Talk:Lightning (Final Fantasy)

Cosplay

I've reinserted the picture... it works for now, but removing a picture because the caption doesn't have a source is disruptive. Lightning cosplayers have won numerous con awards and have been represented on a professional and amateur level for many years. The first google hit provided evidence of this. ChrisGualtieri (talk) 04:28, 15 June 2013 (UTC)

Come to think of it... the prose needs a lot of work on this article. ChrisGualtieri (talk) 04:28, 15 June 2013 (UTC)

yes, its a very good reason why. We cant add such info if its not properly backed up by sources. Also, winning cosplay events is not related to Lightning's cultural impact. It has to do with how well they portray the character their cosplaying as. Google search isnt really going to help you. Also, the source you added doesnt prove it.

Basically, if its questionable and not sourced, its not disruptive at all to remove. An image like that needs sourcing.Lucia Black (talk) 04:49, 15 June 2013 (UTC)

I cannot understand " We cant add such infi if ita jot properly backed up hy sources. " spell check and please. You've got numerous professional cosplayers in that line up like Light Farron; the source points to a selected worklist, but quite clearly it needs no OR to point to the obvious that it is international and that the works are professional level. I've merely cited a source which backs the claim. ChrisGualtieri (talk) 04:58, 15 June 2013 (UTC)

BUT the source isnt noting the professional cosplayers, or the international level. The focus of the source is showing the best cosplays of lightning. For such a trivial thing, you would need more sourcing and noting it. Noting Lightning's cultural impact.

Example: if one claimed that Vaan was subject of fanart of professional and amateurs and the only source is only focusing on the top 10 fanarts that happen to have professional artist, it wouldnt be a strong source. Its not directly OR, but in the case of citing reception and cultural impact, we have to be exact on what the source is saying.Lucia Black (talk) 05:09, 15 June 2013 (UTC)

It is SHOWING different examples 'internationally. Read it, "This collection features cosplay artists from Belgium, Canada, France, Germany, Italy, Japan, Netherlands, Russia, Singapore, and The United States." These are professional examples; every single one is better than the photo we have now. What about Julie Beliveau? Just cause of the examiner blacklist means I can't post interviews with her and some of the others are secondary blogs and con postings which don't help as much for the specific claim raised because that's at an individual level. Julie's work was in Cosmode; related to the now defunct English language offshoot.[1] So yes; if I had that version I'd gladly cite it, but then that wouldn't be "international" now would it? You are removing material that is not contentious and never has been; it did not even have a citation needed tag. The claim was not even remotely controversial either; there was absolutely no need to remove it. ChrisGualtieri (talk) 05:18, 15 June 2013 (UTC)

Missing tge point. Thus particular info is citing it as something notable to lightnings cultural impact but thats not what the source is focusing on. its not about OR, its about how relevant it is to being cultural impact.. many ff characters have been noted about cosplay, such as Cloud, Squall, Rikku, Rinoa. But has been noted as a significant to lightning? Also, I look at this, and I dknt get this professional vibe. Most of these link to deviantart.Lucia Black (talk) 05:26, 15 June 2013 (UTC)

Doesn't matter. Issue 32, page 136. DA name is used; but attribution and disclosure is provided. You may not get the professional vibe, but hundreds of these "DA" cosplayers have been recognized and showcased in Cosmodo over the years. You just don't like it. Secondary sources count and quite frankly; your opinion on things are subjective, but that's not how Wikipedia works. You won't deal with cosplayers like Julie Beliveau; a simple name that came to mind; because you can't see past the "DA" matter. The pictures in that link are professional; the magazine covers Cosplay and quite frankly it doesn't matter if its DA or not. You do not seem to understand that simple fact that secondary sources can apply and its doesn't need to be the NYT to get a mention. ChrisGualtieri (talk) 05:36, 15 June 2013 (UTC)

What are you talking about? This is the first time you mention "DA". And yes, I dont like it, because the image is based off one source not based off multiple sources to portray significance. Its undue weight. Why are you even mentioning NYT?

Keep your comments about content and not about contributors (especially when it only poisons the discussion).Lucia Black (talk) 05:47, 15 June 2013 (UTC)

Uh I am pointing out content matters; you do not seem to be understanding how my comments apply to the argument. Also you mentioned DA first. My source contains widely known professional cosplayers; as if the professional photographer and intricacy of the outfits alone didn't prove that the cosplayer was professional already. REIKA being probably the most well-known one; but I guess it was the Snow Villers one or the Barnaby Brooks Jr. from Tiger and Bunny cosplay which are probably more well-known examples... but that is splitting hairs at this point. The gallery alone contains numerous professional cosplayers from around the world; I'm not going to make 5-6 references for each country and do a long expose on cosplay in the middle of this article to prove the obvious that's already seen in the source posted. You don't like it; I understand that; but the claim is not wrong and the source shows fitting professional examples. I don't need to prove that each individual cosplayer on that list is professional for the purposes of this citation; but I'm sure if you spent a few minutes you will see that cosplayers like REIKA are professional. Who cares if a cosplayer like REIKA has a DA; if that's their venue of choice for their community, so be it. Its not the site or the username that makes someone notable; we have hundreds of examples of pseudonyms and such being used stretching back centuries; the coverage is what shows it is worthy of note or in this case... of citing a simple fact that the cosplay popularity of a video game character is international. ChrisGualtieri (talk) 06:17, 15 June 2013 (UTC)

