from Talk:Persona Q: Shadow of the Labyrinth/GA2. The edit link for this section can be used to add comments to the review.

Reviewer: Shooterwalker (talk · contribs) 18:37, 27 September 2021 (UTC)[reply]


I'll add this one to my to-do list. It might take me through this weekend to find time, but hopefully sooner. Try to reach me if for some reason I forget. Shooterwalker (talk) 18:37, 27 September 2021 (UTC)[reply]

Going to start with the body and see how far I get.

Gameplay
  • The first sentence in the gameplay section needs a lot of work. It's really two fragments joined together by "and", where it could be more grammatical just to use a full stop and separate them. You also mention the developer but you haven't introduced the developer yet.
  • Following that, you want to give the player a broad sense of the game before you start getting into the details of how healing or character selection works.
    • Added a little bit of information. We've already covered it being a dungeon crawler, so just a bit more info has been added Best Wishes, Lee Vilenski (talk • contribs) 09:07, 7 October 2021 (UTC)[reply]
  • "progresses" -> "explores" might be more plain and clear
  • If you mean "floor" in the sense of a level and not in the sense of the ground, there might be a clearer way to explain the vertical layout.
  • "the percentage of tiles the player has stepped on is listed." -> "the game displays the percentage of tiles the player has stepped on." (avoid passive voice, as it's less clear)
  • "player battles against them using their Personas, which can attack enemies and heal allies." -> I know this is obvious to anyone familiar with the game and the series, but you don't explain to outside readers what a Persona is.
  • The last sentence of the gameplay section isn't clear either, probably due to some undefined terminology from the game.
    • Reworded to avoid the jargon and just say powerful and combining more than one character. Best Wishes, Lee Vilenski (talk • contribs) 09:07, 7 October 2021 (UTC)[reply]


