Talk:Brandon Teena/Archive 2

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Am I missing something?

Noticing the recent flurry of activity on the article, I still don't see any scholarly citations supporting the use of pronouns reflected in this article. I recognize that some editors who are watching this page have very strong opinions about the appropriate gender of pronouns to implement here but opinions alone, no matter how strongly asserted, are nothing more than original research, which according to WP policy is not acceptable for article content. Moreover, WP policy regarding self-identification seems strictly limited to the user space. Am I missing seeing the citations which support this usage? I need help here: Since I am unaware of any shred of evidence that there is scholarly, peer-reviewed support for this usage, please accept this as a respectful request for acceptable citations (even from DSM) which would support the use of applying male pronouns to the murder victim described in this article. Thank you. Gwen Gale 06:42, 5 January 2007 (UTC)

{{POV-check}}

It seems there are differing opinions of the proper pronoun for Brandon Teena. Though these are opinions (and therefore objective), many of the people on the talk page continually consider themselves to be absolutely accurate. According to the "ethical" definition, Brandon Teena should be called a man and therefore referred to as a "he" but according to the "scientific" definition of a man Teena should be referred to as a she, especially considering Brandon Teena does not match any of the qualifications (which would make the gender ambiguous) specified by Dysprosia (and therefore has no medical defintion as a man). I'm not supportive of either side of the debate; I merely care about the encyclopedic nature of Wikipedia that is clearly not being met here. Wikipedia is not here to discuss "feelings" and while it may be socially and morally unacceptable to address a transgendered person as anything other than what they wish to be adressed as, it is still necessary to remain entirely objective, and feelings are certainly difficult to objectively discuss.(71.234.63.192 22:27, 5 January 2007 (UTC))

Opinions are subjective, not objective. Thankfully, we have the WP Manual of Style which is very clear:
"Where known, use terminology that subjects use for themselves (self-identification). This can mean using the term an individual uses for himself or herself, or using the term a group most widely uses for itself. This includes referring to transgender individuals according to the names and pronouns they use to identify themselves." [1] (emphasis mine)
This is an old and haggard topic. Gwen, you're not getting anywhere with your talk of original research. Identifying transgender individuals by their chosen pronoun is policy, as the WP Manual of Style makes abundantly clear. -- User:RyanFreisling @ 22:36, 5 January 2007 (UTC)
If it's WP policy then, it appears to be otherwise wholly unsupported and in conclict with other WP policy against OR, since I'm unaware of any scholarly or peer-reviewed citations which could support the use of personal pronouns asserted in this article.
Meanwhile, could you please provide a scholarly source which confirms the murder victim self-identified with male personal pronouns? Gwen Gale 06:10, 6 January 2007 (UTC)
If someday that becomes the requirement, I'll consider devoting a moment to your request. In the meantime, WP policy is clear and OR is clearly not the issue. Feel free to bring your opinion that the two policies conflict to the appropriate policy pages - because the article on a murdered transsexual isn't the forum. Good luck in your efforts to resolve what you see as a policy conflict on the appropriate policy pages (I'd start with the Style and OR pages), but be aware that your views may be likely to be seen by others as a smokescreen for transphobia and you should make a concerted effort to address those potential concerns if your goal is to improve, and not to disrupt, Wikipedia. Good day to you. -- User:RyanFreisling @ 06:18, 6 January 2007 (UTC)
That's not what I asked. Please provide a scholarly source which confirms the murder victim self-identified with male personal pronouns. Thank you. Gwen Gale 06:25, 6 January 2007 (UTC)
Not required. She changed her name when she began identifying as male. From the BBC, for example: "But Brandon's mother JoAnn is campaigning for justice for her child, who was born Teena Brandon but flipped her names when she started living as a boy." Good night. -- User:RyanFreisling @ 06:27, 6 January 2007 (UTC)
With all due respect, I believe you're mistaken. This extraordinary use of male personal pronouns requires documented support. Please provide a scholarly source which confirms the murder victim self-identified with male personal pronouns.
Your kind warning that I might be opening myself up to accusations of transphopia is appreciated as well-meant but ultimately, I think it's unhelpful. Moreover, it's serious a violation of WP policy to speculate on my motives. Hence, I respectfully ask you to refrain from making such references and comments in your edits here, thanks. Meanwhile, I'm aware you seem to be extremely sensitive about this topic. No worries, I wholly respect your PoV. I mean, all the way. My only care is the encyclopedic content and tone of the article. Gwen Gale 06:36, 6 January 2007 (UTC)
' This extraordinary use of male personal pronouns requires documented support.'? That support has been provided to you on multiple occasions. I did not speculate on your motives (you just commented on my 'sensitivity', which is rather uncivil. Your argument is sputtering, and even within one post is self-contradictory. Again, go fight your policy battle in the right forum and don't use the page of a murdered transsexual to explore your concerns about contradictory policy with contradictory arguments. -- User:RyanFreisling @ 06:39, 6 January 2007 (UTC)
The support provided in the past was from highly specialized advocacy sites. I'm not fighting WP policy at all. Please stick to the topic. I'm asking for a scholarly citation supporting the article's implicit assertion that Brandon Teena self-identified with male personal pronouns. Gwen Gale 06:49, 6 January 2007 (UTC)
Even if what Ryan said was wrong, this is a biographical article, and a "scholarly citation" is not required to prove an issues of fact - something such as a newspaper article will do just fine. Brandon Teena was very widely referred to as "he" in the press at that time, because, like Wikipedia, the vast majority of the reputable press has similar points in their manuals of style. Thus we do similarly. Rebecca 06:55, 6 January 2007 (UTC)
Did I say something wrong? Let me know and I'll be sure to learn from my error. -- User:RyanFreisling @ 07:11, 6 January 2007 (UTC)
All I've seen here have been references on advocacy sites. Could you please point me to some newspaper or wire articles which support your statement Brandon Teena was very widely referred to as "he" in the press at that time. I would also appreciate seeing a few citations supporting your assertion that like Wikipedia, the vast majority of the reputable press has similar points in their manuals of style. Thanks. Gwen Gale 07:01, 6 January 2007 (UTC)
'Self-identification' is the standard on Wikipedia, not 'scholarly and specific proof an individual used certain specific pronouns'. Personally I find it incredible that you can accept that Brandon Teena used a male name and identified as male and DIDN'T use male pronouns. I think you'd need to prove your POV, not demand speciifc scholarly proof about the specific question of pronoun usage. -- 07:11, 6 January 2007 (UTC)

