Talk:Born This Way (song)

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Good articleBorn This Way (song) has been listed as one of the Music good articles under the good article criteria. If you can improve it further, please do so. If it no longer meets these criteria, you can reassess it.
Article milestones
DateProcessResult
May 11, 2011Peer reviewReviewed
July 3, 2011Good article nomineeListed
Current status: Good article

Dispute: one editor say the genre is pop, other say disco. Sources prove to be pop.[edit]

TheMagnificentist, you have continuously reverted the sourced genre of Disco and tried time and time again to replace with an unreliable source for genres like AllMusic here. Explain your changes with proper reasoning here and peruse of the WP:RSN for abiding by what constitutes a reliable source. —IB [ Poke ] 21:48, 3 September 2016 (UTC)[reply]

-The source you cited also claims that the genre is pop. No where did it mention that the genre is disco. Furthermore, it was never cited before I added the citation there. - TheMagnificentist (talk) 23:51, 4 September 2016 (UTC)[reply]
Explanation: Myself and this editor IndianBio are disputing regarding the genre of a Lady Gaga song called Born This Way. I added the genre as pop with citation whereas he keeps reverting my edits without giving citation. He also provoked me by swearing at me on his talk page in the edit summary. Besides that, he claims to have given a source on the talk page of Born This Way but even that source proves that my edit is right (pop). My opinion is this person refuses to be corrected. I believe it's a pride issue as I have met people of this characteristics before. However, I have nothing personal against this person. - TheMagnificentist (talk) 00:04, 5 September 2016 (UTC)[reply]
Lol, the source clearly says Born This Way is a thumping, almost disco anthem that stomps along until the chorus crashes in with the weight of a discarded meat dress. Ignorant much? And AllMusic is not a reliable source for genres. And I just don't give a fuck about what you think of me. —IB [ Poke ] 22:12, 3 September 2016 (UTC)[reply]
And Disco was always sourced in the article body. Please refer to WP:LEAD, content sourced in the body does not need to be sourced in lead. —IB [ Poke ] 22:16, 3 September 2016 (UTC)[reply]
"almost disco anthem" is not the same as "disco anthem". Also, that doesn't mean it's a disco song. You are just fabricating. This is from your source "It's one of the most tweeted, blogged and hyped pop singles in recent memory." and yet it directly says "pop singles". I'm sure everyone else would agree with my point. - TheMagnificentist (talk) 22:23, 5 September 2016 (UTC)[reply]
Because its my a pop artist? How difficult it is to get? And AllMusic is not a reliable source for genre. Find a better one else it will be reverted. —IB [ Poke ] 22:25, 3 September 2016 (UTC)[reply]
Fine, we will use your source but the genre will be pop. - TheMagnificentist (talk) 22:26, 5 September 2016 (UTC)[reply]
@TheMagnificentist: I don't think you're getting the point. The way you're using AllMusic is not how it's supposed to be used. Please refrain from removing a genre that has already been sourced and proved. Carbrera (talk) 22:31, 3 September 2016 (UTC)[reply]
@Carbrera: I believe you're missing the point (which is to provide real information) and clearly no sources have ever proved that disco is the genre of this song - TheMagnificentist (talk) 22:32, 5 September 2016 (UTC)[reply]
@TheMagnificentist: The Guardian clearly proves you otherwise. Just because Gaga is a pop singer, a pop song does not make. Plus, your edit summary is alluding to something neither IndianBio or myself know about, as we never "agreed on talk page, the genre will be pop". Carbrera (talk) 22:35, 3 September 2016 (UTC)[reply]