I dont abbreviate things unless its completely obvious. Im saying its difficult to prove which ines are professional. And I dont mind the info is saying she has international appeal, but ar the same time stretchting the topic of that source, and adding an image just for one source. Its definitely undue weight. Youll need multiple source citing the international in general, not individual countries.Lucia Black (talk) 06:46, 15 June 2013 (UTC)

The article doesn't seem to need it. I think I'm coming down with Lucia on this issue. --ProtoDrake (talk) 09:36, 15 June 2013 (UTC)

The image is not the best; but the actual point that Lightning has been the subject of dozens of professional cosplayers is a different matter and warrants one sentence. I don't want to name any singular professional cosplayer; but I'd have to opt for ones like REIKA (included in the source) simply because REIKA has been a special "international" guest at cons like she was at Cosmania in 2012. The portrayal of Lightning in Cosmodo have been numerous as well; while I know more about the American inclusion in their spreads, I can assure you that Lightning cosplayers have been featured numerous times. All this discussion for a tiny sentence or two seems a bit much; we all got better things to do then argue this. The picture may not be great; its got a watermark and visible copyright and while under CC-by-SA, that copyright logo is off-putting. As it stands, the picture does bring some aesthetic sense to the page; but the "cultural impact" segment is a bit unbalanced as the character critique makes up the majority of it right now. I'm sure I've seen philosophical and feminine discussion about Square's choice for a female lead and with such a background. Square does not often have female leads, with the X-2 being the other obvious exception. I'm sure some expansion can be found there. ChrisGualtieri (talk) 13:45, 15 June 2013 (UTC)

Oh, yes please on expanding the "cultural impact" section, if things like that can be found. It is very unusual, certainly in the Final Fantasy series so far, to have such a strong female in the lead who doesn't get given a romantic side-story. If that can be found, it surely must go in. --ProtoDrake (talk) 13:53, 15 June 2013 (UTC)

A quick 2 minute search lead me to Kathryn Hemmann who is a graduate student at University of Pennsylvania who did a lengthy 5 part discussion on "Feminism and Final Fantasy", but it completely misses Lightning (written in 2011). I'm not sure that her research and views would count because I cannot find them submitted to the university, but the dissertation "Women Writers and Women Readers: The Female Gaze in Contemporary Japanese Literature", but a quick search shows she has numerous conferences where she presents her work and discusses it in an academic setting... but I'm not sure if it qualifies as being an expert yet. I perhaps know the work better and more interested because she is one of the few American writers to actually discuss matters of sexuality (including hentai) in an academic way that could be very useful to Wikipedia. Here's the link to the academia site (not great, I know).[2] Though her blog mirrors the academia and might be suitable for a mention as an informed opinion.[3] My issue is that Japanese discussion of feminism is very different from American discussion; I know I've seen more than blog posts and forum talk about such topics, but all the good sources are book only for this type of thing. Yale I think has a few on record, but I'm not able to get access either. As much as I wish to have multiple high quality sources; if I can't re-read them and provide sourcing information I cannot even consider using them. Oh... and for the record, I disagree with Clements on a LOT of things, but the UK is the UK and expert "apologist" discussion is still acceptable. ProtoDrake; you don't happen to have access to JSTOR though; right? ChrisGualtieri (talk) 14:48, 15 June 2013 (UTC)

I did another tweak to the Arena Homme Plus mention; citing another source from Highbeam that is more indepth than ANN. A 12 page feature is really big, but it also gives some unique bits from those involved. Also; they were displaying Prada (another HUGE name) which essentially cements a key cultural claim in its own right. ChrisGualtieri (talk) 15:03, 15 June 2013 (UTC)

We still need consensus on the image. But at this point. I dont care. Anything to avoid this situation. If you can find more info on international cosplay, the need for the image would rise. Making these allegations pointless. Thats all im saying.Lucia Black (talk) 17:05, 15 June 2013 (UTC)

I indented and spaced your post for clarity as it rammed your post into mine and fixed your removal of a space in my post making a typo.[4] I don't know what "allegations" you refer to, but I didn't even refer to you at all. You have made personal attacks here and been hostile. This is your last warning. Stick to content. ChrisGualtieri (talk) 01:58, 16 June 2013 (UTC)

there is no such personal attack. You dont know what a personal attack is. Im saying add more info on how Lightning is some sort of international sensation, so that the cosplay image can be more relevant.Lucia Black (talk) 02:20, 16 June 2013 (UTC)

