Talk:Mathur Vaishya
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Rewriting the article[edit]
If someone wishes to rewrite the article, a past version of the article can be seen at https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Mathur_Vaishya&oldid=613795749 which has some citations. There exist several 13th century inscriptions that mention the Mathur merchant community some of which can be seen in Kasturchand Jain Suman, Bharatiya Digambar Jain Abhilekh aur Tirth Parichay, Madhya-Pradesh: 13 vi shati tak, Delhi, 2001 Malaiya (talk) 01:54, 24 April 2022 (UTC)
Historical references[edit]
There exist several historical references. They are mentioned by Banarasidas in his Ardhakathanaka (1641).
इस अवसर तिस पुर थानिया | करमचंद माहुर बानिया. तिन अपनौं घर खाली कियौ | आपु निवास और घर लियौ || ११९ || करमचंद माहुर बनिक, खरगसेन श्रीमाल. भए मित्र दोऊ पुरुष, रहैं रयनि दिन नाल || १३१ ||
There are several 12-13th century inscriptions mentioning them, from both Mathura region as well as elsewhere. Perhaps I add the references.
The Mahur Vaishyas are a branch of the same community.
Malaiya (talk) 00:20, 23 January 2018 (UTC)
No Mathur Vaishy are not related Mahur Vaishy.Mathur Vaishy originated from Brij region around Mathura. Ajaygupta4 (talk) 07:20, 1 May 2020 (UTC)
- There are several communities that originated from Mathura, including Brahmins, Kayasthas, Baniyas, Telis etc. माहुर is the Apabhramsha version of Sanskrit word माथुर. [1] [2][3]Malaiya (talk)
- ^ Ardh Kathanak p. 156
- ^ Jati Bhaskar, Jvālāprasāda Miśra, 1996, p.321
- ^ Upanāma: eka adhyayana : Hindī upanāmoṃ kā anuśīlana evaṃ anveshaṇa by Śivanārāyaṇa Khannā, 1978
Clarification needed[edit]
In editing this article to clean up the grammar and style, I came across this bit:
"Mathur Vaishya have 108 gotras. It is believed that some Gotras had high percentile strength, so those gotras were divided into sub-gotras."
Even after looking up the Gotra system, these sentences didn't make much sense to me. If anyone who is more familiar with Indian culture can make more sense of them, I think they should be restored to the article, but as they are, they don't make much sense and have been removed. (For context, they were at the end of the second paragraph of the "Present conditions" section, referring to the present prevalence of names among the Mathur Vaishya.) WikiDan61ChatMe!ReadMe!! 13:31, 11 November 2008 (UTC)
Clarification Made[edit]
Historically, the Gotra system among non-Brahmins was derived from exogomus division, also known as clan. However, few non-Brahmins castes have copied gotra system of Brahmins during the period, when Vedas were re-written (probably in 14th century), as old manuscripts were destroyed by invaders.
The basis of divison within caste was derived either by place or by profession. Since Mathur Vaishya (also known as Mathuria Vaishya) were divided by other Vaishya on the basis of place (Mathura), so sub-division was on the basis of profession.
The clan system was the basis of gotra in Mathur Vaishya caste of Vaishya. The Alls & Brahminical teachings were considered secondary for this purpose in Mathur Vaishya caste of Vaishya. There are 105 clans in total, but mis-spellings had added few more clans.
Vaishya did not use to study Vedas on professional basis, so they were not linked with teachings of any of Hindu Muni. --Pengoria (talk) 08:53, 17 November 2008 (UTC)
Unfortunately, Ancient indian history is about only ruler class (king & associates) and rule breakers. Vaishya were not part of this equation. So there is not much documented history about them. Whatever, knowledge about their history is just based on information passed from generation to generation. So there are no books on Mathur Vaishya either. However, there are enough historical evidences that Mathur Vaishya did exist. Mathur Vaishya is sub-class of Vaishya and not related with Mathur. So this section should remain under Vaishya. --Pengoria (talk) 12:35, 17 November 2008 (UTC)
Yes Pengoria is right. Ajaygupta4 (talk) 07:36, 1 May 2020 (UTC)
FAQ on Mathur Vaishya[edit]
"History" word is derived from "His story". His story is a version of some individual. Therefore, there is always possibility for a conflict in historical events interpretation.