@Carbrera: From The Guardian: "No, it's another storming pop tune", "It's one of the most tweeted, blogged and hyped pop singles in recent memory." Also it's written 'pop' on the iTunes page of this song. Many other sources too. The only source that mentioned the word disco is being used incorrectly. - TheMagnificentist (talk) 22:38, 5 September 2016 (UTC)[reply]
@TheMagnificentist: I would recommend properly citing the source due to GA criteria. Carbrera (talk) 22:41, 3 September 2016 (UTC)[reply]
iTunes source[1] and I assumed he agreed because he didn't respond back to my argument. — Preceding unsigned comment added by TheMagnificentist (talk • contribs) 22:43, 3 September 2016 (UTC)[reply]
@TheMagnificentist: That is not a good source to prove a genre. Carbrera (talk) 22:45, 3 September 2016 (UTC)[reply]
Can you suggest a good source? because I'm 85% sure that your source will say it's pop too. - TheMagnificentist (talk) 22:46, 5 September 2016 (UTC)[reply]
@TheMagnificentist: I'm not saying my source won't say it's a pop tune, but what I am saying is that iTunes is never used (especially for a GA) to prove a composition's genre. Carbrera (talk) 22:47, 3 September 2016 (UTC)[reply]
Source provided by IndianBio stated that it's a "pop single". I think that marks the end of this dispute (unless you want to argue that The Guardian is not a good source) - TheMagnificentist (talk) 22:49, 5 September 2016 (UTC)[reply]
A pop single does not make it a genre rather a composition section where it talks about it being a disco. TheMagnificentist your bullshit claims of the song being just a pop song because Gaga is a pop artist has no real basis. And you kept on edit warring over the content when multiple editors have reverted you. You have failed to gain consensus here. —IB [ Poke ] 10:07, 4 September 2016 (UTC)[reply]
  • Just to break down all the sources:
    • The Guardian "Gaga has endeavoured to Say Something Important, a campaign begun with the album's first single, "Born This Way". It might have felt too big and too obvious a disco statement, but there are heartlands out there where the track undoubtedly hit home."
    • [Born This Way is a thumping, almost disco anthem that stomps along until the chorus crashes in with the weight of a discarded meat dress. The Guardian original source] "Born This Way is a thumping, almost disco anthem that stomps along until the chorus crashes in with the weight of a discarded meat dress."
    • MTV News "..Mother Monster belt out her hits, including her latest smash, the anthemic disco number "Born This Way."
    • PopMatters "... with her myriad group of influences, resulting in tunes that harkens back to classic ‘70s disco (“Born This Way”),"
    • Fuse (talks about disco being inspiration) "... Lady Gaga’s “Born This Way” bears the mark of its many inspirations, from ‘70s disco to experimental art to Madonna, but its gospel roosts might be most interesting."
    • Slant Magazine "...The lyrics, widely snickered at online when Gaga leaked them late last month, work better in this catchy, disco-trash context, but “Born This Way” is still dripping with schmaltz."
    • Rolling Stone makes it more specific "Don't be a drag/Just be a queen," Lady Gaga chants in this instant-classic club anthem, over the Eurodisco beats of producers Fernando"
    • Dallas Observer ".. But, as anyone who has heard Gaga's latest single, "Born This Way," knows, her disco remix of Madonna's "Express Yourself" is about as unoriginal as Gaga gets."
  • I can go on and on and on. And I will revert your mal-additions to change the genre. —IB [ Poke ] 10:07, 4 September 2016 (UTC)[reply]