Please stop trying to deflect this discussion away from the requested citaions which so far, don't seem to be forthcoming. Only for clarity, I'll repeat my request. I would like citations (for the first they don't even have to be scholarly, multiple mainstream press and wire publications will do) supporting the following two assertions:

  • Brandon Teena was very widely referred to as "he" in the press at that time
  • like Wikipedia, the vast majority of the reputable press has similar points in their manuals of style

Thanks again... and cheers! Gwen Gale 07:32, 6 January 2007 (UTC)

Not gonna happen, least not from me. Citations for those assertions (what the press does) are not required to validate the current policy of using a transgendered person's self-identification as the deciding factor regarding pronouns. -- User:RyanFreisling @ 07:36, 6 January 2007 (UTC)
Following that, I take it you reject Rebecca's use of the press as a posible means of support for the use of these pronouns? Likewise her assertion that the manuals of style used by these organizations would support this use? I mean, I want to confirm my take on your input, that the only support you're asserting here is Wikipedia policy regarding self-identification? Thanks for your patience btw. Gwen Gale 07:42, 6 January 2007 (UTC)
Rebecca's opinions are her own. I stand by my own words and no-one else's. -- User:RyanFreisling @ 07:44, 6 January 2007 (UTC)
That's cool. Given that you're citing WP policy regarding self-identification, please provide a scholarly citation supporting the article's implicit assertion that Brandon Teena self-identified with male personal pronouns. Alternately (and reasonably put) I think a scholarly citation supporting an assertion that Brandon consistently identified as a "transgendered male" will do. I understand how potentially sensitive this discussion is. My only concern is encyclopedic and my support of WP policy is a given. Meanwhile I've only ever seen unsupported assertions along these lines on advocacy sites and personal webpages. Gwen Gale 07:57, 6 January 2007 (UTC)
Not required. He identified as male and you'll have to provide proof he didn't. -- User:RyanFreisling @ 07:58, 6 January 2007 (UTC)
You're making the assertion, not me. Gwen Gale 08:22, 6 January 2007 (UTC)
We should probably stop feeding the troll, anyway. A look at Gale's contributions reveals a lot of this sort of bizarre dispute-starting. Rebecca 08:01, 6 January 2007 (UTC)
Please provide some diffs to support that assertion, thanks. Gwen Gale 08:19, 6 January 2007 (UTC)
Agreed. Goodnight Gale. -- User:RyanFreisling @ 08:03, 6 January 2007 (UTC)

