Talk:2023 Nashville school shooting/Archive 1

Archive 1

Archive 2

Archive 3

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Archive 5

Weapons used section

Rifle, not Rife 100.10.88.94 (talk) 21:31, 27 March 2023 (UTC)

Extended-confirmed-protected edit request on 28 March 2023 (3)

Presbyterian organizations do not have parishes. They have presbyteries and below that they have congregations. Therefore, the word "parish" in the "Background" section should be changed to "congregation." Luzichick (talk) 01:47, 28 March 2023 (UTC)

 Done Snowmanonahoe (talk) 01:50, 28 March 2023 (UTC)

Shooter

WP:NOTFORUM Snowmanonahoe (talk) 13:11, 28 March 2023 (UTC)

When is the last time a woman or a girl caused a mass shooting like this? Because it was very unusual and kinda ultra rare. 2600:1702:5225:C010:617B:C3FA:73D:BEF1 (talk) 17:36, 27 March 2023 (UTC) This talkpage is for discussions about content of the article, you would probably be better of by asking at reference desk. A09 (talk) 18:02, 27 March 2023 (UTC) I assume you mean "the woman". "Female" is an adjective, not a noun, and referring to a woman as "a female" is objectifying. 2600:1700:4091:EAC0:787B:FF8E:C6A3:1667 (talk) 18:09, 27 March 2023 (UTC) Yeah, I should've changed the "female" name to "woman". But as I search through, I hope someone can answer it below as well. 2600:1702:5225:C010:849D:F65B:75C4:FD21 (talk) 18:10, 27 March 2023 (UTC) So there were minor incidents that were involved females, but the last time a female committed a mass shooting like this in campus or at a school was back in February 2010 when Amy Bishop killed three and injuring three in Huntsville's UOA. 2600:1702:5225:C010:849D:F65B:75C4:FD21 (talk) 18:51, 27 March 2023 (UTC) Not sure if this could be used instead but a source has "According to data kept by Statista Research Department, only three women have been responsible for a mass shooting in the country since 1982."Leaky.Solar (talk) 18:59, 27 March 2023 (UTC) I know one of which is Amy Bishop, the 2010 University of Huntsville shooting suspect. Should we just add that she became the first female mass school shooter in the United States since Huntsville? 2600:1702:5225:C010:849D:F65B:75C4:FD21 (talk) 19:20, 27 March 2023 (UTC) Not until WP:RS say so. We don't want to engage in WP:OR. Esb5415 (talk) 19:59, 27 March 2023 (UTC) Alright. Sounds like a great deal. 2600:1702:5225:C010:617B:C3FA:73D:BEF1 (talk) 20:20, 27 March 2023 (UTC) Leaky, I found something from the New York Post although this may not sound right. It said: "The database, which hasn’t yet accounted for the Nashville shooting, shows that just four out of the 191 mass shooters it has tracked since 1966 are females, and added that only two have partnered up with males". Only four out of 191 just seem not right. There were a bit more than four because it did not list some other mass shootings that were perpetrated by a female (such as the 2006 Goleta postal facility shootings and the 2010 University of Alabama shootings). Read this and tell me if this is very different than the other. 2600:1702:5225:C010:617B:C3FA:73D:BEF1 (talk) 21:32, 27 March 2023 (UTC) Two of you are saying something which is not correct. It's fairly simple to look up the number of shootings with female perpetrators. Justanother2 (talk) 12:11, 28 March 2023 (UTC) Are you sure? I know there were other incidents involving female perpetrators beforehand but we're talking about "mass" incidents you know that shocked the entire continent and those are rare by authorities. 2600:1702:5225:C010:7882:7F46:BC0F:6466 (talk) 12:32, 28 March 2023 (UTC) So Leaky, I found something that could be true. According to the website "Pinkvilla", Audrey became the seventh female mass shooter in United States history despite being transgender, behind Brenda Spencer, Jennifer San Marco, Amy Bishop, Tashfeen Malik, Latina Williams, and Nasim Aghdan, but was the fourth involving a school behind Spencer, Williams, and Bishop. 2600:1702:5225:C010:7882:7F46:BC0F:6466 (talk) 12:40, 28 March 2023 (UTC) No, it's not common or rare. Justanother2 (talk) 12:09, 28 March 2023 (UTC) Actually it is rare. Just look up how many mass incidents that were caused by a male. Nearly 96% were caused by that. Yes, I know what you are talking about, but I don't want to be aggressive. What we are trying to investigate here is true. 2600:1702:5225:C010:7882:7F46:BC0F:6466 (talk) 12:34, 28 March 2023 (UTC) Aiden was a trans man. Please change the pronouns in the article to he/him. Thanks. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Xenosystem (talk • contribs) 21:49, 27 March 2023 (UTC)

