Talk:Alexander Van der Bellen

Smoker

He is a self-confessed smoker.

– Sounds funny. Smoking may be very bad for one's health, but it's not a crime – at least not yet. Sca (talk) 17:27, 23 May 2016 (UTC)

Self-acknowledged isn't much better. Why are we mentioning this? How is it relevant to his status as a political figure? Deleted. Sca (talk) 21:54, 23 May 2016 (UTC)

Smoking is a political issue in Austria. Many Austrians smoke and the issue of being reformist and progressive or conservative and traditional is linked in minds with smoking and attitudes towards it. Just because you sca are not familiar with Austrian politics - does not mean this should be deleted. I note you did not take the same attitude to religion which also has no crime aspect linked with it.

213.162.68.69 (talk) 20:14, 4 December 2016 (UTC)Mpetz213.162.68.69 (talk)

The German Wikipedia page does not mention his smoking - not that this is a conclusive authority - but I think we should keep that in mind as it is far more thorough. Perhaps an article about smoking as a political/societal issue would be a better place to mention his smoking (although I don't know of any such article). I'm not sure it is relevant enough for this page, but if there is precedence where smoking is mentioned in articles on Austrian Politicians then I think it would be fair to include here. BananaCarrot152 (talk) 20:07, 6 December 2016 (UTC)

Ancestry

The president-elect's mother Alma (née Siebold, born 1907) was, at least for all bureaucratic purposes, an ethnic Estonian. How she may have understood or identified herself in terms of "ethnicity" at various stages of her life, ultimately one can only guess, but it appears from the family-tree data compiled from Estonian archives [ https://www.facebook.com/551068118254360/photos/pb.551068118254360.-2207520000.1464022815./1459283364099493/?type=3&theater ] that all of Alma's 8 greatgrandparents were born in Estonia, were typical ethnic Estonians, and most, if not all, farmers in terms of family profession. On the other side, Alexander Van der Bellen's paternal grandmother, Adele Emilie (née Reymann, born 1867), with her somewhat more "geographically and socially mixed" ancestry, would indeed have appeared to fit the contemporary lay definition of a "Baltic German". Cheers, 217.71.46.189 (talk) 08:31, 24 May 2016 (UTC)

Estonia did not exist until World War I (after everyone involved was born) so even just on the face of it your claim "born in Estonia" is absurd. And anyways Facebook is not even remotely a reliable source on Wikipedia. Loginnigol (talk) 14:09, 24 May 2016 (UTC)

Estonia is not only a state, but also a country, and as such a reasonably specific, i.e. good geographic term to describe and discuss who was born where before WWI. The referenced Facebook page belongs to the Tallinn City Archive, which adds a bit to its reliability. Loginnigol, please relax, and better luck with the choice of words next time around, cheers! 217.71.46.189 (talk) 16:44, 24 May 2016 (UTC)

"State" and "country" mean the same thing, politically. Estonia existed as a region prior to it becoming a political entity, because a large nation of Estonians reside there and the land was referred to reflecting that. 68.19.5.207 (talk) 23:42, 31 May 2016 (UTC)

First language of parents

The source, an interview with Van der Bellen in Die Zeit[1], specifically says that his parents' first language was Russian

"Russisch, die Erstsprache seiner Eltern, hat der talentierte Sohn nie gelernt. Sein Wortschatz beschränkt sich auf Vokabel wie durak (Idiot) oder tschort wosmi (verdammt): "Meine Eltern wollten bei mir alles vermeiden, das darauf hinweist, dass wir Flüchtlinge sind", sagt er. Erst 1958 wurden die Van der Bellens österreichische Staatsbürger."