We have some troubling Wikipedia policy violations here:

  • Rebecca has engaged in a personal attack by calling me a troll. Not only is this a policy issue, it focuses the discussion away from my reasonable requests for acceptable citations.

So far, the use of male personal pronouns on the article appears to be unsupported, but retained in the article only by aggressive baiting and other threatening edits by two or more users. There may indeed be scholarly support for the use of male personal pronouns in this article, but it's not cited. Never mind you guys are calling me a troll and a transphobe or whatever, I utterly understand how you might misinterpret my questions and requests concerning such a sensitive and emotional topic. I support Wikipedia policy and accordingly would like to see some acceptable citations backing up these assertions. Gwen Gale 08:19, 6 January 2007 (UTC)

As I said, here's one from the BBC: "But Brandon's mother JoAnn is campaigning for justice for her child, who was born Teena Brandon but flipped her names when she started living as a boy." and "Brandon, 21, had lived as a boy for several years, strapping her breasts down, wearing men's clothes and padding her underwear with socks. She was also dating a woman, Lana Tisdale, who initially believed she was a boy but remained with her when she discovered the truth. Six days before she died Brandon was attacked and raped by Lotter and Nissen, who had recently found out she was actually a girl." [2] Brandon Teena was living as a man when he was murdered. QED. WP policy dictates we use male pronouns. Now stop it. -- User:RyanFreisling @ 08:23, 6 January 2007 (UTC)

User:RyanFreisling, thanks for that. It's a start. My first concern is that this news article doesn't refer to Brandon with male personal pronouns (it refers to Brandon as "she"). If anything, I think this supports changing the pronoun usage in the Wikipedia article (although I'm aware you choose to derive support strictly through your interpretation of the self-identification element of WP policy and I respect that).
As I said before, there may indeed be scholarly support for the assertion that Brandon self identified as a male transexual but while this BBC article uses the phrase "lived as a boy," while similar, that's not the same thing as "male transexual," nor is the BBC article a scholarly, peer reviewed journal. I know this seems to annoy you and I'm not happy about being a part of that. Meanwhile, I think the BBC article you've cited wholly supports changing the implementation of personal pronouns in the article. I would add that it at least supports the notion that such a change would not be considered vandalism and that the use of that term in revert headers is inappropriate. Gwen Gale 08:38, 6 January 2007 (UTC)
After having it explained to you a half-dozen times, I believe you now should know that press-identification is not the standard - self-identification is. The BBC citation (as well as many others) makes clear Brandon Teena's SELF-identification, and that's enough for WP. The pronouns THE PRESS employs are irrelevant. Your argument is specious, and yet you ignore the arguments of others. Honestly, Gwen, a reasonable person could at this point perceive your conduct as tendentious and your intention to be trolling. Please don't provide any more evidence to support that view. Last, have a great day.-- User:RyanFreisling @ 21:58, 6 January 2007 (UTC)
The Manual of Style that you cite states that it is a “nonbinding guideline”. According to a 2000 documentary on the subject, Teena’s mother, asked whether she was gay, transgender or what, the reply was, “I don’t know.” Following several arrests, she was booked and jailed as a female. After she was raped, she initially checked into the hospital as a man, but later asked that the admission form be corrected to indicate that she was a female. When she pressed rape charges against Nissen and Lotter, she identified herself as a woman to the sheriff’s office. It seems that around family and authority see claimed a female gender. Throughout the program, she was referred to in the feminine. This includes her mother, close friends, and biographer. This confuses the issue of her self-identity, but that does not really matter, as the Manual of Style is only a “nonbinding guideline”, not concrete Wikipedia policy.69.246.191.100 20:28, 30 May 2007 (UTC)
I have gone through this article and removed all personal pronouns relating to the subject, so now can we please get on with creating a good article rather than bickering about whether the subject is he or she!? 88.107.250.248 14:40, 30 June 2007 (UTC)