Should this be a part of "In The News"?

Since this is a recent mass shooting, should it be added in the "In The News" section of the Wikipedia front page?

Although I don't edit articles of this (I edit mainly Railroad articles as well as Train stations and creating Module:Adjacent stations templates, I feel like the need to help out. RobloxUser4125 (talk) 19:50, 27 March 2023 (UTC)

Absolutely you can help, but a section named "In The News" will not fit. 2600:1702:5225:C010:849D:F65B:75C4:FD21 (talk) 19:53, 27 March 2023 (UTC)

I mean in the main page of wikipedia not the article. RobloxUser4125 (talk) 19:55, 27 March 2023 (UTC)

@RobloxUser4125 if you feel it should be there, then nominate at WP:ITN/Candidates but I personally would vote no on including it. Philipnelson99 (talk) 20:07, 27 March 2023 (UTC)

Alr. RobloxUser4125 (talk) 20:08, 27 March 2023 (UTC)

Extended-confirmed-protected edit request on 27 March 2023

The shooter uses he/him pronouns and is a FtM transgender Source: https://archive.4plebs.org/pol/thread/421257761/#421257761 75.10.63.55 (talk) 20:51, 27 March 2023 (UTC)

Definitely not in a position to grant or refuse such an edit as an IP myself, but 4chan (or a 4chan clone?) is not a reliable source. The name has been confirmed by NBC News, but the shooter identifying as a trans man hasn't been confirmed yet. Unless reliable sources confirm the shooter's trans male identity, we should go with what the sources say. 2601:2C6:827F:7C50:CDE5:FEAD:C354:74E9 (talk) 20:58, 27 March 2023 (UTC)

 Not done: please provide reliable sources that support the change you want to be made. - 🔥𝑰𝒍𝒍𝒖𝒔𝒊𝒐𝒏 𝑭𝒍𝒂𝒎𝒆 (𝒕𝒂𝒍𝒌)🔥 20:59, 27 March 2023 (UTC)

By the way: That’s not a reliable source. - 🔥𝑰𝒍𝒍𝒖𝒔𝒊𝒐𝒏 𝑭𝒍𝒂𝒎𝒆 (𝒕𝒂𝒍𝒌)🔥 21:00, 27 March 2023 (UTC)

Who is Audrey Elizabeth Hale?

The suspect was identified as 28-year-old Audrey Hale (March 24, 1995 - March 27, 2023) of Nashville. Do we have any more information since we found at least 5% of her early life? 2600:1702:5225:C010:849D:F65B:75C4:FD21 (talk) 21:06, 27 March 2023 (UTC)

See the "White Woman" section down below for more information upon the life of Audrey Elizabeth Hale. The former comment was moved down to that section. 2600:1702:5225:C010:849D:F65B:75C4:FD21 (talk) 22:55, 27 March 2023 (UTC)

Extended-confirmed-protected edit request on 27 March 2023 (2)

I don’t see anywhere in the references where the shooter is transgender. Please correct this until verified reports confirm or deny this 2600:1700:B730:FB30:F09C:ACBC:3C66:7AD0 (talk) 22:37, 27 March 2023 (UTC)

