Talk:Gertie the Dinosaur

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Apple/pumpkin

The intertitled version of Gertie has the dinosaur catch a pumpkin. This is also what Leonard Maltin claims the Vaudeville version was like in his book Of Mice and Magic. The wiki article lists the fruit as an apple. Now, the fruit itself (onscreen version) is not very detailed and could be anything, so there would be nothing stopping McCay from throwing Gertie whatever he had handy at the individual acts. But since this is the first time I've heard anything other than the fruit being a pumpkin, I'm wondering if somebody got the facts wrong. Anybody got some light to shed?Pjalne 19:13, 29 September 2006 (UTC)

Canemaker is the source for most of the details in the article, beyond the synopsis. Page 176 says:

Sizewise, an orange pumpkin would have been the proper choice ...; but McCay chose a smaller object easily hidden within his coat. Since red "reads" clearly to a theater audience, the prop became an apple. McCay's granddaughter Janet remembered visiting McCay backstage and seeing the red cardboard "apple" in his dressing room.

You're right in that the difference between the vaudeville and later film version probably should be mentioned. I'll add that. --Davepape 01:38, 1 October 2006 (UTC)

Nice work, dude. Davepape 1 - Leonard Maltin 0. Pjalne 14:15, 1 October 2006 (UTC)

cartoons that were or were not first

"Gertie" is credited as the first ever film cartoon. Trekphiler 21:06, 8 December 2005 (UTC)

That is widely believed but untrue. McCay had made several cartoons before this one, including one starring the characters from Little Nemo in Slumberland.Uucp 18:48, 12 April 2006 (UTC)

Since this film is in the public domain, is it available for download anywhere? Thanks -- 136.159.71.113 19:53, 17 January 2006 (UTC)

Here [1]

That may be good to add to the article if it is not already. ++Lar: t/c 17:09, 29 June 2006 (UTC)

Minor note to be aware of: The Gertie animation is now in the public domain, but the associated original musical score is not. The composer lead a surprisingly long life. 77.96.228.232 (talk) 22:08, 13 December 2011 (UTC)

Walt Disney

I have read (but do not recall where) that Winsor McKay's son met Walt Disney several years after his father died. The son was awed to meet Walt. However, Walt told him that "everything I have done I owe to your father". And this is one of the reasons that Gertie is in the Disney Hollywood Studios in Florida.

Also, I have seen some original Gertie drawing in the (now closed) Museum of Animation Art in Washington, DC.

Cheshire Figment (talk) 02:11, 11 February 2009 (UTC)

GA Review

This review is transcluded from Talk:Gertie the Dinosaur/GA1. The edit link for this section can be used to add comments to the review.

Reviewer: Khazar2 (talk · contribs) 14:52, 28 April 2013 (UTC)

Hey Curly, I'll be glad to take this one. Comments in the next 1-3 days. -- Khazar2 (talk) 14:52, 28 April 2013 (UTC)

Initial comments

Since this article is excellent on first pass, you get mostly stream-of-consciousness thoughts instead:

• Fascinating to think that there was a time that the American public had to be told what a dinosaur was
  • I actually have my doubts that the public still had to be "educated" about dinosaurs by this time, but that's what the source says. Curly Turkey (gobble) 21:34, 28 April 2013 (UTC)
• I know I'm the 10 millionth person in American history to say this, but man, William Randolph Hearst: what a jerk.
  • It's funny—in the George Herriman article I did, Hearst comes out as the hero. Curly Turkey (gobble) 21:34, 28 April 2013 (UTC)

An actual action point:

• "each a little differnt" -- check spelling on different--in original quote?
  • Fixed. Forgot to run a spellcheck. Just did, and found a few more. Curly Turkey (gobble) 21:34, 28 April 2013 (UTC)

Overall this seems comprehensive and terrifically written; you do a particularly good job of explaining the importance of the film's legacy to American animation. This seems ready for FAC, much less GA.

• Well, thanks for saying so! It is my goal—the film's 100th anniversay is next year. Curly Turkey (gobble) 21:34, 28 April 2013 (UTC)

Great--once that image (below) is tagged for US this is good to go. It'd be great to have this on the front page for the anniversary! -- Khazar2 (talk) 21:35, 28 April 2013 (UTC)

Done image tagging. I also cleaned up the formatting a bit. Curly Turkey (gobble) 21:56, 28 April 2013 (UTC)

