Talk:Indianapolis Motor Speedway/Archive 1

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Archive 1

No driver called Smith?

According to a motorcycle racer's article, the circuit has never been raced at by a driver/rider called Smith. Given how common the name is, I find this surprising - is it accurate?--MartinUK (talk) 00:24, 23 November 2007 (UTC)

As far as I know yes, you might want to consider a visit to your favorite physician though. However, Regan Smith, if he remains in the #01 car and in the top 35, will accomplish the feat at the Brickyard 400. 80.138.252.131 (talk) 04:53, 28 December 2007 (UTC)

Oldest race track

The article states that IMS is "the oldest surviving auto racing track in the world, having existed since 1908." I believe the Milwaukee Mile opened in 1903 and this article calls it the "oldest continuously operated motorsports track in the world."

Is there a resolution to this seeming conflict in the way the superlatives are defined (surviving v. continuously operated)?

Rdikeman 16:01, Oct 15, 2004 (UTC)

You are right. According to the MM website "Since 1903, The Milwaukee Mile has been one of the premier venues in American motorsports. It is the oldest operating motor speedway in the world, as the Indianapolis Motor Speedway began contesting events in 1911." Source
I think IMS are careful to state that they are the oldest Speedway, with Milwaukee being considered an Oval. Chalk it up to the men in marketing. Djarra 16:26, 17 Jun 2005 (UTC)

I would like to point our that Brooklands racing circiut near guildford in britain was completed in mid 1907 as a dedicated motorsport circuit, it is an oval with banking and straights. which means that IMS is not the oldest anything regardless of how it is defined. i an a complete rookie at this so i dont know how to link it but look brooklands up on this site. i only point this out because i work at brooklands museum and i know that the info on this site about it is correct. Can someone make the appropriate changes? 25 april 2008

I think oldest means longest opperating. Brooklands has died, IMS was born in 1909 and still lives, To compare these two to people. I think this is a much better source: [1]. On page 96 is said that "The 1-mile dirt oval at Indiana Stat Fairgrounds, in Indianapolis, Indiana, United States, was first used 19 July 1903, the circuit is still active today." This is the single oldest circuit in the world according to this source. Whether it's the oldest motor racing course is not confirmed but certain is that neither IMS nor the Milwaukee Mile is the oldest.Quintinohthree (talk) 09:47, 30 May 2010 (UTC)

The 2002 Indy 500 occurred after 9/11, not the 2001.

The 2001 race could hardly have come after 9/11, since it was 3 months before.

Also, the future is looking (a little) better for F1 at Indy. There will be a race in 2006. July 2, 2006, as a matter of fact. You can see this at www.indianapolismotorspeedway.com. However, the existing contract ends in 2006, and negotiations for extending the contract have not begun (and may never, who knows).

  • The 2001 United States Grand Prix was held in September. The race was later moved to June, and in 2006 is scheduled for July 2. Chr.K. 08:22, 5 December 2005 (UTC)

Updates

All updates I've thus far made this to this page have been based on data provided by commemorative programs of the events in question, the book Indianapolis 500 Chronicle by Rick Popely and L. Spencer Riggs, and the recent historical reference work Indy: Racing Before the 500 by D. Bruce Scott. All mathematical data is provided via the online English/Metric conversion resource page, http://www.sciencemadesimple.com/conversions.html.Chr.K. 08:29, 5 December 2005 (UTC)


I corrected the coordinates of the circuit. The coordinates given are for the start/finish line, taken from Google Earth.--Ciroa 17:50, 18 September 2006 (UTC)--

I eliminated the Geographic reference (it contains the same info as the coordinates and occupies the same space of the screen). --Ciroa 19:31, 6 December 2006 (UTC)

Records

I've been unable thus far to ascertain the Formula One records for qualification and race average in the United States Grand Prix from 2000-2005, for the Record section. If anyone has these, they would be appreciated. --Chr.K. 23:36, 20 December 2005 (UTC)

Indy Only Pure Auto Racing Landmark?

