Talk:Lympne light aircraft trials

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1926[edit]

A couple of surprises came up in collecting this list, essentially a combination of those in Flight 1926-07-29 p.524 and 1926-09-16 p.593. One was the RAE Sirocco, so obscure that even Ord-Hume does not mention it. Its existence is not central to this article, but it would be nice to know more. The only facts are that it was entered to the 1926 event before June 30, it was expected up to the last minute and had been reported to have flown and that it was registered G-EBNL. It is also true that the RAE aircraft Zephyr, Hurricane and Scarab carried c/ns 1, 2 and 5, with that interesting gap. The registration docs have the Sirocco as c/n 3.

The other point is that Flight does give (in tables or anywhere else in the text on Lympne that I've spotted) the trials No. for the ANEC machine. This is the Missel Thrush, and there is a gap in the September list at 13 which exactly matches the Thrush entry in the ordered but unnumbered July list. However, Ord-Hume says it was given the competition No.24. Strange, as there is no evidence for entrants 19-23. I can see maybe 13 unlucky, but ...TSRL (talk) 10:34, 13 November 2009 (UTC)[reply]

There is a list of entrants for the Grosvenor Cup race, held jut after the Trials. in it, the ANEC is listed with its trials No.13, so Ord-Hume is wrong. The Sirocco is also there at No.5. TSRL (talk) 10:48, 13 November 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Thereis a photo of the ANEC with 29 on its fin, but it also has the Genet engine so the date is Apri '27 or later. Haven't checked, but maybe 29 was its number in the fatal King's Cup race. Anyway: 13, and unlucky at Lympne. TSRL (talk) 17:26, 13 November 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Some good work TSRL, I missed the Sirocco when I produced the RAE Club nav box. Jackson 1974 has it in appendix for aircraft without a known image. He says "Non-starter, completion abandoned". Jackson 1974 also has ANEC I G-EBHR as No. 18, G-EBIL as No. 17 for 1923, and ANEC II G-EBJO as No. 7 in 1924. It has a Flight picture of the IV/Missel Thrush with No. 24 on the fin for the 1928 King's Cup Race! MilborneOne (talk) 18:08, 13 November 2009 (UTC)[reply]

1923 No. 13[edit]

Possibly the Handasyde monoplane (Fred Raynham) was Martinsyde F.6 G-EBDK which was built for F.P.Raynham and first flown in 1921. Jackson 1974 has it as an entry in the 1922 King's Cup and in the 1924 race. MilborneOne (talk) 19:59, 13 November 2009 (UTC)[reply]

The Sirocco is in Ap. C of the 1960 ed, though I'd missed it. Wonder what c/n 4 was. I'm sure we could get the G- regs for many, probably most of the Lympne machines with the Putnam books, Ord-Hume and some others. I don't think it would take too long if we wanted to i/d aircraft uniquely in this way. I'd be inclined to turn the lists into some sort of table if we did, also including entrant, pilot, engine and comments (e.g. not completed) that we have added ad hoc to the lists. As I was putting info in, I felt it was starting to feel a bit untidy.TSRL (talk) 20:24, 13 November 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Ord-Hume has an article on the Handasyde monoplane, designed after he left Martinsyde (=Martin + Handasyde). This was a powered version of the glider he flew at the Itford competition of 1922, and was the Lympne 1923 machine. The engine was a 750 cc Douglas. The photos show no markings (probably true for many of these motor gliders?) and there is no i/d in the text. Just the one built. TSRL (talk) 20:24, 13 November 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Sounds reasonable that it would an experimental machine for the trials. I think a table is a good idea, also note I have just created Halton Mayfly to remove a red link! MilborneOne (talk) 20:43, 13 November 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Glad you said! I've just added a Flight ref and some numbers to the Mayfly, so you'll know what next I had in mind! Perhaps I'll have a go at the Handasyde to clear that red link. TSRL (talk) 21:00, 13 November 2009 (UTC)[reply]

The table looks fine, very neat and easy to follow. I think, while we are at it, we should add a column for the engine and room for type i.e. flat twin. It would save some text elsewhere, and we are already putting engine data in for some aircraft; I have already got the data for 1926 and will happily populate. TSRL (talk) 21:36, 13 November 2009 (UTC)[reply]

OK, but just to note that the engine type could be found by following the engine link just have to be careful of not adding to much secondary data. MilborneOne (talk) 21:42, 13 November 2009 (UTC)[reply]

OK, agreeTSRL (talk) 22:00, 13 November 2009 (UTC)[reply]

1924 Cygnet[edit]

The two Cygnets were G-EBJH and G-EBMB, but at te moment I don't know which was which. TSRL (talk) 11:16, 14 November 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Found the answer in Mason's Hawker book.TSRL (talk) 11:20, 14 November 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Agree Jackson 1973 has the same (15 is EBJH and 14 is EBMB) MilborneOne (talk) 12:55, 14 November 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Wonder what No.11 was? TSRL (talk) 22:43, 14 November 2009 (UTC)[reply]

1923 Grigg[edit]

The Times says it was a Grigg biplane powered by a Grigg engine, they were motorcycle manufacturers, No mention of an Avro. Lots of detail in contempary issues of the Times. I will start to work my way through them. MilborneOne (talk) 23:12, 16 November 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Ord-H on No.1, under Avro 558: "Three examples were entered, the first, No.1, being submitted by the Grigg Motor & Engineering Company. ... (on No.s 5 & 11) ..., and nothing is known of number one. If it was built, it is not recorded anywhere and Grigg do not seem to have taken any part in the actual event other than in supplying the engine (it had acquired the B&H patents that August)."TSRL (talk) 23:42, 16 November 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Poncelets[edit]

According to www.asa-be.com/photogallery_BCR_O-B.htm, the Belgian register had at least two Poncelets, Vivette O-BAFH and Castar O-BAFG, the former now in the Brussels air museum. Don't know if there were lots of these made or if these two are the Lympne pair. I'll try to pursue. They call O-BAFH the Sabca Poncelet Vivette.

I've looked in Golden Years, who have 'FG as belonging to Simonet (the pilot in our list) and 'FH as owner by J B Richards, who is listed as the entrant (not pilot) in the Flight 19231004 p.602 list of entrants. No other Castors or Castars (Flight say Castar), so those registrations are probably right and I'll add them to our listTSRL (talk) 10:04, 17 November 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Castar was certainly O-BAFG: there is a photo in Flight 19231018 p.642 of Simonet's Poncelet, clearly showing its number (21) and its reg.TSRL (talk) 16:53, 17 November 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Survivors[edit]

I've added a brief survivors para to the 1923 section. So far it contains only Vivette and Wren.TSRL (talk) 10:55, 17 November 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Weighing in[edit]

The Times looks a useful source - I'd not thought of that. There is a bit in Flight about the transportation test in 1923, which I'd completely missed. There is also a bit about weighing the pilots "(whose weight ??be made up to the 'standard' weight of 186 lb), ??ing the fuel, and ..." ?? represents text lost at the inner margin in Flight's very tattered copy; ?? does not mean only two characters are missing. Does the Times say anything about weighing, and if fuel was ?in?cluded or ?ex?cluded? Since Flight only says the aircraft were fuelled to something over a gallon, maybe 12 lb of petrol? Maurice Piercy at least has the look and build of a flat race jockey: 115 lb? Macmillan looks much more solid.TSRL (talk) 20:43, 17 November 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Yes I have just added the transportation test, still reading the other Times entries (access free with a library card!) I will have a look if it mentions weight. Did find a reference to the Entry fee being £5! MilborneOne (talk) 21:08, 17 November 2009 (UTC)[reply]

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