Talk:January 2022 Burkina Faso coup d'état

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Requested move 24 January 2022[edit]

The following is a closed discussion of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on the talk page. Editors desiring to contest the closing decision should consider a move review after discussing it on the closer's talk page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

The result of the move request was: Among the arguments, the Supports have been almost uniform in their reasoning -> Burkina Faso is more recognisable and and a much wider common name than Burkinabé (or let alone Burkinabè), which in fact was hardly contested by anyone here. The supports outnumbered the opposes 2:1. Now, the Oppose arguments have suggested other targets for moving this article (not much support as far as I've seen). I've also considered the WP:CONSISTENT argument, but a counter-example of United Kingdom (instead of British) and United States (instead of American) was proposed, so there is little agreement over whether the proposed title is any more consistent than the current one. Because such titles already exist without any problems, I assume they are already grammatically fine. Burkinabé (or Burkinabè, to be exact) is probably better grammar-wise but is much more rarely used, even if we exclude all usages of "Burkina Faso" as a noun. Basing on this, I see no reasons to deny the move request and I will state that there is consensus for moving the articles. This is not in any way to undermine the use of the Burkinabé adjective, but we are supposed to follow the English-language sources during these discussions. The articles will be moved accordingly. (non-admin closure) Szmenderowiecki (talk) 19:15, 31 January 2022 (UTC) Szmenderowiecki (talk) 19:15, 31 January 2022 (UTC)[reply]

– Per WP:COMMONNAME and WP:RECOGNIZE. As far as I can tell the demonym "Burkinabé" is not very widely used these days, particularly when describing coups of this nature. Compare Google search "burkina faso coup" which receives 41,100 hits on my browser, vs "burkinabe coup" with just 71 results. "Burkina Faso coup" also matches usage in reliable sources, e.g. [1][2][3] See also Talk:2019 San Marino general election for a recent example of a similar move from an "unfamiliar" demonym to the common usage of simply using the country name.  — Amakuru (talk) 14:37, 24 January 2022 (UTC)[reply]

