Talk:Luis Arce

Use of pronouns & names

This article has several issues with use of Arce's name -- it inconsistently uses "Arce" and "Arce Catacora" to refer to the politician and many sections previously used pronouns only (ambiguous). I have corrected what I could but am unfamiliar with the Bolivian conventions for use of middle/second last names and would appreciate if someone could check that over. Thanks /[/[/[/[/[/[/[/[/[/[/[/[/[/[/[/[/[/[/[/[/[/[/[/ (talk) 19:55, 7 July 2020 (UTC)

In Spanish, we typically refer predominantly to the paternal last name - which would be "Arce". "Alberto" would be his middle name, "Catacora" would be his maternal last name. OneNerdyBoi (talk) 18:44, 8 November 2020 (UTC)

External links modified

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I just checked these edits over and there is something a little off about the substitution, the bot appears to have used a broken tag on one of the links. Could someone more familiar with it please double check that? The dead link that the bot identified is also used as the predominant source in multiple sections of this article, so a higher-quality still live substitute should be found. Thanks /[/[/[/[/[/[/[/[/[/[/[/[/[/[/[/[/[/[/[/[/[/[/[/ (talk) 19:55, 7 July 2020 (UTC)

Pronunciation?

A pronunciation guide (IPA) to "Arce" would help many readers unfamiliar with Bolivian names... Boud (talk) 17:11, 21 October 2020 (UTC)

Lucho

@Coffeeandcrumbs, GiantSnowman, and Crmoorhead: Both Coffeeandcrumbs and GiantSnowman have removed different phrasing accounting for the hypocorism "Lucho" per distinct interpretations of WP:MOSNICKNAME/MOS:HYPOCORISM ([1][2]). Surely the lead (and/or some combination of the infobox heading plus the lead) may be enhanced including the widely referred hypocorism Lucho somehow?--Asqueladd (talk) 11:39, 23 October 2020 (UTC)

I agree, I am literally looking up the Wiki guidelines right now, so I'll quote here:

If a person is known by a nickname used in lieu of or in addition to a given name, and it is not a common hypocorism[f] of one of their names, or a professional alias, it is usually presented between double quotation marks following the last given name or initial. The quotation marks are not put in lead-section boldface.* Example: Bunny Berigan Tina Fey.

[f]...Assume that most non-English hypocorisms (e.g. Lupita for Guadalupe and Mischa for Mikhail) are not familiar as hypocorisms to readers of the English Wikipedia, even if well-known in their native culture.

Luis Arce is commonly referred to in the Bolivian media as "Lucho" (even without the surname) and it's what he uses on the official website and social media platforms. Arguably the page should be that since that is what he uses professionally, but I aleady created a redirect page from Lucho Arce to Luis Arce. A lot of Bolivian politicians have this, notably "Tuto" with or without the Quiroga (Jorge Quiroga), "Goni" for Gonzalo Sánchez de Lozada, "Mallku" for Felipe Quispe and "Tata Quispe" for Rafael Quispe. When I mean commonly, I mean that people more often refer to them using these names than their full original names. This from my knowledge of being connected with and living in Bolivia and through my Bolivian wife.

*unless I'm missing something, they clearly are in the examples! My original edit had, "commonly known as 'Lucho'".Crmoorhead (talk) 12:08, 23 October 2020 (UTC)

If he is 'commonly' known by that diminution, then move the article (after obtaining consensus at WP:RM) to Lucho Arce, or mention the 'Lucho' nickname further down the lede. But it should not be in the opening name. We don't have 'Bruce "The Boss" Springsteen", do we? GiantSnowman 16:06, 23 October 2020 (UTC) GiantSnowman 16:06, 23 October 2020 (UTC)

@GiantSnowman:. It is not a good analogy, imo. Lucho (kinda) works as substitute of Luis. I don't have a strong opinion on which of Luis Arce and Lucho Arce fits better as title (it could go either way), but I don't think we need extreme rigidity on connecting the title and the phrasing of the lead.--Asqueladd (talk) 16:55, 23 October 2020 (UTC)