I assert you did; so you will cease doing so; you've gotten many warnings. You comments like "poisoning the discussion" and constant use of "making allegations" is patently false. You will stop this immediately; just like I should not be having to check your posts to ensure the integrity of mine. This is not up for discussion; you make it extremely difficult to work with you. Coming from someone who repeatedly and constantly makes personal attacks; your denial means nothing when its in the very policy. "Insulting or disparaging an editor is a personal attack regardless of the manner in which it is done" you have done this dozens of times and I should not need to remind you constantly that the claim I am "poisoning the discussion" is a personal attack. To say I inserted false material is also a personal attack, because the source matches the claim. That is final. I should not come back from researching Lightning to view this page and find personal attacks directed at me every single turn; I don't even have to be in the discussion for you to disparage me. Your failure to understand NPA has been explained a dozen times to you; if I take offense its because your professed hatred for me and desire for "justice" are themselves assertions of bad-faith. I will not tolerate you to make repeated personal attacks on me in edit summaries or here. Understood? Now, I'm going to be improving this article, you can either help discuss the subject raised or you can sit this one out. I'm going to site Cosmodo for the cosplay; you do not seem to have an objection to that. Or am I mistaken? I don't want anymore issues with BRD; I'm giving you every opportunity to raise objections to my sources listed before I insert them. ChrisGualtieri (talk) 02:43, 16 June 2013 (UTC)

when I say your poisoning a discussion, thats not a personal attack. Also the allegations are done by me. I thought I made it clear. Regardless...how I feel about you and my search for justice and whether I have any form of faith in you is irrelevant to this discussion. Your the one bringing it up, not me. Regardless, cosplaying in general isnt noteworthy of lightning herself. Lightning being an international is, and has to be accepted by more than 1 source.Lucia Black (talk) 03:06, 16 June 2013 (UTC)

Claiming I'm poisoning anything is a personal attack; period. Since you do not seem to have any objections to the source, I'll be adding it. And professional cosplay is indeed notable; its got a magazine base on it and even conventions dedicated to it. REIKA; who is a professional cosplayer; and is featured in that source provided; as well as many others. I don't want this page to be about REIKA, but in all fairness your objection is baseless. The source may be lacking a lot of nitty gritty fine detail, but it shows many professional examples of cosplay from around the world and gives attribution to each; subjective opinion of "best" is avoided entirely and I instead noted possibly the easiest way to prove that claim without ref bombing the article. A dozen refs would be problematic; but I could add the Cosmodo one if you wish, but I don't know if their is a good detailed one on any singular outfit for Lightning by any singular cosplayer. Its sort of a mix bag and I don't have access to them. ChrisGualtieri (talk) 03:35, 16 June 2013 (UTC)

No their not. Its like using NPA out of mere accusation of NPA related. And you never quote NPA compared to other policies. And you mentioned personal thing irrelevant to this discussion which is an offense of WP:NPA per linking external events to attack an editor. So yes, its completely valid to say you're poisoning a discussion if youre making false assumptions about me and bringing up irrelevant issues.

Again, specific cosplaying isnt linked to Lightning, im against any info about specific cosplay because, again, their not related to lightning's cultural impact. If the source was referring to how lightning has been an international cosplay sensation (or something of the sort), it would be relevant because its more related to Lightning's cultural impact on fans. There are dosens of professional cosplayers being cited for their representation of that charaacter, but thats just how cosplay is. No different from AMVs or fanart.Lucia Black (talk) 03:50, 16 June 2013 (UTC)

I'd love to point out that Sony used Theresa (a Hong Kong idol) to market the PS3 dressed up as Lightning in two separate videos, alas the video's 404ed (cause it was 2009), but you can still find the brief mentions of them. If the video was live maybe I'd use it. Cosplay is very valid for a single sentence mention or two; but you just don't like it. Its a cultural art form that is not limited to DAers or otherwise. After all it was idol Yuko Oshima who drew up the design, tested the game and wore the outfit at the event for XIII-2. [5] Too bad it was Sarah's....but I am sure it deserves a mention in her section. You seem to be difficult without reason and that's not how Wikipedia works; already I've noted Lightning official cosplay; Cosmode featured cosplayers; cited an example of international professional cosplayers, advertisments using Lightning and I just went and added a source about Lightning being officially the first female protagonist in the Final Fantasy series... while I don't think that is "culturally" important, but I may work on it more later. ChrisGualtieri (talk) 04:08, 16 June 2013 (UTC)

But cultural aspect of cosplay is so universal to any anime, video games and other things that, citing Lightning, isnt going to fly as something relevant to Lightning specifically. WP:IDONTLIKEIT implies simply not liking something, im not liking how its handled. Theres a difference. If you found more sources of Lightning being an international hit of cosplay or something of the sort, it would be completely different. Because she made a cultural impact to cosplay itself. But if just citing primary cosplay magazines for specific cosplays of Lightning, its stretching the relevance rather thin.Lucia Black (talk) 05:33, 16 June 2013 (UTC)

Again; you are wrong. Do you even understand what you are talking about? How in the world is Cosmode "primary"? Listen; ignorance is one thing; but being blind to it is another. REIKA is a professional cosplayer; and is included in that link alone with others like Yuuri-C (two famous cosplayer twins) some of which are also have been featured in Cosmode. A victory in the Cosmode submissions warrants special inclusion and quite frankly; if you look up the people in that link you will see they are professional level; picture caption matches the claim. Got it? I don't want to insert a bunch of little ones like this if a better singular source matches it, but if you look for 5 minutes you will see plenty of them. For the source provided it matches the claim. If you don't think individuals like REIKA are professional, but all means check out the world cosplay submissions.[6] Reika was a guest of honor at Cosplay Mania previously, but has a long history as being a top-tier cosplayer.[7] So whatever; you don't like it, but the essay WP:JDLI points out that Wikipedia does not work based on emotional objections. So if you have a problem; back it up with policy. ChrisGualtieri (talk) 13:37, 16 June 2013 (UTC)