I'm admittedly no expert on Estonia, but it seems plausible to me that a citizen of Imperial Russia, a multi-lingual and multi-ethnic state, could speak Russian as her first language even if her ancestry seemed to be mostly Estonian, and even if most ethnic Estonians spoke Estonian as their first language. Also, the source does not say that his parents spoke Russian with each other when he grew up, but rather that they avoided teaching their son Russian, apparently keen to assimilate into the German language culture where they lived in Austria. So it seems likely that they mainly spoke German with each other when he grew up. --Tataral (talk) 11:37, 26 May 2016 (UTC)

The scenario you described could have been plausible in other situations with second- or third-generation migrants in some more distant corners of Imperial Russia (depending a bit on what we understand by "first language"). However, not so in Alma's case. She only had a chance to live in Russia proper between 1907-1917 (age 0-10), her parents having recently moved there from nearby Estonia (to Pskov, where his father had started working as a pharmacist only shortly before Alma's birth). Her parents spoke Estonian at home, so Alma would have started learning Russian, in essence, from her playmates and, for a couple of years, Russian schoolmates and teachers. After her family moved back to Estonia in 1917, Alma continued her studies and lived in a dominantly Estonian language environment until 1941 (i.e., from age 10 to age 34), and even if she would have used mostly Russian and German in conversations with her (after 1931) husband Alexander, it would not have made Russian her "first language"; unless we somehow call the language one speaks most often at any given period of time one's (then) "first language". 3 Löwi (talk) 16:07, 28 May 2016 (UTC)

Atheism/Deism

There have been conflicting edits on whether Van der Bellen is an atheist or a Deist.

In his quote, he says he does not believe in God. That makes him an atheist. Even if he bases his morals on Jesus as he says, he is still an atheist. There are atheists who culturally follow the traditions of religions, and there are certainly atheists who admire Jesus (Mikhail Gorbachev called him the first socialist, and being the leader of the Soviets he obviously meant that as a compliment).

Deists believe in God but consider him incomprehensible to man, and something which takes no business in daily affairs in the mortal world. Examples of this include Napoleon, who was a cultural Catholic. Napoleon believed in God but not in the shape that the Catholic establishment set out; Van der Bellen publicly said he does not believe in God.

Please discuss before changing him to being a "Deist" again. '''tAD''' (talk) 15:32, 2 July 2016 (UTC)

In 2019 he stated in an interview that he re-joined the Evangelical Church.[2] I changed the categories accordingly.Gugganij (talk) 12:27, 1 May 2019 (UTC)

Template for "Germanic name"

While he himself today in a modern context is usually referred to as Van der Bellen, it is perfectly acceptable from a linguistic/cultural point of view, and indeed quite normal (depending on context), to refer to someone whose name is van/von/de/di X as simply X without the particle (which may or may not be an indication of nobility). This has nothing to do with whether the name is "Germanic" at all, but is a common feature for European names with such particles. The name proper is really only the X part, and the particle can be omitted in some contexts. From a purist perspective, many would argue that referring to someone as van/von/de/di X (without the given name) is wrong, and that it must either be the full name, (given name) van/von/de/di X or only X (in the same way we wouldn't call Prince Harry simply "of Wales", as in "of Wales opened a new supermarket"). --Tataral (talk) 13:18, 5 December 2016 (UTC)

In fact it is normal to refer to Maistre, Metternich and Bismarck without the preposition. However, we should follow common usage, whether or not it is technically correct. TFD (talk) 13:43, 5 December 2016 (UTC)

This was not about which usage we should follow in the article (I agree we should use Van der Bellen) but about an unnecessary template telling readers that using the name without the particle is wrong (which is not really correct) and that this is because the name is "Germanic" (it has nothing to do with the Germanic-ness of the name). --Tataral (talk) 14:12, 5 December 2016 (UTC)

The name template is perfectly acceptable; it can be used to avoid confusion as some people who don't understand some surname conventions may think "van der" is a middle name. See, for example, Jozias van Aartsen; a similar template is used there. Linguist ^Moi? Moi. 14:26, 5 December 2016 (UTC)