Checklist

Rate	Attribute	Review Comment
1. Well-written:
	1a. the prose is clear, concise, and understandable to an appropriately broad audience; spelling and grammar are correct.	Minor spelling check above. Spotchecks show no evidence of copyright issues.
	1b. it complies with the Manual of Style guidelines for lead sections, layout, words to watch, fiction, and list incorporation.
2. Verifiable with no original research:
	2a. it contains a list of all references (sources of information), presented in accordance with the layout style guideline.
	2b. reliable sources are cited inline. All content that could reasonably be challenged, except for plot summaries and that which summarizes cited content elsewhere in the article, must be cited no later than the end of the paragraph (or line if the content is not in prose).
	2c. it contains no original research.
3. Broad in its coverage:
	3a. it addresses the main aspects of the topic.
	3b. it stays focused on the topic without going into unnecessary detail (see summary style).
	4. Neutral: it represents viewpoints fairly and without editorial bias, giving due weight to each.
	5. Stable: it does not change significantly from day to day because of an ongoing edit war or content dispute.
6. Illustrated, if possible, by media such as images, video, or audio:
	6a. media are tagged with their copyright statuses, and valid non-free use rationales are provided for non-free content.	File:Gertie.jpg needs a US PD tag. All others appear fine.
	6b. media are relevant to the topic, and have suitable captions.
	7. Overall assessment.

Images

Hi Curly, you may be interested in the following PD works:

• Gertie on Tour (excerpts) (download link)
• Gertie the dinosaur standing on a cliff edge looking at a mastodon (your best chance at a featured pic)

Hope this helps! — Crisco 1492 (talk) 23:19, 2 May 2013 (UTC)

Wow, that's an awesome pic! I'm sitting here staring at the linework—which doesn't come out well at all in any of the other pics I've found on the Net. It's too bad the registration marks don't really show up. I'll figure out a good place to put this in the article. Curly Turkey (gobble) 05:32, 3 May 2013 (UTC)

• The LOC has some fairly good pictures, although I'm not sure how much of it is related to animation. Many of the PD ones are available in high resolution. You might find other interesting things if you were to search the site. — Crisco 1492 (talk) 06:11, 3 May 2013 (UTC)

• Yeah, I've found a few images there before. It's been hit-or-miss (mostly miss) for the articles I tend to work on, but when I found something it's always really high quality. Curly Turkey (gobble) 09:32, 3 May 2013 (UTC)

Isn't that video already in the article? It could be nice to have the original Gertie film in higher res, knowing it is PD, instead of the tiny video we have now... FunkMonk (talk) 23:34, 2 May 2013 (UTC)

• Good catch. The original Gertie film is at Archive.org. They have a fairly high resolution. — Crisco 1492 (talk) 23:37, 2 May 2013 (UTC)

I think that's the source of our versions actually... The borders were removed a while back on my request. There must be better ones, is there some kind of DVD collection of old animated films? FunkMonk (talk) 23:44, 2 May 2013 (UTC)

• Likely, but I don't have any. — Crisco 1492 (talk) 03:02, 3 May 2013 (UTC)

• There is a DVD, called Winsor McCay—The Master Edition, a supposedly complete collection of his animation. I don't have it myself. Given thay it's all Public Domain material, I'm surprised it's not all over the internet. (Well, not all PD. It's supposed to have Canemaker's McCay documentary from the 1970s on it, too). Curly Turkey (gobble) 03:25, 3 May 2013 (UTC)
• I won't be buying the DVD myself. It appears they've made it Region 1 only, and I live in Japan. I'll never understand why companies do that. I could easily bypass the region coding, but out of principal I can't bring myself to give these companies my money when they do that to their customers. Curly Turkey (gobble) 03:40, 3 May 2013 (UTC)

Hmm, since it is PD material, downloading that collection wouldn't be illegal, hmmm? FunkMonk (talk) 11:40, 3 May 2013 (UTC)

• If it has the documentary on it, downloading the DVD would still be illegal. — Crisco 1492 (talk) 20:23, 3 May 2013 (UTC)

These days, specific parts of a DVD can be downloaded, but in any case, haven't found anything proper so far... FunkMonk (talk) 05:42, 6 May 2013 (UTC)

Live close to a good library? Might be worth checking out. Curly Turkey (gobble) 06:01, 6 May 2013 (UTC)

Someone uploaded a much higher-quality version of Gertie to YouTube. I downloaded it using youtube-dl, and after stripping the audio track, the file came to 91.9MB. After converting it to .ogv, the filesize was 429.8MB, way too large to upload to Commons. I'm not confident enough in my understanding of video to fiddle with it. Does anyone else want to give it a try? Curly Turkey (gobble) 04:00, 21 June 2013 (UTC)

Oh, yeah, the same uploader appears to have uploaded higher-quality versions of (all of?) McCay's other films as well. It would be nice to get those, too. Curly Turkey (gobble) 04:03, 21 June 2013 (UTC)

The file should not grow that much if it was 91 mb initially. I'll give it a shot. FunkMonk (talk) 04:09, 21 June 2013 (UTC)

140 mb with this[2] tool, but still too much... FunkMonk (talk) 16:44, 21 June 2013 (UTC)

• FunkMonk, 140mb is fine. Use Chunked uploads on Commons. — Crisco 1492 (talk) 17:04, 21 June 2013 (UTC)