Seconding this. I looked through the citations that followed each time this page claimed the shooter was trans, and none of them said any such thing. It should be removed until/unless it can be supported. Wehpudicabok (talk) 22:42, 27 March 2023 (UTC)

This is spreading misinformation and hate for no reason. Reads as 100% agenda. FrayedOne (talk) 22:53, 27 March 2023 (UTC)

Several reliable sources including The Guardian are reporting that the police chief stated the attacker was transgender. What is in question is their specific gender identity. (I am trans myself, for the record.) Funcrunch (talk) 22:56, 27 March 2023 (UTC)

So am I. Doesn't change the fact all this being relayed in article after article is based on heresay HERESAY from a line from police in Nashville. There's no factual basis behind it at all. It's a lie. FrayedOne (talk) 23:01, 27 March 2023 (UTC)

Tacky as fucking HELL this has turned into lies against the trans community. NO ONE has said this. You're promoting more hate crimes toward the trans community. You need to take this crap down. FrayedOne (talk) 22:51, 27 March 2023 (UTC)

 Not done The sources support the claim, I did modify the lead to make clear it was the police who claimed that. —Locke Cole • t • c 22:58, 27 March 2023 (UTC)

The sources are repeating heresay of a slur inclusive term that was quoted as having been said by a police officer in a notoriously anti-trans state. I wouldn't touch those sources with a 10 foot pole but apparently that's what Wikipedia does now. FrayedOne (talk) 23:02, 27 March 2023 (UTC)

reconaissance

reconaissance isn't a word, it should not be in the article.2604:3D09:C77:4E00:A0A3:1BD6:547F:3E3D (talk) 23:40, 27 March 2023 (UTC)

Fixed. Jennytacular (talk) 23:45, 27 March 2023 (UTC)

Extended-confirmed-protected edit request on 28 March 2023 (2)

Change "identified as transgender" to "identified as a transgender man." Joshuaalee59 (talk) 01:01, 28 March 2023 (UTC)

I see there is already a discussion on this and are waiting for more info at the moment. Feel free to disregard for the time-being. Joshuaalee59 (talk) 01:03, 28 March 2023 (UTC)

 Not done pending on-going discussion. DMacks (talk) 01:12, 28 March 2023 (UTC)

Extended-confirmed-protected edit request on 28 March 2023 (5)

Currently, under the Perpetrator section: "A neighbor said that Hale lived with his parents, describing Hale as "very nice" and "very religious.""

This implies the shooter was described as "very nice" and "very religious", when the source makes clear it was the parents of the shooter who were described that way: "A neighbor of the family told ABC News that Audrey Hale lived at the family's home with Hale's parents, who the neighbor described as "very nice" and "very religious.""

This should be changed to: "A neighbor said that Hale lived with his parents, describing his parents as "very nice" and "very religious."" 2600:1700:87D3:3460:7472:BF3A:464B:A1FE (talk) 03:24, 28 March 2023 (UTC)

I feel like the sentence should just be dropped altogether. Silverseren^C 03:31, 28 March 2023 (UTC)

 Removed. WWGB (talk) 03:44, 28 March 2023 (UTC)

(EC) At the least, the second half definitely should be. --Super Goku V (talk) 03:46, 28 March 2023 (UTC)

Extended-confirmed-protected edit request on 28 March 2023 (9)

Change all usage of the name "Audrey Hale" to "Aiden Hale." If deemed necessary for clarity mention that Aiden's birth name was Audrey where it is mentioned that he uses he/him/his pronouns. Derekeaaron1 (talk) 17:28, 28 March 2023 (UTC)

 Not done: please provide reliable sources that support the change you want to be made. Nythar (💬-🍀) 17:46, 28 March 2023 (UTC)

Extended-confirmed-protected edit request on 28 March 2023 (3)

Rather than lable the firearms as assault style rifle and assault style pistol it should be changed to the actual rifle or pistol used in the tragedy thats the problemwith todays society group labels rather than individually identifying them. Also that's not a mass shooting. 75.177.121.156 (talk) 05:19, 28 March 2023 (UTC)