The style guide seems pretty clear from the above text and I made the edit with the quotes. Also from the style guide "A nickname can eventually become a professional alias, even the most common name for a person. Such a case loses the quotation marks, other than in the subject's lead section if introducing the nickname in mid-name. If the nickname is dominant (in general or in a particular context) it can often be used in other articles without further elaboration." Which is what you suggest for achieving consensus at WP:RM. This is not the case, however, as the names are used pretty interchangeably depending on context. It's not exclusively Lucho or exclusively Luis, but it would benefit English-speaking readers to be aware of the alternative name. Crmoorhead (talk) 19:32, 23 October 2020 (UTC)

Agreed, neither one not the other is dominant and I quoted the style guide you cited to show examples that disagree with what you are saying. Luis is the same as Lucho, bit I don't know how common it is and the style guide gives specific advice on non-English alternatives. Crmoorhead (talk) 17:32, 23 October 2020 (UTC)

Ethnicity/Race

Mestizo or native american?

It's a complicated issue in Bolivia as most people are indigenous, although may not necessarily identify as so, and another large percentage is mestizo, although also might not identify as that. Arce would be considered white by most Bolivians. I only found one reference that said he was "white mestizo", but it's nothing that really needs to be noted in the article, IMO. Crmoorhead (talk) 15:24, 28 October 2020 (UTC)

Thank you. Does he speak any indegenous language of Bolivia?--Kaiyr (talk) 11:20, 29 October 2020 (UTC)

@Kaiyr: Just saw this question. By law, all public officials are meant to speak at least one, but in practice that is rarely the case. It's even questionable that Morales speaks an indigenous language. In a later stunt, Morales was addressed in Aymara and could not respond in that language. I would personally doubt that Arce speaks an indigenous language, but the vice-president, David Choquehuanca, certainly does and has made public addresses in Aymara (and possibly Quechua too, but I'd have to check). Similarly, few of the cabinet speak an indigenous language. The policy that they must speak one is well-intentioned, but almost impossible to enforce as it's hard for adults to learn a new language that is significantly different from their mother tongue. Crmoorhead (talk) 16:38, 22 November 2020 (UTC)

References

Discussion

Please use the talk page instead of edit warring. 31.187.0.163 (talk) 13:24, 29 October 2020 (UTC)

From the page on Áñez:

The number of prosecutions has led to accusations of political persecution from human rights groups.[75][74] Similar observations were also made during the Morales era.[76][77][78] 

ATM, we don't have a page to put any information about political trials against the opposition or what other people think of them. It's disingenuous to divorce the actions of his party from Arce, particularly if it involves political persecution. For the two-thirds controversy, he has publicly endorsed it and legislators are citing it as being able to give him greater power of governance. It's normal to comment on actions of the party of a sitting president on their biography page and the fact that he is President elect is only splitting hairs. A new page could be started on which to put the information, but again it's not uncommon or irrelevant to this page. Crmoorhead (talk) 13:43, 29 October 2020 (UTC)

That's relating to decisions made by Anez. This is not a decision made by Arce. 31.187.0.163 (talk) 13:51, 29 October 2020 (UTC)

Is it? If you want to equate "the government" with Áñez, when most members aren't even from her party, then it's a tenuous connection. I don't think the above material (and much more critical material) should be deleted from her page at its something relevant that is going on and the only suitable place to mention it. In 10 days, MAS will be "the government" and the actions and laws regarding not allowing former authorities to leave the country and any trials initiated will be relevant in the same way, particularly as they will be instigated by his party which he has much more control of than Áñez ever had over the interim government or the judiciary. Crmoorhead (talk) 14:07, 29 October 2020 (UTC)

Its the administration of Anez that made the decisions, this is not an action of the administration of Arce which does not even exist yet.31.187.0.163 (talk) 14:51, 29 October 2020 (UTC)