Rebecca's news cites

"...killed in a farmhouse, along with two witnesses, because he reported being raped by Lotter...", "Chicago woman to wed inmate portrayed in movie 'Boys Don't Cry'", AP, 19 March 2006

"...was raped before he was brutally murdered by his male friends..." "Prisoners of Gender", Hindustan Times, 12 November 2005

"When his secret was discovered, Teena was raped and murdered by former friends." "A poignant case of hidden gender", Daily Telegraph, 17 April 2004

"... raped and killed in Nebraska 10 years ago after two male acquaintances found out that although he lived as a man", "Three go on trial in transgender hate crime case", Houston Chronicle, 15 March 2004

"...raped and later murdered by two men after they discovered he wasn't born a man.", "Killing helped advance transgender rights", The Columbian, 1 January 2004

"...raped and later murdered by two men after they discovered he wasn't born a man." "Community remembers tragedy that inspired 'Boys Don't Cry' Killing spurred activism among transgendered", Charleston Gazette, 29 December 2003

"Prosecutors said he was killed in a farmhouse on New Year's Eve 1993", "Death row inmate loses appeal for DNA testing", AP, 27 September 2003

"...did not surgically transition to male but successfully passed for a long time preceding his death...", "Sex and Sensibility", The Washington Post, 10 November 2002

I think the onus is on you to find sources for your claims. Rebecca 09:18, 6 January 2007 (UTC)

I'm not making any claims. You are making the claims. I've looked into the citations you provided and so far, have found the following:
  • "...killed in a farmhouse, along with two witnesses, because he reported being raped by Lotter...", "Chicago woman to wed inmate portrayed in movie 'Boys Don't Cry'", AP, 19 March 2006
This Googles on three personal blogs but I can't find any confirmation it's a genuine AP quote. Gwen Gale 09:47, 6 January 2007 (UTC)
  • "...was raped before he was brutally murdered by his male friends..." "Prisoners of Gender", Hindustan Times, 12 November 2005
This seems to appear on a single Indian website. Gwen Gale 09:47, 6 January 2007 (UTC)
  • "When his secret was discovered, Teena was raped and murdered by former friends." "A poignant case of hidden gender", Daily Telegraph, 17 April 2004
This doesn't Google at all. Unverified. Gwen Gale 09:47, 6 January 2007 (UTC)
  • "... raped and killed in Nebraska 10 years ago after two male acquaintances found out that although he lived as a man", "Three go on trial in transgender hate crime case", Houston Chronicle, 15 March 2004
This doesn't Google at all. Unverified. Gwen Gale 09:47, 6 January 2007 (UTC)
  • "...raped and later murdered by two men after they discovered he wasn't born a man.", "Killing helped advance transgender rights", The Columbian, 1 January 2004
This Googles to a single blog. Unverified Gwen Gale 10:05, 6 January 2007 (UTC)
  • "...raped and later murdered by two men after they discovered he wasn't born a man." "Community remembers tragedy that inspired 'Boys Don't Cry' Killing spurred activism among transgendered", Charleston Gazette, 29 December 2003
This Googles to a CNN article and some personal sites that copied it. Gwen Gale 09:47, 6 January 2007 (UTC)
  • "Prosecutors said he was killed in a farmhouse on New Year's Eve 1993", "Death row inmate loses appeal for DNA testing", AP, 27 September 2003
This Googles to a single personal/advocacy blog but I can't find any confirmation it's a genuine AP quote. Gwen Gale 09:47, 6 January 2007 (UTC)
  • "...did not surgically transition to male but successfully passed for a long time preceding his death...", "Sex and Sensibility", The Washington Post, 10 November 2002
This Googles to a single advocacy site but I can't find any confirmation that it's a genuine Washington Post quote. Gwen Gale 09:47, 6 January 2007 (UTC)
Most of your citations don't verify to the cited source, but to personal blogs and advocacy sites (or not at all). So far your assertion that Brandon Teena was very widely referred to as "he" in the press at that time seems to be unsupported.
Moreover, you have not yet responded to my request for citations supporting your assertion that like Wikipedia, the vast majority of the reputable press has similar points in their manuals of style. Gwen Gale 09:47, 6 January 2007 (UTC)
Nice try. No, they do not verify to personal blogs and advocacy sites. They verify to Factiva, the massive Dow Jones-run database of most newspaper articles from virtually all major newspapers in the last three decades. The vast majority of newspaper articles are, if they are put online at all, taken down by most newspapers, which should be strikingly obvious to anyone who has even attempted basic research online, which is why they are not in Google.
Should you choose to actually go to a library and check Factiva (should you not have access yourself), or, god forbid, check the newspapers themselves (since I have provided enough information for you to do so), feel free. In my search, I found virtually no references to Brandon Teena as "she" in the past five years (since the AP changed its manual of style, and the vast majority of others followed suit). I have provided the proof; it is now up to you to actually provide any evidence of your claims that any reputable source (let alone the majority of them) continues to refer to Brandon Teena as "she". Rebecca 10:43, 6 January 2007 (UTC)
  • Most AP articles linger on at least a few scattered and sundry sites licensed to carry them for years on end. There should be more evidence of their existence on the open web.
  • If you haven't seen Brandon referred to as a she, I can only offer the following quick and unscientific spot check:

First ten hits for "Brandon Teena" on Google (These can change depending on what server one gets)

Crime Library refers to BT as a she.

In this interview Teena's mother refers to BT as a she.

JusticeJunction refers to BT as a she.

The first review at imdb refers to BT as a she.

GLBTQ, an advocacy site, refers to BT as a he.

An editorial review at Amazon.com refers to BT as a he.

The UBL site has an empty scrapper template for BT with no content.

This personal advocacy page contains both he and she references to BT.

Gender.org, an advocacy site, uses skilled (and in my humble opinion very acceptable) writing techniques to avoid the use of personal pronouns for BT altogether.

Afterellen.com, an advocacy site, refers to BT as a he.

Meanwhile your sarcasm and personal attacks are not helpful. Please stop that. Please support your assertion that like Wikipedia, the vast majority of the reputable press has similar points in their manuals of style. So far, I think I've at least demonstrated that referring to Brandon Teena as a she is not vandalsim, nor the act of a troll. Moreover, User:RyanFreisling has shown that the BBC referred to BT as a she. Gwen Gale 10:51, 6 January 2007 (UTC)

I've pointed out that there were very few references to Brandon Teena as "she" in the English-language press in the last five years (since the AP changed their MOS), or at least not out of the millions of articles archived on Factiva. I've given you a sample from a wide variety of different, highly-reputable news sources. You've given me one article. I also find it amusing that the same person who was three hours ago insisting on "scholarly citations" is now relying on an IMDB review and two personal websites to try and back up her argument. Rebecca 11:15, 6 January 2007 (UTC)

I have a number of concerns here:

  • You have not at all supported your assertion that there are very few references to BT as a she in the English-language press and your assertions that you have done are troubling.
  • Moreover, the cites you provided to support the use of he mostly don't verify at all, except mostly to advocacy sites. This doesn't at all match previous experiences I've had in successfully tracking down wire and print articles on the web. Yeah, this may bear further work on my part.
  • Your subjective use of the term "highly reputable" is fraught with opportunities for PoV, intimidation, misunderstanding and unsupported assertion.
  • I haven't given you any articles at all. User:RyanFreisling provided the article in response to a request I made.
  • I specifically characterized the Google spot check as unscientific and provided it to you only as a courtesy, to show you that BT is indeed referred to as a she in the mainstream. I'd never use a personal website to support any edit I might make to an article (and I don't think I ever have). Please don't conflate my good faith attempt to quickly show you some casual pronoun usage with my request that you provide scholarly, peer reviewed support for the use of male personal pronouns in the article.
  • As an aside though, and an important one, I do assert that referring to the murder victim as a she is neither trollish, transphobic, nor vandalism, as demonstrated by the BBC article cited by User:RyanFreisling and the interview with BT's mother which appears on the commercial site in the Google list (yes, I'm finally "giving" you a single article, but only to support this, my only direct assertion so far).
  • Please support your assertion that like Wikipedia, the vast majority of the reputable press has similar points in their manuals of style. Gwen Gale 11:30, 6 January 2007 (UTC)
I have given you plenty of sources for Brandon Teena being referred to as "he" in a variety of highly reputable mainstream media, and I have given you enough information to verify this on your own, whether by Factiva itself or by checking newspaper archives. I have pointed out that I found very, very few sources that referred to him as "she", which you are welcome to also verify by Factiva. If your "successful experience in tracking down articles" involves whacking a few words into Google, I suggest you get some more experience. Nearly all of the "mainstream" sources you referred to referred to him as he; only an IMDB review and two personal websites referred otherwise. This is not verifiable evidence in the slightest. I've indulged you and provided sources to counter your claims; you have not provided the slightest evidence to back up your own. If you want anyone to take you seriously, you'll have to abide by our basic standards of verifiability. Rebecca 11:50, 6 January 2007 (UTC)
I haven't referred to any mainstream sources but one! Are you carefully reading my posts or what? Anyway, here is a list of five raw URLs to either mainstream commercial media or educational sites (one additional personal page at an edu is included because it looks reliable) which refer to BT as a she:

http://www.highbeam.com/doc/1P1-47345400.html
http://net.unl.edu/swi/pers/tbrandon.html
http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/americas/3219591.stm
http://www.jour.unr.edu/outpost/entertainment/ent.alian.boysdontcry.html
http://www.yaleherald.com/archive/xxix/2000.01.14/ae/p18dontcry.html
http://archive.salon.com/ent/col/srag/2000/03/09/peirce/index.html

It is clear that both pronoun usages occur in what you would call "highly reputable" MSM sources. What I'd like to see is scholarly support for the use of a male pronoun. Gwen Gale 12:02, 6 January 2007 (UTC)
Oh, and I'd still like to see some support for your assertion that like Wikipedia, the vast majority of the reputable press has similar points in their manuals of style. Gwen Gale 12:12, 6 January 2007 (UTC)

The first link refers to an AP story before they changed their MOS in late 2001, so that isn't particularly relevant these days. The second has quotes from a lot of biased parties, with both used about equally. The third was quoted above. The fourth is a movie review from some random university student website, and hardly very reliable. The fifth is a movie review from a student newspaper. And the sixth is an opinion piece on a website. You are trying to claim that this article should use female pronouns, yet so far you've been able to come up with all of one instance of that usage in a reputable source. Until you actually provide some sort of reputable evidence to back up your claims (beyond citing random websites you found in Google), then I think we're wasting our time here. Rebecca 12:18, 6 January 2007 (UTC)

First, you're mistaken about those links. The first is a copy of an Associated Press article referring to BT as a she. The second is a personal page at an edu site which I threw in only because it seems well-written. The third is a BBC article referring to BT as a she. The fourth is a University of Nevada Outpost movie review. The fifth is a Yale Herald article and the sixth is Salon. "one instance of that usage in a reputable source"? Hardly. My only purpose in citing these particular examples is to support my assertion that referring to BT as a she is neither trollish, nor transphobic, nor vandalistic. By the bye her mother refers to her as a she, as referenced above. Please stop misrepresenting the content of my posts, thanks. Gwen Gale 14:29, 6 January 2007 (UTC)
Anyway... "Claims"? Sorry, you're clearly not reading my posts (maybe skimming though, then glancing at the links but only to find stuff to criticize or whatever). Please support the article's use of male pronouns with scholarly citations. You have not done so. Gwen Gale 13:53, 6 January 2007 (UTC)

"Girls Don't Cry"

There's a question whether the Pet Shop Boys song is really inspired by the movie. The citation I managed to locate is here, in what seems to be a fansite of some sort. The site attributes the information to the PSB official site, which is flash-based and therefore not very searcheable or linkable. I googled part of the quote he provides, and I can't find another source for it. Quite a few people seem to believe the song is about BT, but a solid citation from the songwriters would be preferable. LeaHazel : talk : contribs 17:05, 28 February 2007 (UTC)

Try this hard string search on Google, 75 hits with only the 3 specific text strings within the quotes, "Brandon Teena" "Pet Shop Boys" and "Girls Don't Cry" although some of those listed are but mirrors of this article. Gwen Gale 17:20, 28 February 2007 (UTC)
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