 Not done: please provide reliable sources that support the change you want to be made. EvergreenFir (talk) 05:23, 28 March 2023 (UTC)

Lock this page

Transphobic 4chan hoaxers are already trying to blame random or even fictional trans women for this horrific act of violence, including using this horrible loss of life to defame somebody who got harassment forum KiwiFarms banned. 2601:2C6:827F:7C50:CDE5:FEAD:C354:74E9 (talk) 19:48, 27 March 2023 (UTC)

Yeah, but don't worry. They will be banned soon. 2600:1702:5225:C010:849D:F65B:75C4:FD21 (talk) 19:50, 27 March 2023 (UTC)

Page is now locked. Paris1127 (talk) 20:01, 27 March 2023 (UTC)

There are still people deleting the entire article with transphobic slurs. Esb5415 (talk) 20:08, 27 March 2023 (UTC)

My guess is that it is the same person, although I can't know this for sure. Regardless, that account has also been banned. 2601:2C6:827F:7C50:CDE5:FEAD:C354:74E9 (talk) 20:14, 27 March 2023 (UTC)

The fuck are you talking about? Nobody is saying anything. Jigbehigna (talk) 20:01, 27 March 2023 (UTC)

The edits have been removed, including an edit summary that used a transphobic slur. But trust me, people were vandalizing this article to attack trans women.

It is sad that people are so full of hate that this is how they react to innocent children and adults getting murdered. 2601:2C6:827F:7C50:CDE5:FEAD:C354:74E9 (talk) 20:04, 27 March 2023 (UTC)

this right here sums it up ^

its sad we have to dedicate part of the article to attacks on transgender people because of this murderer. The transgender community isn't like Hale and people should realize that. Melofy (talk) 19:58, 28 March 2023 (UTC)

Very sad. We should wait for the police to confirm the identity of the shooter. FaChol (talk) 20:17, 27 March 2023 (UTC)

Agreed with what you said (not your edit that contradicts the sentiment). It doesn't matter if the shooter is a cis woman, trans woman, a trans man, or whoever. The shooter is a monster who murdered innocent people. Regardless of the gender or other identity of the shooter, it is sick that people are using this to push agendas unrelated to the horrific act. 2601:2C6:827F:7C50:CDE5:FEAD:C354:74E9 (talk) 20:22, 27 March 2023 (UTC)

I made an edit where I wrote the name of the person I thought was the shooter, but I was too fast and didn’t know that this was effectively false. For that, I apologize. FaChol (talk) 20:27, 27 March 2023 (UTC)

We all make mistakes. Thank you for admitting your mistake and apologizing. 2601:2C6:827F:7C50:CDE5:FEAD:C354:74E9 (talk) 20:28, 27 March 2023 (UTC)

Yes, we should. Unlike what you did here. [1] Philipnelson99 (talk) 20:22, 27 March 2023 (UTC)

I know I was too fast. I effectively made a mistake and for that, I apologize. FaChol (talk) 20:33, 27 March 2023 (UTC)

Absolutely. We are going to find as much information on her as best as we can. 2600:1702:5225:C010:617B:C3FA:73D:BEF1 (talk) 20:24, 27 March 2023 (UTC)

I have only seen two reputable sources say the name of the alleged shooter, are we even entirely sure that's accurate? ABC says it came from 3 police officers, but the information is constantly changing. MerryButterfly (talk) 20:59, 27 March 2023 (UTC)

Should we unlock the page now since the suspect's name has been found or not yet? 2600:1702:5225:C010:849D:F65B:75C4:FD21 (talk) 21:10, 27 March 2023 (UTC)

Extended-confirmed-protected edit request on 27 March 2023 (3)

Under “perpetrator” heading, remove footnote 12 after “28-year-old resident of Nashville who police claim identified as transgender.[12]” This cites a Chattanooga Times Free Press article which does not include the information from that sentence anywhere. Likely a mistake as there is a second footnote immediately after it 104.55.45.57 (talk) 22:53, 27 March 2023 (UTC)

 Done.