In review of other possible sites that might share the Speedway's designation as National Historic Landmarks, I have found no others that have existed since inception as devoted either to the development of automotive technology or to automotive racing purposes in general. As such, I am putting in the statement that Indianapolis is unique among racing facilities for such fact, until someone proves otherwise, whereupon it should be stated what tracks it shares the quality with. --Chr.K. 09:29, 12 January 2006 (UTC)

NASCAR drivers having national flags

I wonder about redundancy. I can name only one non-American-born driver winning any NASCAR event ever held, and that would be Mario Andretti in the 1967 Daytona 500. To name NASCAR drivers who've won the Brickyard 400 as American seems to be self-referencing the nature of the NASCAR entertainment product. --4.225.20.38 14:41, 7 March 2006 (UTC)

In favor of removal of flags on NASCAR names, until more than 1% of their winners come from any country other than America. --Chr.K. 12:00, 18 May 2006 (UTC)
Definitely remove. Earl Ross' article claimed that he is the only non-American NASCAR driver to win a NASCAR race (I think Andretti became a U.S. citizen). Royalbroil 13:06, 18 May 2006 (UTC)
I say keep them. NASCAR wants to go international, and they'll drag as many rednecks kicking and screaming along as possible. I believe Ron Fellows (Canadian) has won in the NASCAR Busch Series.Mustang6172 08:33, 30 August 2006 (UTC)
I wonder how NASCAR will handle a people claiming they're boring and composed of rustbelt technology, compared to the F-1 cars, as a friend of mine recently stated. I say get rid of them (already did mention, granted) until we have a foreign winner. --Chr.K. 14:18, 5 September 2006 (UTC)
As a fan of all forms of racing, and a mechanic, the common response is: "Most fans don't understand the technology of any vehicle (racing or otherwise) and don't care to know." Mustang6172 06:19, 12 September 2006 (UTC)
Most fans must therefore mean Americans, as opposed to www.formula1.com, which has "Technical Analysis" as a section in their preview of every race they run. --Chr.K. 11:04, 7 October 2006 (UTC)
Actually, I check that site a lot. There's never anything interesting though. It's mostly common sense information about wings and tires.Mustang6172 08:16, 3 March 2007 (UTC)
I'm in favor of removing all American flags from all NASCAR statistics not concerning the Mexican or Canadian series. State flags should replace these. Quintinohthree (talk) 09:54, 30 May 2010 (UTC)

Track records

Track records have been listed in table form, rather than the clumsy list form. "Normally aspirated" records are actually not comparable and thus not offically kept by the Speedway. From 1997-2006, the IRL has used 3 seperate normally aspirated formulas (4.0L, 3.5L, 3.0L) and that does not include previous years where turbocharging was not used, therefore they're only relative, they can't be compared, and should not be listed. In addition, the list of winners shouldn't be on this main track page, it should be referenced to the race page where it's hosted. If anything, a page of "List of winners at Indianapolis Motor Speedway" could be started, but that would still be redundant information. Just some friendly work really... Doctorindy 03:48, 8 July 2006 (UTC)

Some of us were not in favor of making a "normally-aspirated" vs. "turbocharged" listing, instead of simply what the records are all-time, period. --Chr.K. 14:20, 5 September 2006 (UTC)

F1 Track record

On 6/19/04, Rubens Barrichello ran a 1:09.454 in the pre-qualifying round, which stands as the fastest lap ever run on the road course. Since that was the pre-qualifying session, I don't think they consider it the official qualifying record. Regardless, it should at least be kept in mind for future reference. Doctorindy 12:29, 10 July 2006 (UTC)

If Indy has it on record as unofficial time (which they'd have to, I'd think, for you to be able to reference it?), it should be mentioned as the unofficial Formula One track record. --Chr.K. 23:37, 6 May 2007 (UTC)

Do the math

Can somebody fix this?

"Of the 33 drivers of the 1953 race, nearly half, 16, died from racing accidents."

