Talk:Ages of consent in Europe

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This article is part of the Age of consent series of articles project.

In the interest of accuracy and quality it was decided by consensus^* to hold these pages to a high standard of verification and to avoid ambiguity through the use of prose (not dot points) discussing the relevant statutes, case law or other authorities.

To this end all information must be properly referenced. Where writing about legislation or other law, the appropriate statutes and similar must be cited. Where appropriate, portions of the legislation can be quoted. Where possible, a link to an up-to-date online copy of the legislation can be included (preferably, but not necessarily, in English). It is preferable to include any such references in-line, rather than in a separate <ref> section at the bottom of the page. This is to make it easier for readers to find the references in context.

The unfettered age of consent should be in bold text, in order that it stand out. No other ages should be in bold text. Any exceptions to should then be discussed afterwards (close in age exceptions, same sex relations etc).

For an example of a properly formatted article see the Ages of consent in Australia and Oceania.

*(The original age of consent formatting discussions began here)

The articles in this group are	Helpful repositories of legislation
Age of consent Age of consent reform Ages of consent in Africa Ages of consent in Asia Ages of consent in Oceania (including Australia) Ages of consent in Europe Ages of consent in North America Ages of consent in the United States Ages of consent in South America Age of consent in Brazil List of countries by age of consent	Worldlii: Global Austlii: Australia Bailii: Britain and Ireland Canlii: Canada Commonlii: Commonwealth Cylaw: Cyprus Droit: French HKlii: Hong Kong	Juri Burkina Cornell law NZlii: New Zealand Paclii: Pacific Islands Saflii: Southern Africa

Please note that ageofconsent.com is not an acceptable reference as it has not been updated since 2002.

Mention of illicit sex under Vatican City[edit]

As of the 20:08 3 October 2021 revision, it is pointed out that sex between unmarried persons is illicit. However, there is no mention of any criminal liability if a minor is not involved. The only pertinent aspect of this would involve a marriage where one or both parties to a marriage are minors, but since Vatican City adheres to the general principle that sex between married parties is not subject to prohibitions on underage sex, this isn't relevant. It seems to me that unless the law provides for prosecution of sex between unmarried adults, this statement should be deleted. Comments? Fabrickator (talk) 23:59, 3 October 2021 (UTC)[reply]

terminology for age of consent articles[edit]

@Guarapiranga: A recent "archive" from this talk page made me wonder whether or not we have general agreement about certain aspects of the "age of consent" series of articles. Before I get into that, I want to point out that the talk page of every article in this series includes (or at least it's supposed to include) an invocation of the Age of consent pages discussion header.

My specific concern regards the phrase "unfettered age of consent". In Talk:Ages of consent in Europe/Archive 2#Unfettered age of consent, some editors (you know who you are) claim that

"unfettered age of consent" is to be interpreted literally

While other editors take the position that

"unfettered age of consent" is to be interpreted in a relative sense

.Avoiding the phrase "unfettered age of consent" is not an option, because the "discussion header" specifies circumstances when the "unfettered age of consent" is implied.

My perspective on this is to treat "unfettered age of consent" as a relative term. It always has been a relative term, and treating it as an absolute term would render it useless. I don't want to re-discuss this if it isn't necessary, but if you disagree, please speak up and I shall make the case. OTOH, if there has been a previous discussion where all interested editors achieved unanimity on accepting the "relative" interpretation, please let me know and I shall offer my apology. Fabrickator (talk) 03:55, 5 October 2021 (UTC)[reply]

What do you mean by relative and absolute in this instance? It's not clear. In the interest of this discussion, I'll just reiterate what I said 2 years ago:

Age of consent laws basically have exceptions and exemptions—exceptions typically made for relations of trust/authority, and exemptions for close-in-age relations. So what unfettered really ought to mean is un-fettered. For instance, The unfettered age of consent in Brazil truly is 14; no teacher can be convicted of statutory rape by having sexual relations with a 14-year old (and the close-in-age exemption goes as low as 12). The stated age of consent in Argentina is 13, on the surface looking even more liberal than Brazil, but if you look closely at the law, it's clear the unfettered age of consent is actually 18.^[1]

This being the case, the stated consent age means little, as it's variedly interpreted from jurisdiction to jurisdiction, and what can be materially differentiated is:

the minimum age people are deemed capable of sexual consent with restrictions on the age difference between partners;
the minimum age people are deemed capable of sexual consent with restrictions on differences of trust or authority between partners; and
the minimum age people are deemed capable of sexual consent without such restrictions.

— Guarapiranga ☎ 04:58, 9 October 2021 (UTC)[reply]

When I refer to a "relative" unfettered age of consent, as compared to an "absolute" unfettered age of consent, I mean that it's "relatively unfettered" as opposed to being "absolutely unfettered". So for instance, if it's unlawful to have sex with someone under the age of 16, but if that person is your student, then it's unlawful to have sex with them if they're under 18. At the same time, if you're less than 2 years older (and they aren't your student), you can have sex with them as long as they're at least 14. (I'll point out, that if you're 17 years and 3 months old, then the age of consent as it applies to persons with whom you may legally have sex, is 15 years and 3 months.)

In this case, an "absolute" unfettered age of consent is 18. By "relatively" unfettered age of consent, I mean that the age of consent is "relatively unfettered", i.e. the situations where the age of consent is higher are the "exception rather than the rule". So for most situations, the age of consent is 16. It's higher in some cases and/or it's lower in some other cases. Provided those exceptional cases don't apply to your situation, then this "relatively unfettered" age of consent is what applies. But if those exceptional cases do apply, then you have to consider how that affects the legality of the contemplated sexual relationship.

This is seemingly pretty clear from the "age of consent header", e.g.