Jennytacular (talk) 22:56, 27 March 2023 (UTC)

It's not a mistake, this a reoccurring thing that right-wing trolls do when these things happen. But yeah, there's no proof that the perpetrator is trans at all, nor has it been stated ANYWHERE but here. RavenousScrivener (talk) 22:58, 27 March 2023 (UTC)

The fact that this article went up so fast and was SO QUICK to call them Trans, all of which appears to be based on heresay and slur which has then been repeated and perpetuated throughout multiple articles is EXACTLY why these articles should not go up until all of the facts actually exist. I'm usually a supporter of Wikipedia but this is terrible. The whole thing should come down until the FACTS are known. Period. This is perpetuating a cycle of hate and violence that is already getting people killed. Y'all should be ashamed. FrayedOne (talk) 23:00, 27 March 2023 (UTC)

The sources state that she is transgender, but the article makes no claim to hatred against the perpetrator for that fact, so I don't know what you're referring to. If you're referring to previous revisions by trolls spamming a hoax, that appeared to be from 4chan and not actual Wikipedia editors. It was vandalism and was quickly removed. Jennytacular (talk) 23:04, 27 March 2023 (UTC)

Speaking as a transmasculine person, as I stated earlier I think it's quite plausible that the police initially misidentified a young trans man as a female teenager. I am very alert to transphobia on Wikipedia and in the media, but I do not believe that the identification of this shooter as transgender is a slur in this case. It's the shooter's specific gender identity that is still in question. Funcrunch (talk) 23:04, 27 March 2023 (UTC)

Several reputable sources refer to the shooter as a transgender woman. Regardless, the current language (not using any pronouns at all in reference to the shooter) is probably the best option for now. --Rockstone^{Send me a message!} 23:38, 27 March 2023 (UTC)

Extended-confirmed-protected edit request on 28 March 2023 (8)

Change any she/her/hers pronouns referring to Audrey Hale to he/him/his pronouns, Chane terms "masculine pronouns" and "male pronouns" to "he/him/his pronouns." Derekeaaron1 (talk) 17:22, 28 March 2023 (UTC)

 Not done for now: Please see above sections about perpetrators pronouns. A09 (talk) 18:24, 28 March 2023 (UTC)

Extended-confirmed-protected edit request on 28 March 2023 (7)

The "Shooting" section misgenders the shooter as "she." I suggest editing "she" to "he." 50.53.45.16 (talk) 16:35, 28 March 2023 (UTC)

 Not done for now: Please see above discussions about her pronouns. A09 (talk) 18:25, 28 March 2023 (UTC)

Er, it was done, so not sure what you're thinking of. 2600:1700:87D3:3460:E07E:FFB:80F2:8234 (talk) 18:42, 28 March 2023 (UTC)

Extended-confirmed-protected edit request on 28 March 2023 (2)

They shot through a side door to gain entry into the building Ninja2020 (talk) 19:12, 28 March 2023 (UTC)

 Not done: please provide reliable sources that support the change you want to be made. Chess (talk) (please use {{reply to|Chess}} on reply) 19:18, 28 March 2023 (UTC)

Remove Newsweek Article Source

The Newsweek article source 28 should be removed as a source for the identification of the shooter. I think sources 27 and 29 should be enough but if not there are countless other sources that can be used at this point. I don't think an article that is principally about the effect of hormones on the brain should be used as a source for the shooter's identification, even if it does technically provide that information. GBRSean (talk) 20:32, 28 March 2023 (UTC)

I agree. I have removed the Newsweek source because, as you said, it isn't needed, and Newsweek is considered a questionable source. Silent-Rains (talk) 20:38, 28 March 2023 (UTC)

Extended-confirmed-protected edit request on 28 March 2023 (3)