Oppose I know a bit about this subject. Burkinabé is the grammatically correct term, and I use it in articles when talking about Burkina Faso. It's essentially the difference betwenn "2022 France coup d'etat attempt" versus "2022 French coup d'etat attempt". Dunutubble (talk) 02:26, 25 January 2022 (UTC)[reply]
  • Oppose Neither the current titles nor the proposed titles are the WP:COMMONNAME of these events, and as such we are using a descriptive name. In that case, I see no reason to avoid using the correct descriptive name, and redirects will prevent any readers from getting lost. BilledMammal (talk) 02:42, 25 January 2022 (UTC)[reply]
  • Move all- As this is English Wikipedia, country name should be common name which English users and editors should be easy to understand. -- Wendylove (talk) 09:04, 25 January 2022 (UTC)[reply]
  • Oppose on WP:CONSISTENT grounds. Other recent coup d'état articles use the adjective form, such as 2021 Guinean coup d'état, October–November 2021 Sudanese coup d'état, 2021 Malian coup d'état. Don't see a compelling reason to deviate. WP:RECOGNIZABLE can also be interpreted in the opposite direction: someone familiar with Burkina Faso will know that the adjective is BurkinabéBurkinabè (edit: now prefer "è" to "é", see SallyJellySallyJelly below). Pilaz (talk) 11:09, 25 January 2022 (UTC)[reply]
    While I get what your saying about oppossing it on WP:CONSISTENT grounds, there are already coup pages that don't follow with the adjective form like the 2021 Myanmar coup d'état, but if you really want to be consistant, we could also use a more easier Demonym for Burinka Faso.. (thisisahumanboi) 17:09, 27 January 2022 (UTC)[reply]
While what your saying is true, if you look more closely no the articles of the past coups in Myanmar, they all use the denonym "Burmese".1962 Burmese coup d'état 8888_Uprising#SLORC_coup_and_crackdown. I think that because Burma is now officialy called Myanmar, and there's still some controversy around the usage of the term Burma, Myanmar was used instead when referring to the 2021 coup. But that's only my guess. --Magnetizedlion27 (talk) 04:11, 28 January 2022 (UTC)[reply]
  • Support — move all as per the relavent support by the nominee. Utkarsh555 (talk) 12:28, 25 January 2022 (UTC)[reply]
  • Move all - Burkina Faso is the WP:RECOGNIZABLE, no doubt about that. AWESOMEDUDE0614 (talk) 12:24, 25 January 2022 (UTC)[reply]
  • Move all - per above discussion Truthanado (talk) 16:20, 25 January 2022 (UTC)[reply]
  • Oppose 1) searching "Burkina Faso coup" will redirect to "Burkinabé coup", so it's not like readers will be in a muddle, and it's not like we are dolts who can't put two and two together 2) it's simply more consistent 3) it's just not right! I would venture that once the dust settles, future specialist sources will refer to this by its "proper" name Kingoflettuce (talk) 16:42, 25 January 2022 (UTC)[reply]
  • Move all - compare with 2021 Myanmar coup d'état which also avoids using an unfamiliar demonym jonas (talk) 17:42, 25 January 2022 (UTC)[reply]
  • Move all - "Burkinabe" is a technical and unfamiliar term like "Montenegrin", "Sammarinese", or "Ni-Van". Burkina Faso is much more common, and since this is a mainstream article, the most familiar term should be used. Also, it is at least reasonably official, as the BBC uses the term [[4]].PtolemyXV (talk) 18:01, 25 January 2022 (UTC)[reply]
  • Move all I agree with the above and I was going to link specific sources to back up Burkina Faso, but basically all English language articles I found refer to this event as Burkina Faso and never mention the term Burkinabe.Yeoutie (talk) 19:16, 25 January 2022 (UTC)[reply]
  • Move all per nom. FredModulars (talk) 23:48, 25 January 2022 (UTC)[reply]
  • Move all i dont know what im doing but I agree for the same reason, more common name Redoct87 (talk) 05:15, 26 January 2022 (UTC)[reply]
  • Move all I agree with the proposal; the title of an article should 1) correspond to names most commonly cited in reliable sources 2) enable the public to locate the information they are looking for. Bobhowards (talk) 05:26, 26 January 2022 (UTC)[reply]
  • Oppose per Pilaz and others as ungrmmatical, suggest alternative 2022 coup d'état in Burkina Faso. · · · Peter Southwood (talk): 06:30, 26 January 2022 (UTC)[reply]
    It's unlikely to be "ungrammatical" if reliable sources such as the BBC and countless others are using it. For better or worse, "Burkina Faso" serves as both a noun and an adjective in common usage these days. The alternative suggestion would be inconsistent with numerous other articles on similar topics. Cheers  — Amakuru (talk) 13:47, 26 January 2022 (UTC)[reply]
  • Move all. There are plenty of instances in which a word or phrase may not be grammatically correct but is, regardless, understood. I see no reason why this should not fall under the same banner. Additionally, I see no problem with not using the correct adjectival form of Burkina Faso here. Someone else in this thread stated that it would be analogous to saying "2022 France coup d'etat attempt" which, frankly, I also don't see a problem with. I say move all of them. SalomeCzapiewski (talk) 16:33, 26 January 2022 (UTC)[reply]
  • Move all per nomination. Fondycardinals (talk) 17:47, 26 January 2022 (UTC)[reply]
  • Oppose per Pilaz, Dunutubble, and others. If people know that the adjective for France is French then they either know or can learn that the adjective for Burkina Faso is Burkinabé. 96.5.254.136 (talk) 18:40, 26 January 2022 (UTC)[reply]
  • Move all per nom Wikibojopayne (talk) 20:49, 26 January 2022 (UTC)[reply]
  • Oppose not because I don't want them to be renamed, but to replace Burkinabé to Burkinese, a far more easier word to pronounce in English, and it won't break WP:CONSISTENT with other names of coups with demonym due to Burkinese being an official demonym (Thisisahumanboi) 21:05, 26 January 2022 (UTC)[reply]
    I must admit I never heard the term "Burkinese" before. But maybe that's me... Dunutubble (talk) 16:40, 27 January 2022 (UTC)[reply]
  • Move all - Clarity and ease of understanding should take priority over demonym trivia. "Burkina Faso coup d'état" is immediately clear and understandable to the vast majority of readers; "Burkinabé coup d'état" is not. KingsIndian (talk) 10:31, 27 January 2022 (UTC)[reply]
  • Move all per nom. Easier to understand and while not grammatically correct, it's still not confusing; an article is not worth as much if readers cannot even interpret the title clearly. Liamyangll (talk to me! | My contribs!) 11:35, 27 January 2022 (UTC)[reply]
  • Move all. "2022 Burkina Faso coup d'état" is a compound noun. 123fendas (talk) 11:44, 27 January 2022 (UTC)[reply]
  • Strongly oppose "Burkinabè", which is never spelt as "Burkinabé", because it is grammatically incorrect, is a much more correct term. It is what the people of Burkina Faso identify with, and it is the only term mentioned and officially recognised by the Constitution of Burkina Faso. The adjective cannot be translated, it is genderless and uncountable, and it should not be modified with terminology that would make it easier for English speakers to pronounce.