Going through both arguments I see the issue. At the moment Arce's page as a whole is quite short and I can see how people can take issue with its longest section making little mention of him. However, I also see that there isn't really any other place to put it. One suggestion, which I personally believe in, could be to move the section in question to the MAS's own Wikipedia page which has a whole section called "In government." In the way it is currently written, the section doesn't really talk about Arce except to mention that he will be inaugurated and MAS will lose its majority so I feel it makes more sense to put it on the MAS Wikipedia page as it mostly talks about, well, MAS. Another suggestion would be refocusing the section in question around Arce or at least making more mention of him. In particular, @Crmoorhead, if you have a source on Arce's endorsement of this move by MAS, making mention of that would be majorly helpful. As a whole, the section currently feels out of place on Luis Arce's Wikipedia page. I believe the full explination should be moved to the MAS page and the section on this page shortened to focus on how it relates to Arce (Basically just give a quick summary and talk about his reaction). I feel this is the best solution. Krisgabwoosh (talk) 02:20, 30 October 2020 (UTC)

@Krisgabwoosh: There is a mention of Arce's endorsement on the page at the end of the paragraph, although I didn't yet include a direct quote. Mesa also made an appeal to Arce (and Choquehuanca) to engage with his block on the matter and show that MAS will be different under his leadership, which is not mentioned, but would tie it in with the page a bit more. It could also be tied into his comments on judicial independence prior to the election since the vote has made it easier for judges to be appointed by a single political party. My main reason for including it was because it seemed the place most suitable and most useful for readers to find current information about what is going on here. ATM, this material hasn't leaked outside of Bolivia and will likely evolve naturally in the next few weeks.

As for the MAS page, it's a terrible page. With the exception of election victories, there is virtually no material an anything more recent than 2009. There is a complete vacuum on any governance decisions, good or bad, from any source. It would be a huge project to fill in material from the last 10 years and I don't know that its the most useful place for the information for readers. At least on the Arce page, it's relevant background material to his presidency and it seems likely that the next few days will see more statements from him in order to reword the material to make it more directly related to him. It also doesn't seem to be a stretch to say that any trials of past officials will be a defining characteristic of his early presidency, which I can't add to ATM because it hasn't started yet. When those become more relevant, it might be better to more the material as background for those events.

I don't think it will be the longest section for long as Arce has a long political career behind him of which nothing is yet mentioned and (at least) five years of governing ahead of him. Like in the page for Jeanine Áñez, it would be better if a lot of the governmental stuff went to another page on the 2020-2025 term as what can be said on a biography page is limited. For now, I think it is OK here as a placeholder until it can be modified to be more directly related to Arce or until a 2020-2025 page can be made that allows for a bit more freedom. I also think that getting more material about his activity as cabinet member and minister for economics would be incredibly useful and make the recent politics less dominating in terms of content. Crmoorhead (talk) 12:03, 30 October 2020 (UTC)

@Crmoorhead: I suppose that works for now. Here's how I suggest trimming. The final paragraph pertaining to the charges against Añez should be shortened to one or two sentences and the original paragraph should be moved to Añez's own page (Which as of yet does not mention that charges have been approved claiming an investigation is still ongoing). Then, mention of Arce's endorsement of the move by Mas should be expanded upon so that the section relates more to him. Krisgabwoosh (talk) 15:29, 30 October 2020 (UTC)

Seems a good idea. It's a bit of effort to keep up to date with things moving so rapidly. The paragraph would suit Añez's own page too but I did not want to copy and paste the whole section. A new section on her page about trials would be relevant, especially now that they are specifying the exact charges. Preferrably they will release the investigation report. International responses are bound to follow too. There were two or three stories I read concerning Arce and the two-thirds, but did not get a chance to add them yet, so they could replace some of the existing material. Crmoorhead (talk) 16:22, 30 October 2020 (UTC)