@IndianBio:: These sources DO NOT prove that the genre is disco. Once again, you refuse to be corrected because of your pride. Just because the sources had the word disco in it doesn't mean it is the genre. Some words found are "discography", "art-disco avatar", "disco number", "disco stick (a line of lyrics in a song)" and "gay disco tradition". Do you even know what these words mean? How do you believe that these words are linked to the genre? This is clear vandalism. Yesterday you criticized me for using a source "Allmusic" which may be reliable but you denied, and today you are multiple unreliable sources such as "Popmatters", "FuseTV", "Dallasobserver" and so on. You have a personal grudge against me for correcting your edits. I hope an admin will take notice of this. @Ritchie333:, @Widr: @MusikAnimal:

@TheMagnificentist: How does these sources not prove that the genre is disco? You seem to be avoiding the topic, and I am more than willing to listen to your side of this argument. Carbrera (talk) 04:30, 5 September 2016 (UTC).[reply]

@Carbrera: These sources cited by IndianBio are not even about the genre disco. They mentioned the word "pop" a lot more than the word "disco". The first source (The Guardian) for example: mentioned the word "disco" four times, all unrelated to the genre (the same source mentioned "pop" ten times more).

Source #1 - The Guardian (4 mentions)

  • "on a disco-pop album" = referring to Gaga's album, not the song.
  • "too obvious a disco statement" = referring to the title, suggesting it to be 'diva'-ish.
  • "Eurodisco sides" = referring to a topic about "hair".
  • "art-disco avatar" = referring to Gaga's image.

As you can see, the word "disco" has been used to describe other things which are not related to the genre. You said I'm avoiding the topic but you're actually either pretending to not see the truth or you're just biased. I mean, all you need to do is to read the articles and you can see that they don't mean anything.

Source #2 - MTV (1 mention)

  • "the anthemic disco number" = referring to the number.

Source #3 - Popmatters (4 mentions) (probably unreliable)

  • "the discovery of Chicago" = referring to another artist.
  • "modern Eurodisco" = referring to the style of Chicago-based DJ White Shadow.
  • "back to classic ‘70s disco" = referring to a 70s music style.
  • "your disco stick" = referring to lyrics in a Gaga's song.

Source #4 - Fuse TV (6 mentions) (probably unreliable)

  • "from ‘70s disco to experimental art" = referring to a comparison.
  • "Hi-NRG disco" = referring to a song by Patrick Hernandez.
  • "gospel-disco" = referring to the lyrics.
  • "gospel as disco" = referring to the song being different culturally.
  • "pop discourse" = referring to the lyrics.
  • "underground disco standard" = referring to another artist called Bunny Jones.

Source #5 - Slantmagazine (1 mention) (probably unreliable)

  • "disco-trash context" = referring to the lyrics.

Source #6 - Rollingstone (2 mentions)

  • "Eurodisco" = referring to the style of Chicago-based DJ White Shadow.
  • "gay disco tradition" = referring to the tradition.

Source #7 - Dallasobserver (2 mentions) (probably unreliable)

  • "disco remix" = referring to another artist's song.
  • "disco beat" = referring to the lyrics.

- TheMagnificentist (talk) 06:22, 5 September 2016 (UTC)[reply]

Do whatever you want TheMagnificentist, I'm done with your fuckery. —IB [ Poke ] 11:02, 5 September 2016 (UTC)[reply]
Response to third opinion request :
From what I can see in this thread, most sources categorize the song as pop, but many of them mention that it reminds them as disco. It should be noted that saying that something is "almost disco" or "disco-like" ipso facto means that it is not disco. I would keep this in the pop music genre, but mention in the body of the article that it is similar to disco, or reminiscent of disco-style music, or something along those lines. Bradv 20:55, 30 January 2017 (UTC)[reply]

References

  1. ^ https://itunes.apple.com/us/album/born-this-way/id902096524

TheMagnificentist is now renamed as "Zawl", which has eventually been blocked as a sock. 2402:1980:307:9B8A:3238:9E88:6136:880B (talk) 02:50, 12 March 2020 (UTC)[reply]

External links modified[edit]

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Obscenity[edit]

@IndianBio: "Born This Way" was censored in Malaysia and called racist for its use of racial terminology - I think this qualifies as an obscenity controversy.MagicatthemovieS (talk) 23:13, 10 February 2019 (UTC)MagicatthemovieS[reply]

Umbrella term. As per the definition, obscenity corresponds to something of a sexual, or salacious nature. So unless this racial controversy with the song's lyrics was deemed as obscene (in reliable sources), the category fails inclusion under original research. Same goes for all the other ones that you were reverted from. —IB [ Poke ] 23:19, 10 February 2019 (UTC)[reply]
@IndianBio: There are multiple definitions of the word obscenity. Something can be obscene if it "offends moral principals" according to the dictionary, so per that definition, the song and album are obscene, as they were censored and banned, according to the articles. Do you now understand my edits?MagicatthemovieS (talk) 01:53, 11 February 2019 (UTC)Magicatthemovie[reply]
Censoring and banning is not equal to offending moral principals. Censorship here was clearly pejorative. My point is lets not go adding categories for the sake of it. —IB [ Poke ] 14:43, 11 February 2019 (UTC)[reply]

Music video[edit]

This source (2021 interview with Nick Knight) could be worked into the article: https://www.papermag.com/nick-knight-born-this-way-2653061128.html?rebelltitem=25#rebelltitem25 Sricsi (talk) 15:44, 14 October 2022 (UTC)[reply]

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