Talk:James A. Gilmore

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Did you know nomination[edit]

The following is an archived discussion of the DYK nomination of the article below. Please do not modify this page. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as this nomination's talk page, the article's talk page or Wikipedia talk:Did you know), unless there is consensus to re-open the discussion at this page. No further edits should be made to this page.

The result was: promoted by Cwmhiraeth (talk) 05:34, 16 July 2021 (UTC)[reply]

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James A. Gilmore
James A. Gilmore
  • Reviewed: Template:Did you know nominations/Justin Clarke
  • Comment: So far this is more than a 66x expansion. This was really sad. Please let me know if the hook isn't clear enough. The Federal League was an "outlaw" minor league in 1913, as it did not adhere to the national agreement between all of the "organized" baseball leagues. Then in 1914 Gilmore led the charge against the major leagues that flopped by the end of 1915.

5x expanded by Muboshgu (talk). Self-nominated at 18:54, 18 June 2021 (UTC).[reply]

General: Article is new enough and long enough

Policy compliance:

  • Adequate sourcing: No - The sourcing is mostly to Newspapers.com. If you have a subscription, you should be able to provide a free clipping, instead of marking it as subscription only. Also, the citations should at a minimum have the article title. Another point, I don't see support for "declaring themselves to be a major league". Is it a declaration, per se, or just operating like one or challenging the majors?
  • Neutral: No - Maybe I missed it from the 1900s English or my lack of knowledge about early Organized Baseball, but I didn't see the source referring to it as a "outlaw minor league". I think I saw "independent" somewhere.
  • Free of copyright violations, plagiarism, and close paraphrasing: Yes

Hook eligibility:

  • Cited: No - While he did reorganize the league, I don't see it supported that he consciously did it "so that it could challenge ..."
  • Interesting: No - The main is promising if verifiable.
Image: Image is freely licensed, used in the article, and clear at 100px.

QPQ: No - Not done
Overall: —Bagumba (talk) 12:59, 26 June 2021 (UTC)[reply]

Bagumba, I've now clipped all of the inline sources. This one may be especially helpful in conveying what happened and what Gilmore's role in it was. The SABR bio is as well. The long and short of the story is that the Federal League was organized as a minor league but competing in big cities by someone named John T. Powers. It was considered an "outlaw" league because it didn't adhere to the national agreement that kept the other minor leagues subservient to the "major" leagues. The Federal League was struggling financially in 1913, its first season, when some of the executives of the Chicago franchise brought Gilmore into the business. Gilmore brought in some investors and took over control of the team. Later in 1913, the league owners pushed Powers out of the presidency and gave it to Gilmore. With Gilmore, the league owners declared the league to be a major league, and began to lure in stars with big salaries. They signed Joe Tinker and Mordecai Brown, and nearly had Christy Mathewson and some other stars too. They spent too much though, and couldn't sustain it after 1915. I can try to make all of this more clear, especially Gilmore's role in it, in the text.
Also, you may have missed it, but QPQ is already done and provided. – Muboshgu (talk) 19:05, 28 June 2021 (UTC)[reply]
My bad.—Bagumba (talk) 04:42, 30 June 2021 (UTC)[reply]
I just added this source, which talks about it being a major league. – Muboshgu (talk) 19:13, 28 June 2021 (UTC)[reply]

@Muboshgu: I suspect it's just a matter of citations or perhaps tweaking prose. I trust your knowledge of the league's history better than mine. Here's what I see as outstanding:

  1. For the hook, I'm not seeing the "so" supported in the article for "reorganized the Federal League so that it could challenge Major League Baseball". It's probably true, but needs to be 1) stated in prose that it was the intent 2) cited.—Bagumba (talk) 04:42, 30 June 2021 (UTC)[reply]
  2. Perhaps not directly DYK related but for general verifiability, I don't see it currently cited about "outlaw". Were there legal consequences? It's not clear from the current citations.
  3. Consider copyediting "The owners decided to challenge the American League and National League by declaring themselves to be a major league ..." It's now later stated and cited anout "pitching it as a major league". Otherwise cite or re-word the "declaring themselves" statement.

—Bagumba (talk) 04:42, 30 June 2021 (UTC)[reply]

I'll start editing on this today. I'll find some more sources that are explicit about it. Here's one that reads: To President Gilmore goes the credit of expanding a bankrupt league to eight cities and enlisting the support of great financial interests. It was the young westerner's rare manipulating genius that made this possible within a period of seven months – Muboshgu (talk) 21:58, 1 July 2021 (UTC)[reply]
Bagumba, so in addition to the above source, I've added in this edit a 1916 interview in which he explicitly says that he thought there was a need for a third major league. I have also found this 1959 article which credits the reorganization and challenge to the major leagues to Gilmore. – Muboshgu (talk) 01:14, 3 July 2021 (UTC)[reply]
And I've reworded the "declaration" sentence since I can't find an actual "declaration" per se. – Muboshgu (talk) 01:17, 3 July 2021 (UTC)[reply]
And as to the point about it being an "outlaw" league, it did go to court, but there wasn't much in terms of repurcussions. Kenesaw Mountain Landis was the judge who had the case, and he sort of punted on it. More is at Kenesaw_Mountain_Landis#Federal_League_and_Baby_Iraene_cases_(1909–1917). It did eventually reach SCOTUS, and Federal Baseball Club v. National League is the case that granted MLB its antitrust exemption. – Muboshgu (talk) 01:21, 3 July 2021 (UTC)[reply]
@Muboshgu: The inline citations still don't support "outlaw", but it seems verifiable and referred to as such by 3rd party sources, so I'm not concerned anymore about NPOV for the purpose of DYK. The remaining issue is that the article prose still does not support the hook's "so that it could challenge ..." It's probably reasonable to call it supported by The Anaconda Standard, or just reword the hook to "so that it could challenge and challenged ...", listing the events sequentially instead of stating that they were directly related. So either update the prose or hook or combination of both.—Bagumba (talk) 07:24, 4 July 2021 (UTC)[reply]

@Bagumba: I took another deep dive into newspapers.com and have determined that I had to rewrite the "challenge" aspect. Diff here. The SABR bio itself says In late December 1913, the Federals effectively announced they were for real when they signed Joe Tinker away from the majors on a three-year contract for $36,000, a huge contract for the time. and indeed there was no specific announcement from Gilmore or other other executives. So how is this? – Muboshgu (talk) 19:45, 5 July 2021 (UTC)[reply]

ALT0a ... that James A. Gilmore (pictured) reorganized the Federal League with the hopes of becoming a third major league?
@Muboshgu: For ALT0a, piping "third major league" to MLB seems a bit MOS:EGGy, especially for non-baseball fans.—Bagumba (talk) 17:19, 9 July 2021 (UTC)[reply]
@Bagumba: Striken. – Muboshgu (talk) 17:04, 10 July 2021 (UTC)[reply]
@Muboshgu: Should "baseball executive" precede "James A. Gilmore", or is your aim for intrigue with no direct mention of the sport?—Bagumba (talk) 07:39, 11 July 2021 (UTC)[reply]
@Bagumba: It can go there. It seems redundant and unnecessary to me, but I don't mind it. – Muboshgu (talk) 15:27, 12 July 2021 (UTC)[reply]
ALT0a is good to go. Deferring to the nominator to not mention the sport in the hook.—Bagumba (talk) 15:33, 12 July 2021 (UTC)[reply]
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