Actions as President

According to this, Arce and his government have done literally nothing since their inauguration. The question is whether a new page should be created so that it gives more freedom from BLP policies that can be extended to actions of the extended government rather than Arce himself. Crmoorhead (talk) 23:25, 17 November 2020 (UTC)

He's only been in office for 10 days. I recommend waiting a bit to see what happens. Krisgabwoosh (talk) 18:13, 18 November 2020 (UTC)

He might only be in office for a short time, but that doesn't mean to say there isn't anything going on in Bolivia related to his government. The inauguration and makeup of ministers, new military command, reinstatement of "Patria o muerte" in the armed forces, release of detainees, dissolution of trials, processes against political opponents, the 2/3 supermajority changes, continuing questions about independence of the judiciary, changes in international relations (including more openness with the outside world), return of Morales' and others to the country etc. Most, if not all, of these are commented on on Áñez's page. There also has been a lot of commentary about Choquehuanca's generally conciliatory message and Arce's more divisive one in placing blame for all Bolivia's problems on the opposition and further discussions about the divisions within MAS itself under his presidency. Time will tell how important this is, but all of it is still relevant to a sitting President and his governance. I am in no rush to add it, but such information rarely makes it outside of Latin America in English media and it doesn't seem amiss to point out possible inclusions for other editors. There are relatively neutral articles on the above from various sources. Crmoorhead (talk) 14:56, 19 November 2020 (UTC)

With adequate sources, you're free to include all of this in his page. I can hazard a guess that not many edits are made on the English page because there are not many English sources on new developments. If you are able to translate some Spanish sources and include them on the page, go ahead. Krisgabwoosh (talk) 16:14, 19 November 2020 (UTC)

I don't see that creating a new article will solve whatever you think the problem is. BLP policies will be the same for the new article as for this one. Anything that is inappropriate here because of BLP will also be inappropriate in the new article. If there are things going on related to Arce's government they can be included here. We did create an article about Morales' presidency Presidency of Evo Morales but it only covers up to 2012 and so is horribly out of date.Burrobert (talk) 16:22, 19 November 2020 (UTC)

Thanks to both for your input. I agree with both. My issues with BLP is that, in Bolivia at least, there is a gap between Luis Arce as President and what the party he belongs to is doing and there is a careful argument that one might have nothing to do with the other, regardless of how important the events might be. Actions of the ALP, for example, although heavily dominated by his party are nothing to do with Aexe as connections between him and the party are not direct. There are several articles, including the Presidency of Evo Morales page, on Mrales' social or foreign policies etc that effectively have no news for a decade. There is certainly a responsibility to update and reorganise those pages, but that doesn't negate the reason why they were created in the first place nor advocate for their deletion. Including relevant information on this page seems compromise enough, as was done on the last two Presidents' bio pages, as long as it is understood that there should be some flexibility to account for the need that there is currently no space for current events in Bolivia at the present time. If it becomes too large, then a new page should be created, IMO. Crmoorhead (talk) 18:00, 19 November 2020 (UTC)

Perhaps the main thing that needs to be done is someone needs to go through and thoroughly update the MAS-ISP page to include relevant information. As for the Presidency of Evo Morales page, it would probably be better to simply be merged with Morales' main page. It would take far too long to update the original page but the information that's already there would fit just as well on Morales' page. But perhaps that's a discussion for the talk page there. Krisgabwoosh (talk) 18:26, 19 November 2020 (UTC)

The readable prose size is currently just over 6kB which is well below the point at which we need to start considering space (around 50kB). I am sure that an appropriate article can be found for any item that is too far removed from Arce. The general article on Bolivia contains information about Morales’ presidency for example. There is also the History of Bolivia (1982–present) article and the MAS article mentioned by Kris, although, as mentioned, that also seems to be out of date. Burrobert (talk) 18:31, 19 November 2020 (UTC)

Some good suggetions, thanks. Crmoorhead (talk) 20:00, 19 November 2020 (UTC)

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