Were they all killed in the '53 event, or in the course of their careers? (I'd guess the latter, given the fatality rate in F1 in the '60s.) Trekphiler 08:19, 6 November 2006 (UTC)

The 500 was F-1 solely in name, and the fatality rate in the latter in the 60s was actually less than that of American open-wheel in the 1950s, where casualties were actually more numerous than those of the ancient Roman gladiators. --Chr.K. 00:37, 13 December 2006 (UTC)
The 500 was not F1 solely in name. For a period of a few years in the 1950's, the Indianapolis 500 paid championship points toward the F1 World Championship. However, very few of the full-time drivers from the F1 circuit competed in the 500. The thinking behind this was that the F1 World Championship was supposed to be a "Worldwide" representation of the best drivers on the globe, and the prestige of the 500-Mile Race was so high that the FIA decided it should be included as part of series. Since F1 drivers competing full-time for the championship rarely qualified, and therefore rarely won, the 500-Mile Race, the points were often insignificant in terms of the championship standings. Most of the time the winner of the 500 in that given year didn't even know he was awarded the championship points in F1.Kp.murphy (talk) 20:57, 26 May 2010 (UTC)

highest-capacity sporting facility in human history?

I'm not sure about this - Wikipedia states an estimated 250,000 spectators for Circus Maximus too, so Indianapolis probably has to share this title. --137.208.185.169 21:24, 18 November 2006 (UTC)

In the year 1999, Tony George was asked to approximate the number of seats IMS had; he stated it to be "around 330,000." Be aware, in recent years a number of grandstand seats in certain less-auspicious locations have not been filled, with much of the crowd going instead to the large family-oriented picnic mounds on the backstretch; both pleasantness (if you can handle the sheer number of people) and the gigantic big-screen TVs, are responsible. Either way, the grandstand capacity is sizably larger than 250,000. I'll find the link for such, momentarily. --Chr.K. 07:13, 5 January 2007 (UTC)
The line does sound totally over-the-top, and is essentially unprovable. "Highest capacity sporting facility in the world" would more than suffice. John the mackem 23:31, 15 January 2007 (UTC)
Coupled with the infield crowd, it easily surpasses Circus Maximus. --Chr.K. 23:34, 6 May 2007 (UTC)

You can't really call auto racing a sport.80.148.20.199 22:06, 6 July 2007 (UTC)

Actually, we can quote Hemingway and call it, along with mountain climbing and bull fighting, one of the world's only three sports, the others just being "children's games played by otherwise mature adults." --Chr.K. 09:06, 27 July 2007 (UTC)
Amen, Chr.K. It is a sport, and these drivers are athletes. But even if we were to take a more literal definition of "sport," it's still fits the description of a "motorsport." I'm tired of this brand of naive thinking with regard to racing, especially when someone posts such a ridiculous comment without signing their identity.Kp.murphy (talk) 21:01, 26 May 2010 (UTC)

Banking

Shouldn't the infobox read 12° in the turns and 9° in the straights?Mustang6172 08:21, 3 March 2007 (UTC)

No. The straightaways have no banking, save for a slight-inch incline going up and down them, linearly. The turns are the only banked sections, and they are not banked twelve degrees instead of nine, but rather 9°, 12 minutes, with 60 minutes in a full degree of gradiance. That, way more precise than Wikipedia usually shows? Yes, it is.--Chr.K. 23:33, 6 May 2007 (UTC)
Have fixed the banking question with a better template box. Banking of the straights, both long and short, and the turns are compared to each other, and average between the two, with 60% of the track as straights and 40% as turns, is likewise shown. --Chr.K. 00:14, 7 June 2007 (UTC)

Exact date for Trulli's lap?

I want to put in the practice lap by Trulli above the Qualifying and Race records for the USGP, so...when did Trulli run the fastest IMS road course lap ever? --Chr.K. 02:43, 4 June 2007 (UTC)

Actually The Third Oldest?