I believe that the shooter should be identified as a she considering she was born a female and is a complete monster not worthy of respect or decency. Jellyybean (talk) 20:50, 28 March 2023 (UTC)

 Not done: That's not how we normally do things around here. Nythar (💬-🍀) 20:52, 28 March 2023 (UTC)

Gendered Pronouns

The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

---

There seems to be confusion and/or malice in the article with regard to gendered language. I believe some people genuinely do not know the attacker's gender identity, and some are intentionally and maliciously misgendering. Not that a killer deserves an ounce of respect, of course, but the killer is not around to hear such insults, only readers who are trans get to witness such attacks against an identity group rather than the vile character of that individual's actions. Honestly, I don't know their gender identity either. I would like to recommend using the gender-neutral pronouns "they/them" to identify the attacker until such clarity can be had.

Personally, I don't think attackers should be named or identified at all. I know that's going to be an uphill battle on an encyclopedia, but I favor erasing completely the names, identity, opinions, everything, of such attackers from public discourse, outside of any relevant discussion that might lead to social consensus on how to prevent further such attacks. I don't think it is "Neutral" to publish the names of attackers and thus contribute to their glorification/martyrdom in such a way. I personally think they should only ever be identified as "the attacker" and "they/them" and never by name. But that of course does not mean that transphobic language is ever acceptable. HeroofTime55 (talk) 21:03, 28 March 2023 (UTC)

Encyclopedias are supposed to provide relevant information on specific topics. The suspect is a relevant part of any article about an attack. When a person heads off to an encyclopedia for information about an attack, they probably won't be disappointed when they encounter information that's entirely relevant. — Nythar (💬-🍀) 21:09, 28 March 2023 (UTC)

There is increasingly clarity from a majority of reliable sources that the shooter used he/him. I understand your reasoning, but as an encyclopedia, we do not misgender people nor erase their names from history as retribution for their actions. 2600:1700:87D3:3460:E07E:FFB:80F2:8234 (talk) 21:21, 28 March 2023 (UTC)

The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

Vehicle

Before Audrey's name was released to the public, authorities found her name possibly from the car she drove on her way to the school. What car did she drive at the time of the shooting? 2600:1702:5225:C010:617B:C3FA:73D:BEF1 (talk) 21:38, 27 March 2023 (UTC)

I don't see how the car make and model is particularly relevant to this event. Michael60634 (talk) 00:19, 28 March 2023 (UTC)

It looks like a gray Honda Fit, thanks to newly-released surveillance video. 108.207.107.176 (talk) 12:22, 28 March 2023 (UTC)

It appears to be a minivan if that is of any interest to you. From the police twitter:

https://twitter.com/MNPDNashville/status/1640506268065431552 Jennytacular (talk) 01:55, 28 March 2023 (UTC)

Incorrect. Justanother2 (talk) 12:14, 28 March 2023 (UTC)

Its a gray Honda Fit. There is newly-released video from outside. 2600:1702:5225:C010:7882:7F46:BC0F:6466 (talk) 12:43, 28 March 2023 (UTC)

Extended-confirmed-protected edit request on 28 March 2023 (2)

Minor spelling change. Section: "Around perpetrator's identity" Change "Rep Marjorie Taylor-Green" to "Rep Marjorie Taylor-Greene" Aeasala (talk) 23:00, 28 March 2023 (UTC)

 Done Nythar (💬-🍀) 23:19, 28 March 2023 (UTC)

Response section

So I was editing the page earlier, left and came back to what looks like vandalizing attacks - but the response section is also gone. Is that due to something else or due to the constant reverting due to the vandalizing? Leaky.Solar (talk) 20:10, 27 March 2023 (UTC)

Someone reverted it accidentally I believe. Philipnelson99 (talk) 20:16, 27 March 2023 (UTC)

Based on a glance, I believe what happened was that an edit at 21:01 changed the number of sections in the page, then an edit at 21:02 tried to remove a paragraph from the Perpetrator section and instead replaced the Reactions section with a duplicate Perpetrator section. The duplicate got removed, but the section was not restored prior to the next set of vandalism. --Super Goku V (talk) 20:57, 27 March 2023 (UTC)