I've added the two winners from Cosmode's CURExCOSMODE Contest; I may be missing one or two here, but I put "at least two occasions" as a result. If anyone knows about the other contests; please double check it, but I cannot confirm whether or not Lightning has only appeared twice. This alongside the other links absolutely backs up the "popular subject of cosplay" claim. I'd love to use a professional example; but permission is required, I might ask one later to submit something for OTRS if we get this to GA. ChrisGualtieri (talk) 14:14, 16 June 2013 (UTC)

break

You're not listening at all. Enough about Reika. I never once mentioned Reika, you always do this, you make a huge assumption off of one comment, and even after I dismiss it, you continue said assumption. This isnt WP:ILIKEIT. The reasons are REAL, and NOT SUBJECTIVE. The issue is that specific cosplayers (professional or not) is not a cultural impact made by Lightning as a character. So it doesnt matter what all those votes are, because their not voting for "Lightning" their voting for the person who portrayed Lightning best.

That's what im trying to tell you, specific Lightning cosplays =/= key cultural impact by Lightning. International sensation of Lightning happen to be cosplay (it just happens to be cosplay in this situation, but this could be any form of pop culture) = culture impact by lightning.

Ill repeat myself. specific cosplay of lightning even by professionals isnt proving any form of impact. If you could cite that she is a sensation internationally. Its more like WP:ILIKEIT because this is more about the image, than info. Image isnt really needed at all. Its necessity would be more relevant if more info cited Lightning as a factor of cosplay in general, NOT specific lightning cosplay.Lucia Black (talk) 14:18, 16 June 2013 (UTC)

You don't understand; and its why you repeat yourself. You do not understand cosplay's role and you do not understand "culture" either. Sony has used cosplay of Lightning and other various characters to promote themselves and even had the events hosted by cosplayers. Cultural impact includes the character's popularity and expression by groups of people. It continues to be relevant in society; beyond any mere avatar or analog. I am limiting myself from putting every notable instance into this article and avoiding all conventions in this matter which play a major role in many and in some cases are dedicated to the very idea. This is again an example of your WP:IDHT mentality. Lightning's insertion into the culture indeed covers cosplay because the consumption of goods and leisure activities; has become a focus for idealism and artistic pursuit of a craft. Romantics indeed consider the first half part of the cultural definition and the second is the more the conventional aspect of culture; so by either account cosplay is indeed part of the cultural impact of the character and such examples on an international level show this. Now; please stop the circular argument; or it is likely I'll just keep adding more references and examples until it becomes unbalanced. I think its fine the way it is right now. ChrisGualtieri (talk) 14:51, 16 June 2013 (UTC)

Ok. Saying I dont know culture, is a personal attack. Lightning inserting as part of a culture, isnt note worthy, if its typical with anime, manga, tv shows, video games. If we look hard enough, we can find cosplay info on all notable characters. But that doesnt mean cosplay is noteworthy of that character. Your stretching your subjective views on cosplay and try to turn it as a reason why its noteworthy, when it isnt. Cosplayers still a hobby/entertainment/pop culture.

The point is, the cosplay doesnt prove any notable impact other than being international,butt citing individual cosplay events such as competitions and winners, just because the fan who won idolizes the character they decided to cosplay as. The competition is still about how they portray them not how much they idolize the character. And ive been to dozens of conventions to know cosplaying isnt always idolizing, but a business aswell, and some just a hobby.

but subjectivity aside, cosplaying cites the cosplayers first, not Lightning nor her impact in culture. Trying to add it all up and make it significant wont help either, because its basing on inferences, not pure fact.

I accept the ref of international, not the competition. But that one ref isnt enough to show a Lightning cosplayer (professional and amateur) image in the link. Its like you only want the image, not the notability.Lucia Black (talk) 16:44, 16 June 2013 (UTC)

OH FOR GOODNESS SAKE, YOU TWO! This is getting out of hand. All you two are doing is going over and over the same points again and again. This is not helping get the article into a fit state, this is simply dragging out into a long argument. If the information is so contentious and can't be backed up, then remove it (and the image if needs be). If good references can be found, then find them, put them in and stop arguing. Geez! --ProtoDrake (talk) 16:53, 16 June 2013 (UTC)

With the three sources provided, I believe its completely fine now, but Protodrake why did you remove the link to Novacrystal saying its not allowed on Wikipedia; I do not see any blacklist or prohibition at RSN; it is actually better for context than ANN which references the blog post. Nova actually provided context and links to the official material itself. I don't understand why its "not allowed"; seems that it supports the more brief ANN mention. ChrisGualtieri (talk) 02:11, 17 June 2013 (UTC)

But the last two are trivial info more related to cosplayers than lightning and you know it. This is WP:ILIKEIT and trying to hide it by adding refs that dint really support.Lucia Black (talk) 02:28, 17 June 2013 (UTC)

You fail to see the point the citation backs up; Lightning is the subject of professional cosplay. I added them because these contest winners were featured in the premier magazine about cosplay. Okay? Moving on... ChrisGualtieri (talk) 04:02, 17 June 2013 (UTC)

I removed NovaCrystallis because it is a fan site. I had this out at WikiProject Square Enix and we agreed that such as site could not be used as a source here as it was equivalent to NeoGaf. Even though the information there is very good, because of how it gets there, it can't be used here. (Update: here is the consensus, which as you see goes against its use)--ProtoDrake (talk) 08:54, 17 June 2013 (UTC)

But you see the irrelevancy to Lightning. All we need to say is that lightning is a subject to cosplaying internationally. To add "professional" and to try to cite it just to back it up, doesnt really help Lightning article. Just trying too hard to prove something.