I was about to change the article, but I figured I should ask first. I believe the IMS should be listed as the third oldest racetrack in the world. Obviously the Milwaukee Mile is the oldest, but Brooklands in the United Kingdom is older than IMS. What do you think? Dale-DCX 20:58, 4 July 2007 (UTC)

The article clearly states that the Indianapolis Motor Speedway is the second oldest surviving track in the world. Brooklands is no longer in use, so it is not included. The359 21:21, 4 July 2007 (UTC)

Massive article expansion soon to begin

Just to inform everyone, this article is going to start getting exhaustively overhauled in the near future, with eventual goal of making it one of the most prominent featured articles on the entire site. --Chr.K. 22:02, 6 August 2007 (UTC)

And just for note before it happens, eventually there'll need to be a "History of the Indianapolis Motor Speedway" page. --Chr.K. 00:52, 7 August 2007 (UTC)

Original architect

It was not the four founders specifically, but a civil engineer from New York named P.T. Andrews, who explained to Fisher and company that their original goal of a three-mile track was feasible, but would require moving the course so close to the edges of the property they had purchased that there'd be no room for grandstands. He then proceeded, using a cardboard-drawn map of a one-mile circle, and cutting it into four pieces and spreading those pieces to four separate quadrants in the overall shape of a rectangle, to demonstrate how a 2.5 mile course was superior for their intentions. P.T. Andrews, therefore, is the architect of the Indianapolis Motor Speedway. Any objections to changing that on the infobox? --Chr.K. 22:08, 14 August 2007 (UTC)

Red flag

I broke the links to Wheeler & Allison; they were linking to politicians with nothing to do with the Speedway. Hopefully, somebody will do bios of them & fill the red links. Trekphiler (talk) 07:29, 12 March 2008 (UTC)

Yellow flag

The article currently says the first race was a 5-miler won by Louis Switzer. Floyd Clymer (Treasury of Early American Automobiles, 1877-1925, New York: Bonanza Books, 1950, p.108) says a 250-miler, part of a 3-day spectacle, won by Robert "Wild Bob" Burman in a Buick, with a time of 4:38:57, lead to bricklaying, after which an 18 Dec 1909 meet saw one Strang cover 5mi in 3:17 in a 120hp FIAT; the first 500 was won by Harroun (winning US$10,000), Mulford's Lozier second, David Bruce-Brown 3d. Can somebody settle the differences, with sources? (Clymer I don't consider really reliable...) Trekphiler (talk) 07:41, 12 March 2008 (UTC)

Louis Schwitzer won the first automobile race, as opposed to motorcycle race, in the track's history, on August 19, 1909, as reported by the IMS website, Donald Davidson's Autocourse Official History of the Indianapolis 500, and numerous other sources. I dont know where the Bob Burman reference comes from; A.G. Chapple was the first winner of a motorcycle event, on August 14, 1909, and Dr. Goethe Link and Russ Irvin won the first event ever, a balloon race, in their balloon Indianapolis, on June 5, 1909. --Chr.K. (talk) 19:37, 2 July 2008 (UTC)

External links

Added link to BBC's circuit guide.--Cheetaih (talk) 03:24, 12 May 2008 (UTC)

Centennial?

I noticed that the 2009-2011 logo was added and the description should raise a few eyebrows. This logo is being used to commemorate the track's centennial from 2009 (the track's opening) through 2011 (the 100th anniversary of the Indianapolis 500), drawing on elements from 1909, 1933 and 1961. If the track opened in 1909, then the first anniversary would be 1910. So the 100th anniversary would be 2010 (see year zero). How do we clear this up?Mustang6172 (talk) 05:46, 31 May 2008 (UTC)

There's nothing to clear up: If 1910 is the 1st anniversary, then 2010 (100 years later) is the 101st anniversary --> 2009 is the 100th anniversary. DH85868993 (talk) 06:11, 31 May 2008 (UTC)
Is the 100th anniversary of the Indianapolis 500 marked by years since, or by the number of races? 2016 is the 100th 500-Mile Race. --Chr.K. (talk) 22:15, 2 July 2008 (UTC)

GA Review

GA toolbox
Reviewing
This review is transcluded from Talk:Indianapolis Motor Speedway/GA1. The edit link for this section can be used to add comments to the review.