Historically, the country changed its name into "Burkina Faso", combining the Mòoré and Dioula languages, specifically to push the idea of reaffirming our national identity and detaching ourselves from words of foreign origins. The adjective "Burkinabè" contains the particle -bè, from the Fulfulde language, which means "citizen of" or it describes people or other entities pertaining to Burkina Faso. It is not uncommon for people to misspell it as "Burkinabé" because it is assumed that the word's ending has a French origin.

Respectfully, if someone is able to understand, for example, that an "American coup d'état" took place in the United States, it should not be that difficult to come to the conclusion that a "Burkinabè coup d'état" took place in Burkina Faso. In an analogue way, I would never dream of writing on an article the corresponding translation of "United Statian" in my native language simply because (hypothetically) people in my country did not want to be accustomed to the correct term. SallyJellySallyJelly (talk) 11:45, 27 January 2022 (UTC)[reply]

I don't think we would call it an "American coup d'état" though, it would be the "United States coup d'état". Similar to how it's the 2020 United States presidential election, not the American one.  — Amakuru (talk) 10:22, 29 January 2022 (UTC)[reply]
If a coup were to occur in Sweden today, it would be called the ‘Swedish coup d’état’, not ‘Sweden coup d’état’. Plus, if a coup were to occur in the U.S., ‘American coup d‘état’ would not be the term since many people in central and south America consider themselves to be ‘American’ (like how French and Serbian people are European). N Panama 84534 (talk) 10:49, 29 January 2022 (UTC)[reply]
Yes, Swedish is used because it's a well-trodden and instantly recognizable demonym. The same cannot be said for Berkinabe or Sammarinese. Article title policy requires that we use recognizable and commonly-used names, not just use a little-known name just because some suit says it's more "correct" than the other form.  — Amakuru (talk) 17:42, 29 January 2022 (UTC)[reply]
  • I have a different proposal, but I do agree. "While Burkinabe might be the official and legal demonym, the official wikipedia page of Burkina Faso, [1] shows alternate demonyms like Burkinese which are also acceptable. We can also use Burkina Faso Coup d'etat, as many official groups like the Burkina Faso Football Team is not called Burkinabe Football Team." Hence, I agree with (Thisisahumanboi). We can also use a title like "Coup d'etat of Burkina Faso" like the French Wikipedia did with it's Coup d'Etat au Burkina Faso". 115.96.219.51 (talk) 12:08, 27 January 2022 (UTC)[reply]
It is the football team of the state, so saying Burkina Faso Football Team would be more correct than Burkinabe Football Team. --Magnetizedlion27 (talk) 04:11, 28 January 2022 (UTC)[reply]
  • Strongly oppose "Burkinabè" is the correct term. This is why we have redirects. To help people find articles without specifically knowing the title. Anyone searching for the 2022 Burkina Faso coup d'état attempt will find this, and they will learn the correct demonym in the process! Changing titles to terms more easily recognised by English speakers defeats the point of having redirects. I agree completely with SallyJellySallyJelly. It should just be corrected to fix the incorrect accent in Burkinabè. 192.68.163.182 (talk)