And the point is that we need more sources for international sensation in general to have the image more relevant to the article.Lucia Black (talk) 05:03, 17 June 2013 (UTC)

Fine, I'll remove the tag "professional" if you wish. But does that mean you actually want the official Playstation cosplay and Square Enix events with the cosplay cast mentioned? I can't find the video of Theresa anymore; I only get mentions of the two and they are both really brief, apparently you can see them on HK PS3 site, but it is just an ad. So I dunno at this point. ChrisGualtieri (talk) 05:23, 17 June 2013 (UTC)

Done, but tweak it as you wish. If you really want to push it we can drop the contest name part as well; for better focus, but I don't want to risk losing too much context and blurring the nature of it. ChrisGualtieri (talk) 05:27, 17 June 2013 (UTC)

Im not sure if promotional advertisement is considered as impact. But if you can find some sourcing to such went, we may need to reorganize the article. Maybe "In promotion" subsection under "Appearances" for any promotional material lightning has appeared in.Lucia Black (talk) 06:10, 17 June 2013 (UTC)

I've had a brainwave. We balance out the cosplay-image thing with the promotional thing. Use the Promotional thing that Square Enix gave at the 25th anniversary event. That would take in both. I know it's not cosplay in the strictest sense, but it's someone dressing up as Lightning. I think the article for Bayonetta has that. That, I think, might well solve the issue. And, as a bonus, people will get a good idea of what Lightning looked like in XIII-2 --ProtoDrake (talk) 15:45, 22 August 2013 (UTC)

I agree with this, because theres more promotional impact of a live-action Lightning more than "Cosplay". At the moment, its obviously an excuse to have a cosplay image in general. Right now the cosplay image overshadows the rest of the other appearances covered in that section.Lucia Black (talk) 17:35, 4 October 2013 (UTC)

Size concerns

I don't know if I want to throw this out here, but it is a RS and its a bit dramatic. According to E3 livestream, Lightning's breast size is being upped for the new game and the victory poses will change depending on the outfits; with a few comments about it being "very sexy" from our good friends at SE. I don't know how to state the obvious... but the intention is clear and the they even state they can't state the three sizes, but say this one anyways. This feels more of a Soul Calibur sort of thing... but whatever. I don't know how to address such a subject neutrally at this point. ChrisGualtieri (talk) 04:59, 16 June 2013 (UTC)

Just cite in design and concept section. Also we might have to separate "cultural impact" from the reviews and listings. It was originally named "Reception. It would be better splitting cultural impact from it.Lucia Black (talk) 05:35, 16 June 2013 (UTC)

I think I agree. The current name, taken into context with what's there, seems to paint the character in a rather bad light (quite apart from the fact that there is not a proper amount of info on analyses of her character and how she measures up to other female protagonists of that type). I won't mention any names, but I remember the edit being done by a user who was slightly notorious for something like that.--ProtoDrake (talk) 09:16, 16 June 2013 (UTC)

Found a stable source. [8] ChrisGualtieri (talk) 13:41, 16 June 2013 (UTC)

Nova site

Sorry; moving this down. If the issue an RS why not just use the primary document and skip ANN?[9] I checked ANN's source and it went to this blog. [10] Which is arguably better than ANN, but I still do not see how Nova which points to the same material is not reliable for this. We don't play this game with news outlets reposting AP sources; but Nova could be very useful as an intermediate for those who cannot read Japanese; which tells more then the ANN source about how it played out. Also suspicious is that their were a bunch of ties, suggesting low turn out and that it may not be a real good poll. ChrisGualtieri (talk) 12:09, 17 June 2013 (UTC)

I would not be too worried about it being used as the source of an English translation of something from a Famitsu article or a blog post in Japanese. But as a primary source on the level of IGN, DualShockers, Gematsu and so on, it's a bit too on the edge of what's acceptable. But other users need to speak on this. Not a primary source, but as a secondary source for English versions of posts in Japanese, French and other languages (the people behind it can translate those languages with a degree of fluency and without Google Translate mistakes)? --ProtoDrake (talk) 13:21, 17 June 2013 (UTC)

The primary source is allowed and is not a problem. You seem to be forgetting WP:PRIMARY explicitly allows this material. Its not subject to "translation errors" or subjective claims because the characters names are just in katakana; its not in the least bit subjective. If you want the best source you go with the primary for these; ANN should be the "translation" source. ChrisGualtieri (talk) 13:28, 17 June 2013 (UTC)

its better to use the third party source if deemed reliable and links to the original article. This is an english wikipedia, therefore we should provide english sources when possible.Lucia Black (talk) 19:02, 17 June 2013 (UTC)

Infobox image

Given that there's a piece of concept art there with the same outfit (but which can be useful as part of the commentary on the character), I was thinking that maybe we should change the image in the infobox. Maybe use her default appearance in Lightning Returns, as that one seems to be making the most of an impression. I am asking this before the article comes under a GA scrutaneer's eye (which I will one day, of that I am sure). So, what do you think? Stick with what we've got, or have two different looks that are both talked about and of interest in the article? --ProtoDrake (talk) 12:28, 22 August 2013 (UTC)

