Talk:International Criminal Court investigation in Palestine

Temporal jurisdiction

The article cites Times of Israel stating that the date is significant because it excludes a Palestinian kidnapping the day before. But it also excludes other things such as the Beitunia killings in May for example. Most newsorgs (AP, NYT) simply report the date as being set to include the Gaza events not set to exclude anything. The Palestinians had to file an additional declaration or the default would have excluded the Gaza events and I have added a scholarly ref for this point.Selfstudier (talk) 01:31, 17 March 2021 (UTC)

Re teenagers:

https://www.theguardian.com/world/2014/sep/04/israel-charges-hussam-qawasmeh-kidnapped-teenagers-murder

"Despite the suspects' close links to Hamas, an unnamed Shin Bet officer quoted in Haaretz appeared to confirm that the agency believed the kidnapping was not directly ordered by the Hamas leadership in Gaza, but was a largely independent operation by a local cell" but let's bomb Gaza anyway?!

https://edition.cnn.com/2014/06/30/world/meast/israel-missing-teenagers/

"The teens -- Eyal Yifrach, 19; Gilad Shaar, 16; and Naftali Frankel, a 16-year-old dual U.S.-Israeli citizen -- disappeared late June 12 or early June 13 from the Jewish settlement of Gush Etzion in the West Bank, the military said." So it could be the 13th?

These refs plus the others I put in the article already suggest that the "one day before" argument and after the fact justification is nothing more than Israeli spin and therefore UNDUE.Selfstudier (talk) 16:51, 17 March 2021 (UTC)

Now, unsourced statements are being added to the article eg "Similarly, the ICC would not have jurisdiction to investigate rockets fired from the Gaza Strip into Israel as the impact does not take place in the territories." I would be most interested to see a source for this statement since multiple mainstream sources say otherwise.Selfstudier (talk) 12:03, 17 March 2021 (UTC)

status?

is there any update since april 2021? 102.223.7.9 (talk) 19:02, 14 May 2022 (UTC)

https://www.icc-cpi.int/case-records?f[0]=c_sit_code:1164 shows that victim outreach is continuing. I did see some coverage recently commenting on a perceived slow progress but I forget where. Selfstudier (talk) 22:00, 14 May 2022 (UTC)

I have added some relevant updates now, should clarify the situation partially. Selfstudier (talk) 12:10, 21 June 2022 (UTC)

Possible arrest warrants

Please add:

In April 2024, Israeli media reported the ICC is considering issuing war crimes arrest warrants against Prime Minister Benjamin Netanyahu and other top officials. Netanyahu met urgently with Strategic Affairs Minister Ron Dermer, Justice Minister Yariv Levin, and Foreign Minister Israel Katz to address the issue and to appeal to Western allies to assist.

Cheers, 87.170.194.175 (talk) 20:58, 24 April 2024 (UTC)

That's definitely notable information - thanks. I couldn't find Wikipedia-level info on the reliability of Matzav, so I used the Times of Israel report, which seems to be mainstream Israeli media. The info on whether the ICC is actually considering issue a warrant for Netanyahu is rather at the rumour level in both articles, so I put what seemed to be the more robust factual type claims that Channel 12 (Israel) and The Times of Israel assert more strongly. The claim of a governmental decision to pervert the course of justice is extremely serious; Channel 12 made the claim as its view of the facts, apparently without being worried by the risk of being accused of defamation against the government. A quote seemed safer than linking to the article perverting the course of justice, since the Israeli govt point of view is presumably that as a non-party to the Rome Statute, it doesn't recognise the court, so it has the right to interfere in the legal proceedings; a WP:RS with expert opinion would be needed for an interpretation of what Channel 12 said was the decision made at the meeting. Boud (talk) 22:44, 24 April 2024 (UTC)

In terms of long-term encyclopedic information, a rumour about who might be the subject of an arrest warrant is of minor significance, and is especially sensitive for Wikipedia in the WP:BLP sense, so there's seems little justification for that point, at least on its own. On the other hand, a governmental decision to pervert the course of justice - even if we can currently only describe it conservatively, e.g. using the quote of Channel 12/ToI to make the attribution clear - seems more likely to be long-term notable, even if the attempt to influence the court "from above" is unsuccessful. Boud (talk) 22:57, 24 April 2024 (UTC)

Thank you, Boud. It's not a "rumour". We have the confirmation. And it was Netanyahu who convened the ministers to that emergency meeting. To discuss the possibility of ICC arrest warrants being issued against himself. He was present.

• Now it reads:
• "On 16 April 2024, three Israeli government ministers held an emergency meeting with governmental legal advisors to discuss the possibility of ICC arrest warrants being issued against Israeli prime minister Benjamin Netanyahu, other senior officials, or officers of the Israeli Defense Forces. According to Channel 12, a decision was taken at the meeting that "Israel would reach out to the court and 'diplomatic figures with influence'" with the aim of blocking the issuing of arrest warrants."

• May I suggest:
• "On 16 April 2024, the Israeli government called an emergency meeting over concerns the ICC could be preparing arrest warrants against Israeli prime minister Benjamin Netanyahu, other senior officials, or officers of the Israeli Defense Forces over breaches of international law in Gaza. Netanyahu, the Foreign Minister Israel Katz, Justice Minister Yariv Levin and Strategic Affairs Minister Ron Dermer reportedly met and according to Channel 12, decided that "Israel would reach out to the court and 'diplomatic figures with influence'" with the aim of blocking the issuing of arrest warrants. Netanyahu raised the matter in his meetings with Britain’s Foreign Secretary Lord David Cameron and Germany’s Foreign Minister Annalena Baerbock, and sought their help." Cheers,--91.54.14.84 (talk) 06:36, 25 April 2024 (UTC)

Not done. Atm, this is just speculation, and the article covers it sufficiently for now, pending developments. Selfstudier (talk) 12:17, 25 April 2024 (UTC)

To the IP editor: The ToI says feared ICC warrants for PM ... potential arrest warrants ... prospect ... against Prime Minister Benjamin Netanyahu ... Jerusalem received messages indicating that such warrants could be issued. So strictly speaking, it's stronger than a rumour (it's speculation described as such - feared, potential, prospect, could be) in a reliable source, but it's too weak for this article, especially taking into account both WP:BLP and that this is a WP:CTOP.

Regarding the overall length of your proposed text, that seems to me WP:UNDUE. If/when the ICC issues arrest warrants against any Palestinians, Israelis or other nationals in the context of this investigation, those will very likely become extremely notable, especially if it concerns the head of government (formal or de facto) of Israel or of Gaza. Details of which ministers were at the meeting within the context of the overall investigation don't seem so important unless (for example) we have a notable IHL expert who asserts that this is serious in establishing intent to pervert the course of justice and that those particular ministers are legally liable; find a good source and we should consider it. As for mentioning Cameron and Baerbock, ToI only says Netanyahu raised the matter in his meetings this week; it doesn't say that one or the other of the two ministers agreed to pervert the course of justice. Boud (talk) 12:58, 25 April 2024 (UTC)

References

Hospital interview sources don't say nationality of suspects

In this edit I added {{fv}} rather than remove "Israeli" since removing "Israeli" would risk counting as a revert, violating my current WP:1RR limit. I recommend that someone remove the word "Israeli" (or replace it by "Israeli or Palestinian", even though in principle people of other nationalities could be charged, and the sources don't mention nationalities), since the sources don't guess the nationalities of the likely accused, even though they give context that the reader can use to make guesses. Boud (talk) 10:50, 30 April 2024 (UTC)

Done. Selfstudier (talk) 16:24, 30 April 2024 (UTC)