Following is some more information about Mathur Vaishya.
Q) Who are Mathur Vaishya?
A) Vaishya by tradition are traders / merchant. Mathur Vaishya ancestors used to live and do business in Mathura kingdom. They are also referred as Mathuria Vaishya. Mathur Vaishya is also written in one word as Mathurvaishya.
Q) Why and when Mathuria Vaishya left Mathura?
A) During the period of plundering of India by Mahmud Ghaznavi, the myths of Brahmin was busted, the might of Kshatriya was rusted. So Vaishya were unable to safegaurd their lives and belongings against foreign invasions.
During this period, Mathuria from all Varnas migrated to different places. Mathuria Vaishya considered Bateshwaer area as safe place, as it was surrounded by forests and ravines.
Q) Why Vaishya history is suppressed?
A) Some British historians had doubted, whether Vaishya even existed during Vedic period. These historians authenticated their claim based upon tiny description about Vaishya in Vedas, which they believe was added when Vedas were rewritten in 14th century. But these same historians also contradict themselves by stating that main revenues of kings were derived by taxing Vaishya. Those British historians had right to believe themselves because they could not fathom the existance of Vaishya based upon the India they saw during their days.
During british era in India, most of well to do (also dominating) Vaishya were converts (as per those Vaishya's own history, no offence intended), and most of these Vaishya were money lender. One of British historian also wrote that all original Vaishya have disappeared.
I do not know the history of all original Vaishya, but Mathur Vaishya lost their wealth because of foreign invasions.
The fate of Vaishya without wealth is same as that of Kshatriyas without arm and Brahmins without mouth. India could not have been "golden bird", if most of working class people were living in poor conditions and Vaishya were only lending money.
When India was golden bird, Vaishya were owners of business; and at times part of business activity was sub-contracted. Financing was normally provided to carry the sub-contracted work.
Hence when Vedas were re-written in 14th century, original Vaishya were suppressed lot. So there was nobody to enhance the cause of Vaishya in these manuscripts.
Q) Are Mathur Vaishya same as Mathur?
A) Mathur Vaishya and Mathur share same ancestoral homeland (Mathura), but they have no ancestoral linkage.
I do not know much about Mathurs, but as per their history they were expert in clerical jobs and employed with kings and merchants.
While Mathuria Vaishya were traditionally wholesale merchants / traders, who used to transact business in caravan routes.
Q) Are Mathur Vaishya same as Mathuria?
A) Mathur Vaishya are also referred as Mathuria Vaishya. There are Mathuria from other Varnas too. Apart from sharing same ancestoral homeland (Mathura), there is no ancestoral linkage. Mathuria Vaishya migrated to only Bateshwar area from Mathura. Vaishya population historically has been lowest among all Varnas, so Mathuria Vaishya population is also small.
Q) Why Mathur Vaishya do not have unity?
A) Mathur Vaishya are Bania's of Mathura. These Banias were from different group. It was special circumstance which forced them to flee in group for survival of life. Once the survival became clear, they reverted back to concept like rivalry. A Bania always competes with another Bania for business, so their basic nature prohibits them from concept like unity.
One can still observe some unity among Mathur Vaishya, who used to live in Chandwar Nager (and also known as Chandwaria). The migration to Chandwar Nagar happened much late and their survival in this north of Yamnua area was always a question mark. Now Mathur Vaishya have deserted Chandwar Nagar, so it is question of time that these Chandwaria's also revert to concept like rivalry among themselves.
Q) Do Mathuria Vaishya have community organization?
A) Mathuria Vaishya have an all India organization called Akhil Bharatiya Mathur Vaishya Mahasabha. It was founded in 1887 CE, as significant percentage of Mathuria Vaishya had migrated from Bateshwar area to other cities of India.
Following are few publications about Mathur Vaishya: a) Mathurvaishya Darpan b) Mathurvaishya Jagrati c) Mathurvaishya Bandhu d) Mathurvaishya Chitran e) Mathurvaishya Chetna
Unfortunately, this organization does not have meaningful goals. The posts in organizations are occupied for ego satisfaction. So the organization has become a toothless body.