Given the early concept character art being almost identical, I'd do it. ChrisGualtieri (talk) 12:34, 22 August 2013 (UTC)

@ProtoDrake: I contest this. her original design is much more iconic, and also note that is just one of her many costumes used in Lightning Returns, so its not really a great image to use. Plus its harder to spot the differences between the original concept and the final draft used in the actual XIII game.Lucia Black (talk) 10:45, 18 October 2013 (UTC)

I understand your issue. But I remembered something about two character images depicting similar outfits or whatever being something that wasn't encouraged in articles (especially potential and actual GAs), so I thought.. And you're right, it may be her primary costume, but she has 80 plus including variations on base outfits. Guess the old image will have to be used. --ProtoDrake (talk) 11:01, 18 October 2013 (UTC)

Actually, the Lightning Returns pic was fine. --Niemti (talk) 14:43, 24 October 2013 (UTC)

Her original design is better to use as its been used more often from other games.Lucia Black (talk) 15:33, 24 October 2013 (UTC)

It's also already shown. In the same pose. Twice. --Niemti (talk) 17:43, 24 October 2013 (UTC)

Concept image may be roughly the same as current infobox image, but it shows details that were altered or removed in the final art (which forms an important part of the "Character design" section). And as to having three images of the character in the same attire, the cosplay image can be removed without any major repercussions. I have to admit that the current infobox image looks better than the one in her primary Lightning Returns attire. --ProtoDrake (talk) 18:03, 24 October 2013 (UTC)

I meant the collage, it's 2 pictures in this image, and one of them is pretty much identical. --Niemti (talk) 18:14, 24 October 2013 (UTC)

Ah, the collage. Sorted. although when I go to the file itself, it looks rather wonky. Not sure what happened, but I hope it sorts itself out. --ProtoDrake (talk) 18:42, 24 October 2013 (UTC)

@ProtoDrake:I also agree the cosplay image should be removed, there's not much of any info of her making an impact on cosplay other than a small comment saying she's been cosplayed internationally (the rest are not related to lightning as they are cosplayers who participated in contest and won coincidentally using lightning's likeness, not saying anything specific to lightning in general). I think a collage would work nicely in the appearance section where it would have bot XIII-2 and Lightning Returns Appearance.Lucia Black (talk) 19:46, 24 October 2013 (UTC)

Yes, that could be the answer. Don't think we can do artworks, but two screenshots from each game side-by-side, like with the two version of Final Fantasy XIV in the development section of A Realm Reborn, could work. As to finding the screenshots, the character's page on the FF wiki has a veritable cornucopia of them, plenty to chose two suitable specimens from. That is if we go down that route, which sounds the best. It worked in the article for Cloud Strife.--ProtoDrake (talk) 20:16, 24 October 2013 (UTC)

I don't see how that would work for cloud, he only has one costume in the final fantasy series. Regardless, i also want to talk about removing the cosplay image aswell.Lucia Black (talk) 01:54, 25 October 2013 (UTC)

As to Cloud, I meant using a screenshot from a game/film to illustrate a change in appearance. Sorry I wasn't clear on that. And as to the cosplay image, since it and the info linked to its subject matter are adding relatively little and, if anything, is a mite intrusive, I've removed it and the references referring to it. If a different consensus is reached about the info, it can be put back in. --ProtoDrake (talk) 07:52, 25 October 2013 (UTC)

Move these 2 random citations out of the lead

--Niemti (talk) 18:06, 4 October 2013 (UTC)

GA Review

This review is transcluded from Talk:Lightning (Final Fantasy)/GA1. The edit link for this section can be used to add comments to the review.

Reviewer: PresN (talk · contribs) 17:38, 30 October 2013 (UTC)

Claiming this review; I'll be starting on it shortly. --PresN 17:38, 30 October 2013 (UTC)

Images

Four fair-use, which is pushing it. The sizes of the images is fine, and I agree with using the FF13 image as the lead, but the fair-use rationales should be more detailed- not just "to give the reader a look at the character", but "to depict Lightning in the way she is typically seen in her original incarnation. The visual depiction of the character is critical to the topic of the character's article, and cannot be fully replaced witha textual description.", or something to that effect.

Stability

There's a lot of edits since the article was nominated, but none in the last few days and no edit wars, so stable.

Lead

• "She is the sole playable character Lightning Returns" - in
• "She took the code name "Lightning" to escape the vulnerabilities and insecurities of her former self" - "former self" is awkward, maybe "She took the code name "Lightning" to distance herself from her vulnerabilities and insecurities"
• That last link is redirecting

Character design

• re-link Nomura and Toriyama; links in the lead don't count towards double-linking
• "Nomura could include far more detail in her design" - "than characters for previous games"
• "due to spacing issues" - space issues isn't the same thing as spacing issues
• "in the sequel, Isamu Kamikokuryo did the final design" - just Kamikokuryo, you've already said his name
• "Interestingly, her outfit was redone" - Drop the interestingly, it's a WP:EDITORIALIZING term without any meaning- if it wasn't interesting you wouldn't have mentioned it.
• science-fiction is just science fiction, no hyphen
• "atmosphere: the final design" - semicolon, not colon
• "Her outfit in Lightning Returns was designed by Tetsuya Nomura" - just Nomura
• I like the wording on Note 1; that really doesn't make sense the way he said it, does it.
• Link FF7, you haven't done so yet
• why not link videogamer.com and 1UP.com?
• Since the ref is dead I can't check, but for ' "serious," "unforgiving," "relentless," and "a kind of individualistic person," in direct contrast', you don't stick the comma inside the quote mark unless the original quote had a period there. (so, "serious", "unforgiving", "relentless", and "a kind of individualistic person", in direct contrast
• "In a later interview, it was stated" - number 1, who stated that, and number 2, the source for this sentence doesn't say that at all.