You'll need to turn it on at Preferences --> Upload Wizard, on Commons. — Crisco 1492 (talk) 17:10, 21 June 2013 (UTC)

I used the tool FunkMonk linked to above and uploaded the file myself. Much, much higher quality, though I imagine a DVD rip would be better if someone could get their hands on a copy. Curly Turkey (gobble) 03:12, 13 July 2013 (UTC)

• That's beautiful. A DVD rip could be bigger, but it might push 500 mbs. — Crisco 1492 (talk) 03:17, 13 July 2013 (UTC)

I got my hands on the Master Collection DVD. I've ripped and converted all the videos, and have been uploading them to Commons. The two on this page are done, and I've switched up the files. Curly Turkey (gobble) 06:08, 31 July 2013 (UTC)

"Gertie the Dinosaur" is not (apparently) the proper title of this film

The following is a closed discussion of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on the talk page. Editors desiring to contest the closing decision should consider a move review after discussing it on the closer's talk page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

The result of the move request was: Not moved. (non-admin closure) Vpab15 (talk) 22:38, 12 February 2021 (UTC)

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Gertie the Dinosaur → Gertie (film) – After some research that I've done for the Wikisource entry of this film, I have determined that the contemporary title of this film was actually Gertie, not Gertie the Dinosaur. Winsor McCay never apparently used the name Gertie the Dinosaur to refer to this film, and in the video we ourselves have the title given is "GERTIE". A search of Google Books for the keywords "Gertie the Dinosaur" before 1921 comes up with nothing. On top of that, the Motion Pictures, 1912-1939 copyright catalog lists, on page 296, a 1914 film called Gertie made by Winsor McCay, which for some reason is listed as an unpublished work, while the next 4 Gertie films listed are listed as published ones. So why has the title of this article been Gertie the Dinosaur for so long, even after the article has been reviewed to the level of it gaining the Featured article status? Is this some kind of mistake of history, for the name of this film to have been misattributed by so many sources including us?

(If anyone can find substantial evidence that contemporary sources did more often refer to this film as Gertie the Dinosaur, though, I'm willing to be disproven.) PseudoSkull (talk) 18:17, 29 January 2021 (UTC)

• Oppose. I would prefer to defer to the natural disambiguation, WP:COMMONNAME used by a majority of independent reliable sources now in 2021, not the official name/common name of the film that was used prior to 1921. This is consistent with WP:NAMECHANGES, where we basically give extra weight to sources written now versus contemporary sources written back then. It is not Wikipedia's job to be the first ones to "correct the history" from the versions currently told by most of today's reliable sources (see also the essay Wikipedia:Verifiability, not truth), especially one that has Featured article status. That seems to be the OP's basic argument here. As long as today's sources such as the National Film Registry[3] use the natural disambiguation title, we should as well. Zzyzx11 (talk) 14:23, 30 January 2021 (UTC)

I will leave you with this comment: It is incredibly disingenuous to be calling a film a name that was never officially used to begin with. And it's also bad that on top of that, nowhere in this Wikipedia article is it even mentioned that Gertie the Dinosaur was not the original release title, nor does it mention that it is an unofficial title that was adopted by the public some number of years later and not even (apparently) at the time. Most of the sources give in the article are from the 90s, made by animation historians at that time, who for whatever reason seem to have consistently assumed this as the film's title.

To be fair, I did dig up a newspaper from 1921 that referred to the film as Gertie, the Dinosaur (with the comma) but I do not believe this newspaper is what caused the popular name to change—just some coincidental bit of misinformation given to that newspaper editor probably. Even in that case, that was still a good 7 years after the film was originally released.

I generally tend to stay away from editing Wikipedia because of its incredibly poor policies regarding notability (which has nothing to do with my point), so I admit that I am not so aware of your specific policies. To be frank, I don't really care about someone throwing specific bits of policy in my face in place of actual philosophical/scientific arguments as tends to be the norm in this dark alley of the WMF sisters. I'm not interested in changing policy or how things work here either. Really I don't even care if this move request is successful, but I've made my points, and whether or not they hold up in the face of Wikipedians is in their hands. In the name of accurately presenting history to millions of readers, I can only try. PseudoSkull (talk) 01:07, 31 January 2021 (UTC)

I'm sorry you feel that way. Yes, it's primarily a philosophical vs. policy question. But I should clarify that what is posted in an article's lead introduction section and body is an entirely separate matter than the article's title. We could mention several alternative, official, or original names in the first few sentences. That is why the first sentence of the Lady Gaga article mentions her given name Stefani Germanotta first before her stage name. Zzyzx11 (talk) 12:16, 31 January 2021 (UTC)

• Oppose - Modern sources consistently call this film "Gertie the Dinosaur", therefore making that the WP:COMMONNAME. HumanBodyPiloter5 (talk) 18:59, 10 February 2021 (UTC)

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The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.