Plot
  • "The game's story is split into two campaigns, which follow either the team of characters from Persona 3 or Persona 4 " -> "The game's story is split into two separate campaigns for each of the Persona 3 and 4 teams, starting part way through the events of the previous games."
  • Terms like "Investigation Team" and "Specialized Extracurricular Execution Squad" should be explained. Who created them and why?
  • "and two doors appear that lead to different times" -> "with two doors that lead to different time periods"
  • "Discovering a labyrinth hidden below the school, the two groups meet amnesiac students Zen and Rei and decide to explore the area, fighting "shadows" along the way, in order to restore their memories (as they do not know how they got to the school) and hopefully find a way to escape." -> "The two groups discover a labyrinth below the school, where amnesiac students Zen and Rei need help restoring their memories of how they became trapped in the school. The students team up to find a way to escape, fighting "shadows" along the way."
  • The second paragraph is basically grammatical, but it's a tough read. I'm not sure how much of that is because the game is too fantastical to understand. Did Zen know he was Chronos, or did he destroy his own memory for some reason? Did he do anything to try to bring her happiness, or did he mainly just erase her bad memories? I'm not sure how to help this. It's possible that the second paragraph should be split, with one paragraph explaining the characters, and the other explaining how the events unfold in the game.
    • It is a tough read, but it's also a tough plot! So (as far as I remember it), Chronos splits himself in two, Zen and Clockwork God to give happyness to the dead girl (yeah, it's a bit silly). He seals their memories away. The game is set where the Clockwork God brings all the characters in to try and get Zen to regain the memories so he can become Chronos again. I'm not sure that I have the will in me to try and make more sense of that! Best Wishes, Lee Vilenski (talk • contribs) 09:18, 7 October 2021 (UTC)[reply]
Development
  • "After this successful external collaboration," -> "After their success,"
  • "Based on fan requests for a Persona title on the Nintendo 3DS, Hashino created the game's concept." -> "Hashino developed a new game concept based on fan requests for a Persona title on the Nintendo 3DS."
  • "Its title was indicative of that wish for originality." -> "The title Q was chosen to represent the developers' goal of originality."
  • "The main aim was to create something for fans of the Persona series" -> this sort of feels like an empty sentence. Not to say you should strike it, as I'm guessing that maybe the decision to include characters from two past games would give this more meaning and context.
  • "The opening animation was directed by Tomohisa Taguchi, who also served as director for Persona 4: The Golden Animation." -> this sentence is out of place in the first paragraph
  • "When creating the storyline, Kido felt pressured due to the strong fan liking for both games' cast, in addition to creating a narrative which would suitably use and combine both casts. " -> "Kido felt the challenge of creating a storyline that would combine the characters from both games, as well as fan pressure around the characters' popularity."
  • "An element that was taken into consideration when portraying the main protagonists of each represented game was the additional media created around their games:" -> you can just remove this. You say it better and clearer immediately after.
  • "considered canon" -> according to who? The original developers? Later developers? Fans? Journalists?
  • "According to Kaneda, the two teams faced a delicate balancing act when combining the first-person exploration and user-created mapping of dungeons from Etrian Odyssey with the combat and style of the Persona series, as the two were seen as direct opposites" -> "According to Kaneda, the two teams found it difficult to combine Persona's combat and style with Etrian Odyssey's first-person exploration and dungeon mapping."
  • "eventually settling on incorporating the closest paralleling elements from both series" -> this isn't really clear. Maybe just strike it, since you explain how they worked out the combination in more specific terms.
  • "When development first started, the team" -> "Initially, the developers"
  • You say they added a bunch of systems without really explaining what they are or how they work. Particularly "Sub-Personas", let alone the Personas themselves.
    • It is explained now in the Gameplay, so I've added that it's just that characters can equip a second one. Best Wishes, Lee Vilenski (talk • contribs)
  • "While the gameplay and aesthetics mingled both Persona and Etrian Odyssey," -> you can remove this, as it would be off topic, and explained better in the earlier section
  • Consider shortening the music section. A lot of it is sourced to primary sources like liner notes, which risks verging into WP:UNDUE weight without coverage in reliable secondary sources. I'm sympathetic with wanting to shine a light on people buried deep in the credits, but this isn't really appropriate if they aren't attracting independent coverage.
    • I've removed a bit I'm a bit reticent to remove too much, as the music in Persona is quite a big deal, as they have full on concerts every year. Best Wishes, Lee Vilenski (talk • contribs) 09:28, 7 October 2021 (UTC)[reply]
Going to pause there. See if you can tackle those and we'll keep working. The prose needs a lot of work. I did my best to flag the most unclear parts, but it might be worth bringing in a grammar checker like Grammarly or Hemmingway to reconstruct the sentences in more readable ways. Shooterwalker (talk) 15:04, 2 October 2021 (UTC)[reply]
Hi Shooterwalker, this doesn't seem all that difficult to sort, but you may have to give me a couple of days as I have a few other nominations open. I'll drop you a ping when I've responded to the above. Best Wishes, Lee Vilenski (talk • contribs) 11:46, 3 October 2021 (UTC)[reply]
  • Thanks for your persistence. This one needs a bit more work, but if you're patient then I will be too. I'll retreat some loose ends, and then hopefully get to the later sections.
Gameplay
  • The turn-based battles redlink, I imagine you wanted to link to a proper article.
  • "The game comprises two main areas a high school and labyrinths." -> probably needs a small rewrite for grammar
  • "fuse mythical beats known as Personas used for battling together to create more powerful versions" -> Having trouble understanding what this means, but I appreciate that you're explaining the central concept to the Persona series.
  • Is there significance to any of the words "Fysis Oikein Eidolon"? It does feel odd to drop a bunch of made-up words without defining any of them, and I'm tempted to focus on just the acronym.
  • "Boosting multiple characters increases the likelihood of perform more powerful attacks, or those combining multiple characters" -> probably "performing". When you say "those", do you mean attacks? Might be good just to say that because it's currently unclear.
Plot
  • This reads so much better now. Thanks for your work on this.
Development
  • "thier" -> "their"
  • "Daisuke Kaneda, had" -> "Daisuke Kaneda, who had"
  • "which lead to the addition" -> "which led to the addition"
  • "system, some stat-reducing" -> "system. Some stat-reducing"
  • "stat-reducing" might be a little on the jargon-y technical side, and could be replaced with plainer clearer language
Music
  • "Two versions of the battle theme were created, one for the Persona 3 characters and one for the Persona 4 characters, each with instrumentation and vocals related to the respective casts." -> this statement is probably not explicitly stated in the liner notes and thus would cross the line into WP:OR. Even so, I think it gives WP:UNDUE weight to the subject, and breaks the flow of the rest of the paragraph, which talks about overall style and direction of the soundtrack.