Appearances

• "In Final Fantasy XIII: Episode Zero: Promise" - say what this is: is it DLC? A short story?

Link the FF13, FF13-2, and LR:FF13 that start their respective paragraphs

• "as a l'Cie - a human" - despite what I'm doing in this review, it should be an unspaced mdash: "as a l'Cie—a human", and the same after "limit"
• "rescued by Oerba Yun Fang and the Cavalry" - define what the Cavalry is
• "Final Fantasy XIII: Episode i" - again, define what this is
• "as a direct result of Etro" - "the Goddess Etro"
• You can link Final Fantasy in Itadaki Street Mobile to Fortune Street (or create a redirect)
• " Lightning and other characters from Final Fantasy XIII-2, were featured in" - no comma

Reception

• Right at the end, link PAX Prime 2013 to Penny Arcade Expo

Other

• Makes me happy to see someone else using list-defined-refs (i.e. having the references all in the references section instead of scattered through the article)
• Your dates are all inconsistent in the references- pick either yyyy-mm-dd (e.g. 2013-10-30) or Month day, year (e.g. October 30, 2013). Pretty sure that dd-mm-yyyy is not a valid format, nor is mm/dd/yyyy, since they can get confusing to american/european readers.
• Also, either have all authors be last name, first name, or first last - you're doing both. Last, first is preferred. (in the reference, do |last=name |first=name
• Fix the allcaps in ref 1
• ref 2 - the translation link is dead
• Link IGN, RPGamer, Famitsu, Game Informer, etc. consistently in references
• Pick either Andriasang or Andriasang.com, you're using both
• Ref 13 needs a publisher (microsoft)
• ref 22 is dead
• Ref 32,36,47- you link the dev/consoles for these quotes, but no others- be consistent
• re 39 - I'm cringing at using some random person's blog as a translation source
• ref 40 - needs a publisher (Sony)
• Ref 60,62 - author
• ref 95 -link Forbes, and italicize since it's a magazine too

And that's it! I think it's all doable, so I'll put the nomination on hold while you work on it. --PresN 19:38, 30 October 2013 (UTC)

I think I've done them all. I did my best with the image infoboxes, but doing that kind of thing is not my forte. Maybe you could find someone who can do that kind of thing if it's still not acceptable. If not, we can talk about how the images can be sorted out. I did what you said about the authors, except where it was a single-word pseudonym (Siliconera) or multiple authors (IGN Best FF Characters). Oh, by the way, is there anything wrong with this reference on what a professional blogger thought of the character? Niemti deleted it without explanation. (I put it back in, then removed it as I thought the matter should be settled before it was returned or left out). --ProtoDrake (talk) 21:57, 30 October 2013 (UTC)

Well, you missed a bunch of date formatting, but I just did it myself. Looks good, overall! Good job getting to them all so quickly.

As far as the source goes, yeah, that's no good. That site doesn't pay it's writers, and accepts contributions from anyone who is a halfway-decent writer that submits stuff the owners like. They're not a "professional blogger" - they're a grad student who posts essays at a few sites, so there's nothing that makes the site in general or the post in specific as an RS. If you have anything that contradicts that, like RSs referring to the site as good, or the specific writer having some notability that's one thing, but without that, no.

Since everything is done, I'm going to pass the article. Consider archiving all of the online sources- it's a pain to do, but it's a bigger pain to track down/make archive links once the urls are dead. Not a requirement though, by any means. --PresN 22:47, 30 October 2013 (UTC)

Homosexual Influence?

I remember reading this great article which covered the Japanese developers for Final Fantasy and their influence from homosexual communities and fashion styles. This is especially true for the upcoming Final Fantasy 15 game, which depicts characters with obvious, strong, heavy, homosexual-influenced attire. Does anyone remember these articles? This topic was being discussed on several news sites back in 2013 or 2014.Crystal.seed (talk) 06:41, 29 April 2016 (UTC)

Here is something[[11]] which mentions homosexual relationships in FF13. I am also trying to compile sources which reveal the direct copy of Lightnings female face which was perfectly copied from another male FF character. I would like to include this image comparing Lightnings female face to male counterpart on the main article without debate. The image alone speaks for itself and does not need sources, because the evidence is perfectly clear and there is literally no possible room for debate. But I still would like any information you could find. I need more sources because I plan to compile a great new page specifically related to Homosexuality in the Final Fantasy Series of video games and would also like to include this relevant information throughout every single existing Final Fantasy article beginning with FF10. I also think this is relevant enough to include this information within the Homosexuality in Japan article too. Crystal.seed (talk) 17:39, 29 April 2016 (UTC)

There is no possible way to disagree about Lightnings face being an exact copy from a male character. Please, if you have any argument against this, I would definitely love to hear it. Crystal.seed (talk) 18:25, 29 April 2016 (UTC)

"I don't need sources because I have a picture" -> a great way to get your edits reverted. You need sources for any information, full stop. In this case, it won't be too hard, there were plenty of articles about how Lightning has a female version of Cloud's face, you just need to find one that's reliable, and write it up in a neutral way (peacock terms like "it's obvious" don't fly).