Hi, I'm a big fan of Formula One and I follow the Indy Car Series casually, so I know a little about the IMS, but not too much! This is also my first GA review, so please feel free to take issue with anything I write. I shall update this page once I have completed my review.--Midgrid(talk) 19:38, 2 January 2011 (UTC)

Comments

General
  • The whole "history" section becomes a bit disjointed when it approaches the modern era. The headings jump from the 1960s to the 2000s, and the final three headings (NASCAR/IROC, F1, Moto GP) seem tacked on. I would recommend putting the history of the Indy 500/US open-wheel racing under one further subheading, with the other categories under a different subheading (e.g. other major racing series).
  • I do not believe that the referencing is satisfactory: there is a heavy reliance on one source (reference [8]), which is not formatted correctly at the moment so I can't check it properly; statements like "It's a common misconception that the rules were "dumbed down" to what was called the "junkyard formula" to allow more entries during the depression" need more referencing to avoid violating WP:NPOV.
  • The writing style needs tightening up: it's generally good, but often lapses into slight informality. The article could do with a thorough copy-edit (I can recommend the WikiProject Guild of Copy Editors, which has helped me with my own GA nominations.--Midgrid(talk) 17:22, 3 January 2011 (UTC)
Lead
  • There was more than one circuit architect, so the infobox template field should be changed from "architect" to "architect(s)".
  • For the lap records in the infobox, is giving the 0 for the hour necessary, as all of the record times are under an hour?
  • I like how the lead is written, but I would like to see auto racing explicitly mentioned and linked to earlier on, e.g. "The Indianapolis Motor Speedway, located in Speedway, Indiana (an enclave suburb of Indianapolis) in the United States, is a permanent auto racing oval track, famous for hosting the Indianapolis 500-Mile Race and the Brickyard 400" for the benefit of the layman.
  • I would like to see citations for "The inaugural USGP race drew an estimated 225,000 spectators, setting a Formula One attendance record" and "Since August 19, 1909, 248 automobile races have taken place, with 137 separate drivers winning".--Midgrid(talk) 16:06, 3 January 2011 (UTC)
References
  • As a general point, the references need to be consistently formatted. Many of them have fields missing from the {{citation}} template.
  • Reference [1] needs to be filled out with the {{cite news}} template.
  • I can't connect to reference [2]; please check that this link is working.
  • Reference [6] needs to be filled out properly with the {{cite book}} template.
  • Reference [8] currently points to a general website; all of these citations need to be changed to specific subpages within this site.
  • Is reference [11] a reliable source?
  • Reference [14] made my browser crash, please check this one!
  • Reference [17] is dead.
  • Is reference [21] a reliable source?
  • Reference [22] is dead.
  • Is reference [26] a reliable source?--Midgrid(talk) 16:31, 3 January 2011 (UTC)

Overall

GA review (see here for criteria)
  1. It is reasonably well written.
    a (prose): b (MoS for lead, layout, word choice, fiction, and lists):
  2. It is factually accurate and verifiable.
    a (references): b (citations to reliable sources): c (OR):
  3. It is broad in its coverage.
    a (major aspects): b (focused):
  4. It follows the neutral point of view policy.
    Fair representation without bias:
  5. It is stable.
    No edit wars, etc.:
  6. It is illustrated by images, where possible and appropriate.
    a (images are tagged and non-free images have fair use rationales): b (appropriate use with suitable captions):
  7. Overall:
    Pass/Fail:

Unfortunately, after reading this article in more detail, I feel that it does not meet GA standards with regards to referencing and writing style, and that it requires a significant amount of editing to attain this status. I would recommend a thorough copy-edit and an overhaul of the referencing, and perhaps a peer review, before nominating it again. Sorry to be harsh - I think that this could easily become a GA with a bit of work.--Midgrid(talk) 17:48, 3 January 2011 (UTC)

AAA?

Does that stand for American Automobile Association? Needs to say so.Isaac Rabinovitch (talk) 19:07, 29 May 2011 (UTC)

Indy Star citations...