References

  1. ^ https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Burkina_Faso
  • Move All. I don't believe many people from Burkina Faso use Wikipedia, and everyone else uses "Burkina Faso" rather than "Burkinabe". I don't know even one person that uses that term, nor have I ever heard it in my whole life. This would help allay confusion. InterstateFive (talk) - just another roadgeek 01:32, 28 January 2022 (UTC)[reply]
Oppose Although I recognize that "Burkinabe" is not a term used that much by the common English-speaking individual when refering to something related to or about Burkina Faso, it is not a reason for it to not be used. It may fullfil the criteria for naturalness, but not for consistency. In the example of San Marino, we are talking about an event that has to be with the entire state, and organized by it. They are the "General elections OF San Marino". In the case of Burkina Faso, we are talking about an event that ocurred in the state, carried out by a small group of people without the approval of the state. Saying a "Coup d'etat IN Burkina Faso" is more correct than saying "Coup d'etat OF Burkina Faso". That's why I think that "San Marino General Elections" is a correct way of putting it, while saying "Burkina Faso Coup d'etat" is not. But even if this article should be titled using the name of the state, saying "2022 Coup d'etat in Burkina Faso" would be a more correct of putting it than "2022 Burkina Faso Coup d'etat". I also wanna add to this discussion that I agree with what some other users have said (BilledMammal, 192.68.163.182, Kingoflettuce) about redirecting. After all, Wikipedia is a place of creating and sharing knowledge, so showing people the correct denonyms of places such as Burkina Faso is something great for expanding our knowledge! --Magnetizedlion27 (talk) 03:34, 28 January 2022 (UTC)[reply]
  • Move All. Per nom. Most reliable sources don't call them "Burkinabe" coup d'etats. The article would also be much more accessible under the new name. Gebagebo (talk) 11:28, 28 January 2022 (UTC)[reply]
  • Move all. If you argue that "Burkinabé" is the official demonym of Burkina Faso, you might as well argue that "deutsch" is the official demonym of Germany. --2A01:C22:A50B:6E00:44CF:A51A:80A5:FED (talk) 13:36, 28 January 2022 (UTC)[reply]
  • Oppose. Per Pilaz’s reason. N Panama 84534 (talk) 09:54, 29 January 2022 (UTC)[reply]
  • Oppose move . "Burkinabé" is the correct term and demonym for Burkina Faso. User:Pilaz is also correct above. Scanlan (talk) 13:44, 29 January 2022 (UTC)[reply]
  • Oppose Burkinabé is the correct term, and is even used in the opening line of the article! Redirects are cheap, so setting up pages with both Burkinabé/Burkina Faso is the solution. Lugnuts Fire Walk with Me 19:00, 29 January 2022 (UTC)[reply]
  • Move all. Redirects are cheap, and this is an article on the English version of Wikipedia. Just use the English name, and if the French version if Wikipedia wants to, then they can be the people who make the French-language article - not us. Jsraynault (talk) 06:22, 30 January 2022 (UTC)[reply]
  • Comment I feel it is imperative to ask the view of people with specific linguistic knowledge. This is the type of case where if the majority of people pass a vote, it can lead to the wrong result. 2A02:C7F:769F:1700:6593:D143:D6BA:853C (talk) 08:48, 30 January 2022 (UTC)[reply]
Most linguists are pretty apathetic about what constitutes "correct" usage. Languages develop over time according to how they are actually used, rather than any set rules, and linguists are professionally interested in describing this rather than making judgments about what should be. My own take is that repurposing "Burkina Faso" as an adjective for the same noun is an entirely natural and expected development, seeing as the name itself consists of two words (a noun and an adjective) and both are from West African languages, meaning your average English speaker isn't going to have a clue how to derive an adjective from that name. But mostly I just think it's foolish to argue about this, because there will be redirects covering all the possibilities that the article doesn't sit at and everyone is going to be able to get where they need to. —Compassionate727 (T·C) 18:44, 30 January 2022 (UTC)[reply]

Move all - This is English Wikipedia, the country's name should be the common name which English users and editors should be easy to understand. Degen Earthfast (talk) 13:35, 30 January 2022 (UTC)[reply]

The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

Commons files used on this page or its Wikidata item have been nominated for speedy deletion[edit]

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You can see the reasons for deletion at the file description pages linked above. —Community Tech bot (talk) 10:07, 25 January 2022 (UTC)[reply]

Jihadist insurgency[edit]

I guess I'm the one who translated Jihadist insurgency in Burkina Faso from French to English, so I have a question: Why does the infobox say that the coup is part of the insurgency? This doesn't seem to be related to the Islamist uprising or even the Fulani-Mossi divide- but just curious. Dunutubble (talk) 14:11, 25 January 2022 (UTC)[reply]

minus Removed Jim Michael (talk) 18:06, 25 January 2022 (UTC)[reply]

30 September[edit]

I’m sorely afraid this article will have be be renamed to January 2022 Burkina Faso coup d'état before the day is over… 93.19.248.151 (talk) 09:50, 30 September 2022 (UTC)[reply]

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