As to the "homosexuality in Final Fantasy" article, well, if you can build up the sources, sure, but I really doubt it. You may be able to find enough to make a section in the main Final Fantasy series article, but you will need actual reliable sources to back it up, not just statements about how it's obvious that Lightning is gay because her characer model is similar to Cloud's from Advent Children. --PresN 19:30, 29 April 2016 (UTC)

Are you acting on emotion? The image itself is direct evidence. This is a rare case where the image itself actually is a valid source. Please use common sense. Common sense actually trumps official rules. This is actually stated on wikipedia rules. Please think before you edit. I have presented valid evidence. Please stay on topic and respond only to the validity of this evidence. If you have nothing useful to contribute, then please stay out. Please do not revert my post again, you are being disruptive. Crystal.seed (talk) 19:39, 29 April 2016 (UTC)

A photoshopped image is not a reliable source. Yes, Lightning's character model's face is very similar to Cloud's from Advent Children. I agree, that is obvious. What is not obvious is that Lightning was explicitly designed to look like a female version of Cloud. To make that statement, you need an actual source that states that, and you need a source no matter how many times you say that you don't. --PresN 19:45, 29 April 2016 (UTC)

You are labeling this image as "photoshoped". Yes, the image is altered, that is made obvious, what is your exact point here? The image is a side by side comparison which perfectly compares the two. And there is proof that the design was copied from a male, because 'Cloud' came first, before lightning. Crystal.seed (talk) 19:50, 29 April 2016 (UTC)

• Strong Oppose - per WP:OR and WP:FRINGE. Sergecross73 msg me 19:54, 29 April 2016 (UTC)

(edit conflict) Sometimes things look like other things. You need a reliable source in order to make the statement that one was copied form the other just because it came after. "Anonymous guy on the internet says it's obvious" isn't a source. "A picture that looks pretty likely" isn't a source. Please read WP:RS. You need to cite a reliable source, as in an actual, fact-checked website or book or interview or something that says "Lightning's appearance was designed to be female version of Cloud, it's not a coincidence". I don't know how to make that clearer. --PresN 19:57, 29 April 2016 (UTC)

This is a reliable source, you are parroting official rules when I have already made clear this is obvious and common sense does apply here. The evidence I have provided is valid. I would also like to point to the fact that all the quotes from the people in the 'Influence' portion of this article are made by people who have vested interests (mostly financial) how is this fair? You guys are thoroughly being disruptive. Crystal.seed (talk) 20:03, 29 April 2016 (UTC)

Your observations from a photo shopped image is the definition of original research. You clearly have no understand on Wikipedia's policy on sources and original research. Sergecross73 msg me 20:16, 29 April 2016 (UTC)

• Nominator has been blocked for sockpuppetry and disruption, but strong oppose just for the record. WP:FRINGE-y and unsupported by reliable sources. Satellizer el Bridget ^(Talk) 02:49, 1 May 2016 (UTC)

Cherry Picked Reception?

Just read the 'Reception' portion of this article, and it's very obvious and border lining advertisement for this game. Many fans from the series, since the days of PlayStation 1, regard Final Fantasy 13 (and everything associated with it, including characters) as a total failure. I believe I can find many sources for this, but there is also an inherent difference between the mainstream game journalism and legitimate fan reception. It is very well known that video game journalism is a heavily payed-off field, and very biased. This is completely obvious. Which is why it's very easy to source these biased opinions and difficult to find sources on a truthful reception. I also believe the author(s) of the 'Reception' portion are purposely exploiting this inherent difference between users and journalism. Crystal.seed (talk) 06:55, 29 April 2016 (UTC)

The reception portions basically tries to keep criticism to a minimum, or even excuse feelings of criticism. There is nothing which voices the the actual feelings many fans had for this character. Crystal.seed (talk) 07:02, 29 April 2016 (UTC)

Between this and the above section, I think you are really missing the idea of WP:RS - we source information from reliable sources. We can't say that "player feedback to Lightning was negative - (source, some 16 year old on GameFaqs)", we need an actual reliable source that discusses the player response. Sometimes that means that, if player response is different than critical response, the articles only reflect the latter, but on the flip side, it means we don't talk about how "everyone and their dog hated the game" because anonymous forum posters didn't like it, and note in the next sentence that it has an 83 on metacritic and sold over 10 million copies. --PresN 19:34, 29 April 2016 (UTC)

Do you wish to debate the reliability of these sources? What part of "biased" did you not understand? Crystal.seed (talk) 19:47, 29 April 2016 (UTC)

Wikipedia:Identifying reliable sources: "Articles should be based on reliable, third-party, published sources with a reputation for fact-checking and accuracy." Is there a particular source that you feel is not reliable? Because it seems liek you're saying "all video game reviewers are "biased" (aka they liked things I don't like/people on GameFaqs don't like) and therefore are not reliable" which isn't really how things work. It's perfectly fine to add a bit about general players not liking the FF13 games or Lightning to the relevant articles, but you have to source it to a reliable source. --PresN 19:52, 29 April 2016 (UTC)

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