There's a couple of dozen cites that all redirect to a page that shows no information whatsoever about the subject. They need to go. Unless someone can be bothered to find better sources soon, a massive part of this article will be deleted soon, and rightly, by me. The mayor of Yurp (talk) 03:38, 29 October 2011 (UTC)

You need to click the relevant decade link in the big photo in the middle of the page. For example, to see the quote from Fisher that "Indianapolis is going to be the world's greatest center of horseless carriage manufacturer, what could be more logical than building the world's greatest racetrack right here?", you need to click the "1909-1918" link. Unfortunately, the "decade" pages don't have separate URLs. DH85868993 (talk) 10:16, 29 October 2011 (UTC)

Brickyard

Was it called "The Brickyard" before or after the conversion to pavement?--Rbeas 04:00, 29 July 2005 (UTC)

Chr.K. 17:27, 26 Nov 2005

  • After. The Indianapolis Motor Speedway was termed 'The Brickyard' after its owners, specifically Carl Fisher, had placed the 3.2 million paving bricks to replace the crushed stone and tar surface that was prevelent on civilian motor transit roads at the time, but had proven unable to withstand high-speed competition.
  • You're half right... the nickname did come along after the conversion. The reason for it was that one yard of brick pavement was kept at the start/finish line, which still exists there today. That "yard" of bricks led to the nickname "Brickyard."Kp.murphy (talk) 20:48, 26 May 2010 (UTC)
  • This is incorrect. It's been known as the Brickyard since they laid down the bricks. "Dec. 10, 1909: The brick-paving job is completed, 63 days after work began. Even before the work is done, locals have nicknamed the track “The Brickyard.”" Source: http://www.indianapolismotorspeedway.com/history/35207-1906-1911-Milestones/ Malcolm33 (talk) 01:42, 27 March 2013 (UTC)

About the Formula One layout diagram + Anti-clockwise??

It would be nice if the layout diagram for the automobile Formula One course was shown in relation to the overall IMS, like what was done for the motorcycle F1 section further down the page.

Also, why is the term "anti-clockwise" used? Is this British? I don't want to start a editing war but I don't see why "counterclockwise" isn't consistently used.209.179.57.76 (talk) 19:25, 1 July 2014 (UTC)

File:Indianapolis Motor Speedway - Otis Lithograph Co. border edit.jpg to appear as POTD

Hello! This is a note to let the editors of this article know that File:Indianapolis Motor Speedway - Otis Lithograph Co. border edit.jpg will be appearing as picture of the day on March 31, 2015. You can view and edit the POTD blurb at Template:POTD/2015-03-31. If this article needs any attention or maintenance, it would be preferable if that could be done before its appearance on the Main Page. Thanks! — Crisco 1492 (talk) 01:32, 11 March 2015 (UTC)

Indianapolis Motor Speedway poster
A 1909 poster for the Indianapolis Motor Speedway, a raceway in Speedway, Indiana, which first opened on August 12 of that year. Constructed in a period of five months for $3 million, the track is relatively flat, two-and-a-half miles (four kilometers) long, and oval in shape. The speedway has changed little since it first opened, although a modern infield road course was completed in 2000. The Indianapolis Motor Speedway, which hosts such races as the Indianapolis 500 and Brickyard 400, was designated a National Historic Landmark in 1987.Poster: Otis Lithograph Co; restoration: Adam Cuerden and Chris Woodrich
Archive – More featured pictures...

Seating Capacity

What is the accepted seating capacity? Multiple pages report different numbers.

257,325 -https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Indianapolis_Motor_Speedway

250,000 -https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_motor_racing_venues_by_capacity

250,000 -https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Seating_capacity (intro paragraph)

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Opening Date

August 12, 1909 had been listed as the Opening Date of the Indianapolis Motor Speedway. That was ostensibly based on the information provided in the book Indy: Racing Before the 500 The Untold Story of the Brickyard by D. Bruce Scott; which states that the first motorcycle demonstration test occurred on 8/12/1909. But the first official event was not scheduled until 8/13-8/14. The 13th was rained out, and that pushed the motorcycle races to start on the 14th. According to Speedway president Doug Boles, the Speedway recognizes 8/14/1909 as the opening date of the track per this tweet. https://twitter.com/jdouglas4/status/1425813211920601088 Doctorindy↔Talk 15:08, 12 August 2021 (UTC)

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