  • "Lyrics and vocals for multiple tracks were provided by Lotus Juice, a musician with a long history of collaborating with Meguro on the Persona series: one of his prominent contributions was to "Laser Beam", the main boss battle theme" -> I don't think the source says "prominent", but it does mention "Laser Beam" to some degree. Try something like: "Meguro worked with long-time Persona collaborator Lotus Juice, who created lyrics and vocals for several tracks, including the main boss battle theme."
  • "Multiple Meguro-composed tracks from Persona 3 and Persona 4 were remixed for use in Persona Q." -> Is there a secondary source that highlights this? Maybe this source: [1]
  • The article doesn't mention the boss battle against Zeus. Was that the only song Koshiro worked on?
  • Is there a source that any of music unique to Persona Q is performed at concerts? Not strictly necessary, but would be an interesting fact to add, if it can be verified in a reliable source.
    • Likely some Japanese language sourcing. Nothing super RS that I could see from a search. Best Wishes, Lee Vilenski (talk • contribs) 12:30, 8 October 2021 (UTC)[reply]
Release
  • "fellow" is sort of a funny word that doesn't add anything here. Just say "a"
  • "There is also a Persona Q: Shadow of the Labyrinth Famitsu DX Pack with the game itself, a B2-size tapestry illustrated by the Persona Q anime staff, an A3-size clear poster illustrated by Atlus, a set of five different visual clear file folders, an original mug cup, and a Graphig paper figure of Rei." This sentence becomes complicated and difficult to read. Do we need to include this level of detail about the marketing materials?
  • "A manga adaptation illustrated by Akaume began serialization in ASCII Media Works' Dengeki Maoh magazine in its October 2014 issue" -> There is probably a clearer and plainer way to say this.
  • "In 2015, two manga adaptations were released. Side: P4 written by Mizunomoto centeres on Persona 4 protagonist. It launched in Kodansha's Monthly Shōnen Sirius magazine in January. Side: P3 written by Sō Tobita centeres on Persona 3 protagonist. It was launched in Kodansha's Bessatsu Shōnen Magazine in February" -> For readability and clarity, I might re-sequence this a bit. "Two manga adaptations were released in 2015: a Persona 4 manga Side: P4 written by Mizunomoto, and a Persona 3 manga Side: P3 written by Sō Tobita. The first was featured in Kodansha's Monthly Shōnen Sirius magazine in January, and the second in Kodansha's Bessatsu Shōnen Magazine in February."
  • "Like previous games such as Catherine," this feels out of place and doesn't add anything
    • Catherine was Atlus's previous release, where they specifically put out the no spoilers alert. Best Wishes, Lee Vilenski (talk • contribs) 12:43, 8 October 2021 (UTC)[reply]
  • "the precepts of their policy" -> just say "their policy"
  • "avoid the localization adjustments" -> "avoid translations"
  • What was it about the Ace Attorney series that they wanted to avoid?
    • Ace Attorney is a Japanese game, but when localised it was made to be based in the United States. When later titles came out, it became harder and harder to suggest it was still held there, what with shrines and Japanese food etc. Best Wishes, Lee Vilenski (talk • contribs) 12:43, 8 October 2021 (UTC)[reply]
  • "As Persona Q was a spin-off from two popular games, the team were careful that they remained faithful to both the original and fan expectations for the characters." -> Did you already cover this in the development section? It's unclear how this applies to localization.
  • "A compromise that was made was that players did not have enough space in the naming screen to use the "Yu Narukami" title for the Persona 4 protagonist" -> I'm having trouble understanding this sentence.
Reception
  • "Persona Q received positive feedback with review aggregator website Metacritic scoring the game at 83% indicating "generally favorable reviews" based on 56 critical opinions" -> this reads a little awkwardly, and could be standardized with other featured game articles
  • "Meghan Sullivan writing for IGN" -> "IGN's Meghan Sullivan" or "Meghan Sullivan of IGN"
    • I've never understood why people don't like this wording. The alternative suggest that IGN owns the writer (which maybe true), but the original wording leaves it open for freelancers, as is also strictly true Best Wishes, Lee Vilenski (talk • contribs) 12:53, 8 October 2021 (UTC)[reply]
  • "noting the strategic possibilities offered by the arrangement of the party in rows, the additional Personas each character had, and the leader skills" -> "noting the strategy around party arrangement, the characters' additional Personas, and the leader skills."
  • "map drawing elements" -> "map drawing system"
  • "Kyle MacGregor of Destructoid, however, found navigating the labyrinths the weakest aspect of the game because of situations like backtracking in search for a key or a puzzle solution, as he felt they were a "waste of time", but also enjoyed drawing maps and making notes" -> "Kyle MacGregor of Destructoid also enjoyed drawing maps and making notes, but was critical of the labyrinths for the amount of time wasted when backtracking."
  • "but that she found it "thrilling" to get to the other side of a labyrinth by finding the correct path on her own" -> "but still enjoyed finding the correct path through the labyrinths."
  • "MacGregor enjoyed how the game's writing was more playful than in other Persona titles," -> "MacGregor praised the game's writing as more playful than past Persona titles,"
  • "was disappointed in the focus on the new characters Rei and Zen, saying that it took a long time to learn who they were" -> closer to the source is "criticized the game's focus on new characters Rei and Zen, as the game takes too long to explain their role."
  • "Farokhmanesh said that they, while not as "personally satisfying" as their counterparts in Persona 3 and 4 where the player spends time with individual characters, effectively created a sense of togetherness within the group." -> this sentence should be rewritten and simplified.
  • "Upon its release in North America, the game sold 40,000 units, which was noted as a high sales figure given its release late in the month alongside other notable games" -> "Upon its release in North America, the game sold 40,000 units, which was noted as a high sales figure given the competition that month."
  • "NIS America had high hopes for the game, expecting it to boost sales for their new online store." -> Did it? This feels a little out of place, and might be better in the "release" section, unless we know how this initiative was received.
    • No idea. It's a weird one that they mentioned it, so I've removed. Best Wishes, Lee Vilenski (talk • contribs) 12:53, 8 October 2021 (UTC)[reply]
I know that's a lot. But I don't mind putting in this work as a reviewer if you don't mind putting in the work as an editor. It's worth it to get this article to a good standard. Shooterwalker (talk) 14:25, 7 October 2021 (UTC)[reply]
I don't think that's a lot. Thanks for giving me an in-depth review. :) I'll get on this as soon as possible (I'm off for a couple days starting next week - wedding anniversary - so hopefully I'll get this done before then. If not, be aware I may take a couple days). Best Wishes, Lee Vilenski (talk • contribs) 14:30, 7 October 2021 (UTC)[reply]
Shooterwalker. I've taken a look, let me know what you think Best Wishes, Lee Vilenski (talk • contribs) 12:53, 8 October 2021 (UTC)[reply]
We are getting closer and we are in the home stretch. There are some notes still, but with a little patience we can finish this off. Going to circle back to the lead, which is easier to review now that the article is more stable.