No it isn't, this isn't about whether we call him "Van der Bellen" or about avoiding confusion but about an unneccessary template which tells readers that it's somehow by definition always wrong to use the name without the particle (which is wrong) and that this is because the name is Germanic (which is also wrong). The template makes incorrect and over-simplistic claims about a matter which is much more nuanced. If there is a need to explain the nature of the "van der" name part better, this should be done in the body of the article, in the section on his family background (which already includes a discussion of the name, how it changed from von der to van der etc.). --Tataral (talk) 14:31, 5 December 2016 (UTC)

You are referring to the hatnote, "This is a Germanic name; the family name is Van der Bellen, not Bellen."[3] I see no need for the template. Whether the family name is Van der Bellen or Bellen is a matter of choice by the family, they do not have to follow rules, and in almost all cases Dutch surnames include the preposition as part of the name. I guess Dutch is Germanic, but Germanic languages have different grammars. TFD (talk) 14:55, 5 December 2016 (UTC)

Whether for example Bismarck is referred to as "Otto von Bismarck", or perhaps Otto Eduard Leopold, Prince of Bismarck, or simply as Bismarck, is really an editorial question that is up to the writer, not something Bismarck can dictate. None of them would be formally wrong. In this case, the main issue is that the template (hatnote) doesn't serve any meaningful purpose and makes over-simplistic statements about an issue that is better addressed below; we also already have one hatnote, and should avoid cluttering up the article with unneccessary additional hatnotes. In general, an article should preferably not have more than one hatnote. --Tataral (talk) 16:57, 5 December 2016 (UTC)

The issue is whether he is referred to as "Bismarck" or "Von Bismarck" or "von Bismarck." It is not a matter of editorial judgment, but we should state his name the way it is stated in reliable sources. And that is based on what people call themselves, for example whether today he would list his name in the phonebook under "B" or "V/v." TFD (talk) 17:27, 5 December 2016 (UTC)

I'm not quite sure what we are discussing; the purpose of this discussion was to point out that we don't need the hatnote for various reasons, not to propose that we refer to him in any other way than Van der Bellen. --Tataral (talk) 17:58, 5 December 2016 (UTC)

The family name determines how we refer to him. If the family name was Bellen, rather than Van der Bellen, that is how we would refer to him throughout the article. Compare with David Lloyd George, where the hatnote says, "In this name, the family name is Lloyd George, not George." So he is referred to as Lloyd George throughout the article and of course that is based on what he called himself, rather than any Germanic surname rules. TFD (talk) 14:57, 6 December 2016 (UTC)

Semi-protected edit request on 7 December 2016

In the article it says: On 4 December 2016 Van der Bellen defeated Hofer in the re-run of the election with around 53.3% of the votes

But actually it were 53,8% ! 185.29.188.129 (talk) 22:16, 7 December 2016 (UTC)

Fixed -- thanks for the request! BananaCarrot152 (talk) 23:39, 7 December 2016 (UTC)

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Changed his birth to Vienna, Germany

In 1944 (the year he was born) Vienna was part of Nazi Germany, so I made the change to reflect this. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Pc Retro (talk • contribs) 20:12, 24 April 2018 (UTC)

12th

Why are we not numbering this president, when all his predecessors are numbered? GoodDay (talk) 18:16, 1 December 2018 (UTC)

Citizenship

How could Van del Bellen be an Estonian citizen in 1958 if at that time Estonia did not exist as a State? Was he stateless? — Preceding unsigned comment added by 93.47.167.132 (talk) 15:57, 3 June 2020 (UTC)

According to the source in the German wikipedia article, he remained an Estonian citizen despite the country not existing in practice. "Obwohl es den Staat nicht mehr gibt, bleiben die Van der Bellens estnische Staatsbürger" ("despite the state not existing anymore, the Van der Bellens remained Estonian citizens").[4] I think this might be because while Estonia did not exist in practice (de facto), some other countries still recognized it in a legal sense (de jure). BananaCarrot152 (talk) 18:43, 3 June 2020 (UTC)