Q) Is there any person who can be called face of Mathur Vaishya?
A) Mathur Vaishya community have many successful individuals. They were successful in individual capacity. Unfortunately, Mathur Vaishya community do not have a personality, which has inspired or transformed people.
Q) What is Mathur Vaishya contribution to business?
A) A true Vaishya always compete for business. Prior to Mathur Vaishya's arrival in Firozabad, glass (including bangles) business was in few hands, and was run as monopoly. The competing and hardworking nature of Mathur Vaishya made glass bangles business modular, and has become a great example of small scale industry. It is also great example of out-sourcing at its best. Any expert in specific area (cutting, design, decoration etc) of glass business can run it as per their resources and ambitions.
The dominance of Mathur Vaishya in Glass bangles business also highlights the fact that Firozabad do not have beggers (though crime and child labor is an issue). Only educated ones may be unemployed. Mathur Vaishya have proved that Golden Bird (India) was possible by Vaishya being owner of business, and by not just lending money.
Mathur Vaishya also contributed for the distribution business of glass bangles to all parts of India.
Q) Was Mathur Vaishya ancestor's from different caste also?
A) Varna system got converted into caste system during the course of history. Mathur Vaishya have 105 clans. So it is possible that some of these clans might have got converted to Bania from different caste later, or they changed their Varna in earlier period. It is believed that clan name ending with "al" were added later to Mathur Vaishya, as these clans could not join the escaping Vaishya from Mathura. So it is possible that in transit period, they might have relations with other castes or sub-castes of Vaishya.
Few of these Mathur Vaishya, who had brief interaction with other caste or Varna, try to paint the origin of Mathur Vaishya to their ancestral heritage. But Mathuria Vaishya are predominantly Baniya, which is crystal clear by their action, thoughts and knowledge.
Mathur Vaishya ancestors escaped from Mathura to protect their pride and honour by sacrificing their wealth. But in course of centuries, lack of opportunities and wealth forced few people to ignore these time tested values and indulging in maligning propaganda.
Note:
As per Purusha sukta, "from thighs area were the Vaishya born". This is common now for all human beings regardless of caste & religion. So now there is only one Varna, which is Vaishya.
Some of the facts, provided above is for informational purpose only. It has been proven that all human beings have same characterstics (two hands, two legs, two eyes, two ears, one nose, one mouth, one brain and red blood).
a) It is matter of opportunity triggering at appropraite time that can help people to launch them in orbit of success.
b) It is matter of misfortune or bad karma that orbital heights gets translated into dust.
Each race, villlage, town, city, country goes through a cycle of prosperity to complacency. Mathur Vaishya are ( were ) no exception. They were at pinnacle of success while doing business in Mathura and then got into oblivion for centuries in forests around Bateshwar.--Pengoria (talk) 12:52, 1 February 2010 (UTC)
Mr pengoria,what u have written is true to a great extent.can I have your email id Ajaygupta4 (talk) 12:26, 22 November 2017 (UTC)
pengoria ji what u have written is true to a great extent.can I have your email id Ajaygupta4 (talk) 12:26, 22 November 2017 Ajaygupta4 (talk) 20:09, 18 February 2018 (UTC)
- There is no need for anyone to divulge their email address on Wikipedia pages. - Sitush (talk) 16:03, 20 February 2018 (UTC)
most of these description is right. 122.177.131.126 (talk) 17:04, 27 June 2021 (UTC)
Woking on the page[edit]
Hi Sitush, I'm working on the page right now. Will remove the uncited content and non-wiki tone. I request you to please hold on a moment. Mr RD 18:24, 14 February 2016 (UTC)
- Websites affiliated with castes are not reliable sources, period. Please stop. - Sitush (talk) 19:18, 14 February 2016 (UTC)
- Ok. I've raised this issue over WP:India talk page and Wikipedia:Reliable sources/Noticeboard. Let's see what other contributors think. Thank you for your efforts. :) Mr RD 19:48, 14 February 2016 (UTC)