Lead[edit]

  • The lead mentions it being published in Australia, but it's not mentioned in the article (or cited).
  • "Meeting with Zen and Rei, two people whose memories were taken, the groups must unite and explore four labyrinths in the school to recover treasures hidden within which can restore Zen and Rei's memories, and to find a way to escape." -> this sentence runs on a bit and makes it hard to read and understand. The easiest fix might be to break it into two sentences, or find another way to shorten it.
  • "Development on the game began after Atlus's success with collaborating with an external developer on the 2012 fighting game Persona 4 Arena, based on the wish to create a collaborative spin-off with the Etrian Odyssey development team and fan demands for a Persona game on the 3DS." -> similar comment here
  • "the main Persona series and Etrian Odyssey IV." -> "both Etrian Odyssey IV and the main Persona series."
  • "designer Shigenori Soejima designed" -> "designer Shigenori Soejima created"
  • The article doesn't mention the sequel (or connect it to the success of this game). Might be a good way to tie up the reception section, with citations of course.

Body[edit]

  • "Gameplay follows a group of characters navigating mazes" -> "Gameplay follows a group of characters as they navigate mazes"
  • "Personas being mythical beats used for battling, with fusing turning them into more powerful versions." -> "Personas are mythical beats used for battling, and fusing turns them into more powerful versions."
  • Also, what do you mean by beats, in the last statement?
  • "maze like" -> "maze-like"
  • "Once this hits 100%" -> "Once this reaches 100%"
  • "the likelihood of perform more powerful attacks" -> "the likelihood of performing more powerful attacks"
  • "Persona's combat and style with Etrian Odyssey's" -> italicize titles (we might have missed a few others too)
  • "For this, the team did research" -> "To accomplish this, ..."
  • "mingled both" -> "were a cross between"
  • "Persona Q was announced in 2013 alongside the mainline entry ..." -> "Persona Q was announced in 2013 alongside several other Persona titles: the mainline entry ..." (just to give cues to the reader that they are reading a list)
  • Italicize "Side: P4" and "Side: P3"
  • "Side: P3 will end in November" -> there's some kind of tense issue here making this confusing, let alone that it leaves out what happened to Side: P4.
  • I still feel like the Catherine thing comes out of the blue, and could easily be removed without losing anything. But an alternative would be something like "Atlus had started to ask players to avoid spoilers with their game Catherine in 20XX, which they did again with Persona Q."
  • "the their" -> "their"
  • "changes to the location of" -> "changes to the setting of"
  • The reception section reads quite well now!
I feel good about how far this article has come, and hopefully this can take us close to the finish line. Shooterwalker (talk) 15:08, 8 October 2021 (UTC)[reply]
  • Thanks for your work on this. The article is in better shape on the whole and is very close to meeting good article standards. I'm looking for other precedents, and Persona 3 is actually rated as a good article without any sources for THQ handling the Australia release. I'd be curious to get feedback from the Video Game Wikiproject. But I think the Australia Kotaku source is fine, and certainly better than nothing. It might verge on original research, but I think the article would be worse by its omission. Someone can update it if they find a better source. Shooterwalker (talk) 00:59, 14 October 2021 (UTC)[reply]
  • I have now cited this in the infobox, so hopefully that's everything addressed. Best Wishes, Lee Vilenski (talk • contribs) 13:03, 17 October 2021 (UTC)[reply]
  • Amazing. Happy to give this a promotion and thanks again for your hard work. Shooterwalker (talk) 00:01, 18 October 2021 (UTC)[reply]
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