The unfettered age of consent should be in bold text, in order that it stand out. No other ages should be in bold text. Any exceptions to should then be discussed afterwards ("close in age exceptions, same sex relations etc)

.In other words, "close in age" and "same sex relations" were exceptions to the unfettered age of consent. (For example, same sex relations might have required one's partner to be age 18 rather than age 16. Now "unfettered" may be a more appropriate term when the exceptions only result in a lower age at which sex is legal, but those tended to be the more common exceptions and/or the exceptions of greatest interest. BTW, there is also some relevant discussion about the "unfettered age of consent" at Talk:Age of consent/Archive 2 § Interpretation:

the concensus so far has been to focus on the unfettered age of consent and then mention as a side note in each jurisdiction their specific variations for close in age exceptions, homosexual relations, prohibitions on anal sex and so on as they exist.

Fabrickator (talk) 09:22, 9 October 2021 (UTC)[reply]

I found this very extended discussion of this issue from 2007 at Talk:Ages of consent in South America § "Unfettered" age of consent. I'm mostly mentioning this here for the sake of completeness, but one of the issues I did find interesting to consider was the effect of laws that allow for sex subject to parental consent below a certain age. For instance, the age of consent might be 13 with parental consent or 18 otherwise. Fabrickator (talk) 19:08, 18 October 2021 (UTC)[reply]

Age of consent in Switzerland[edit]

The age of consent in Switzerland isn't 16 in all cases. While the "three years age gap" thing has been mentioned (which seems not sufficiently detailed to me and could be easily misunderstood as a result), there is no mention of the cases where the age of consent is 18, for example when the person aged 16 or 17 is the other person's pupil.

Most of the data in this article could be turned into a table.[edit]

This article (not to mention the above discussion of "unfettered age of consent" whtaever that expression is meant to mean) is a complete mess, and could and should be simplified a lot by simply using a table, because:

This is an article about Europe, therefore Council of Europe and (for EU member states) EU law and jurisprudence matter.
Basically all European countries signed the Lanzarote Convention, therefore all are bound to make sex illegal in the cases where, even if the minor's age is above the general age of consent;
All Cuncil of Europe countries are bound to the rule that their age of consent rules must be fully equal when it comes to opposite-sex vs. same-sex sexual acts;
None of the Council of Europe (I hope...) or at least none of the EU/EEA countries allow things like the age of consent to be different depending on the parent's wishes, simply because among the duties a State must guarantee to its citizen and residents there is also the concept that a child is not a property of its own parents;
I think very few countries in Europe consider marriage an exemption from the age of consent too for the same reason: the State guarantees the right of every person to mental and physical integrety, and children are people too, and being in a marriage is not relevant to this.

Touyats (talk) 09:48, 3 December 2021 (UTC)[reply]

Up until 25 Apr 2021, it had one, but was destroyed. — Guarapiranga ☎ 03:10, 6 May 2022 (UTC)[reply]

Oh man, I would restore the table if I could commit to learning how. It needed to be improved, not removed. (Good rhyme, important motto.) — TARDIS builder^✉ ★ 05:41, 21 December 2022 (UTC)[reply]

Is it right to consider Turkey an European country?[edit]

Considering that is a transcontinental country, its population and religion, and that is not even a EU member, is it right to consider Turkey a European country? Shouldn't be created a page/article regarding specifically the age of consent in Turkey? 151.68.212.204 (talk) 01:24, 17 November 2022 (UTC)[reply]

"a page/article regarding specifically the age of consent in Turkey" You are free to create one, if you can find relevant sources. Religion is not much of a difference for Turkey, since Albania, Bosnia and Herzegovina, and Kosovo are also Muslim-majority countries in Europe. See the article on Islam in Europe. Dimadick (talk) 10:45, 19 November 2022 (UTC)[reply]

The main problem is the fact that is a transcontinental country. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 151.82.180.87 (talk) 14:59, 29 November 2022 (UTC)[reply]

Romania[edit]

This article says "In June, the Senate adopted Legislative Proposal L423/2022 regarding the amendment of the Criminal Code and the Criminal Procedure Code, which introduces an age limit (15 years) for valid consent in the case of sexual relations with minors. In the case of amendments to organic laws, the Chamber of Deputies is the decision-making chamber. The arguments for which the Chamber of Deputies must introduce 16 years as the limit of valid consent are very numerous and well-founded." It also says "Currently, there is no minimum age of the minor under which it is considered that he cannot give valid consent in the case of sexual intercourse with an adult partner or with a partner with an age difference of more than three years. This minimum age would eliminate the possibility of classifying the act as a crime of sexual intercourse with a minor and would classify it as a crime of rape." I think it's implying that there is currently no age of consent, but the proposal is to set an age of 15 (with some groups wanting an age of 16). 143.44.67.100 (talk) 21:21, 29 January 2023 (UTC)[reply]

No. The age of consent is 16, in that it is illegal to have sex with a child under 16 (with a close in age exemption of 3 years). The discussions are about setting an age under which the sexual act is automatically classified as rape rather than sexual intercourse with a minor as it is now (Actul sexual cu un minor - Article 220 of the Penal Code). Currently there is no such age, and sexual intercourse with a child under 16 may be classified either as rape or as illegal sexual intercourse with a minor, based on the circumstances (including the age and maturity of the child). But sex with a child under 16 is illegal, regardless of how it is classified. This is the bolded age that is shown in this article for all countries. It is not necessary for the act to be classified as rape, it is sufficient for it to be illegal. This has been already discussed on talk. 2A02:2F0F:B10E:6700:B4CE:BC19:25D0:1580 (talk) 06:22, 7 February 2023 (UTC)[reply]