Adding redirects

• 2023 Nashville school shooting
• Nashville school shooting
• School shooting Nashville

I am adding the following redirects - Any concerns about these needing to be done as disambig pages or something if there are other similarly namable incidents, let's discuss. Thanks KConWiki (talk) 17:31, 27 March 2023 (UTC)

I think the first one on top is the best option. 2600:1702:5225:C010:617B:C3FA:73D:BEF1 (talk) 17:37, 27 March 2023 (UTC)

IMO last one is the worst as you have probably some amount of shootings in Nashville. I suggest moving to first redirect given. A09 (talk) 18:03, 27 March 2023 (UTC)

Comment: At this time, I am not proposing changing the name of the article, which is "Covenant School shooting" - What my intention was was to create redirects that would point users looking for information on this event to this article. If there is discussion that emerges about changing the article name, then that can occur as appropriate. KConWiki (talk) 18:13, 27 March 2023 (UTC)

Or maybe you can name it "2023 Nashville Covenant School shooting" or something like that, that will be another option. 2600:1702:5225:C010:617B:C3FA:73D:BEF1 (talk) 20:29, 27 March 2023 (UTC)

FTM or MTF

Are they ftm or mtf? I am seeing conflicting reports about this. Could the article reflect this. 2601:184:4601:5180:38CF:1E3A:D218:BEED (talk) 22:53, 27 March 2023 (UTC)

There are no reports on this. No legitimate sourcing is saying ANYTHING about them being Trans. Period. FrayedOne (talk) 22:54, 27 March 2023 (UTC)

There are some articles reporting the shooter is trans; however, all of these appear to be based on police officers' testimony, and I don't think the article should reflect what they say until it's been independently confirmed, particularly when it comes to a shooter being trans. The same thing was said of the Uvalde shooter, but that turned out to be a 4chan lie, one that actually got a completely unrelated trans woman beaten up because of it. Wehpudicabok (talk) 22:57, 27 March 2023 (UTC)

This. FrayedOne (talk) 23:03, 27 March 2023 (UTC)

Was it really necessary to waste a comment just to show your agreement with the comment? We are not on social media. IMakeSuggestionsInTheTalkPage (talk) 04:14, 28 March 2023 (UTC)

I don't think the situation is particularly comparable to Robb Elementary School shooting at least when you posted. It's true that initially there was stuff coming out of trolls on 4chan, Kiwifarms etc, at least some of which was false (e.g. the Samantha stuff) which may be comparable to that case. Some of that crap may have made it into crappy sources. But I checked this page just before 2200 UTC (when the talk page was this [2]) after the police had made their confusing claims about the shooter being transgender in an official press conference which was before your comment and I'm pretty sure those claims in the official press conference were why the article was updated, not stuff eminating from trolls.

AFAIK, noting comparable happened in Robb. Some sources may have repeated baseless rumours from 4chan, Kiwifarms etc about the identity of the shooter; some politicians and other crazy politicians did as well. Perhaps even some police officers did in alleged 'off the record'/anonymous comments. But I don't think the police ever repeated baseless claims about the identity of the shooter in the Robb case.

The latest information suggests that this didn't really happen here either, although they did use terminology which was wrong or confusing which may have lead to inaccurate reports. (What they said lead many to think the shooter was a trans woman AMAB when it appears the shooter may have been a trans man AFAB.) While this is unfortunate to say the least, I don't think it's particularly comparable.

We do have to be careful about stuff in sources that originates from stuff police say even at official press conferences, it's a different thing from random rumours and misinformation like what happened in the Robb case. Notably the press conference was quite a while after the situation had been resolved and when there was no active threat, when there's an active threat tends to be when there is greater urgency so police may release information that turns out to be misleading or untrue.

Also however common transphobia may be in that state police saying misleading or untrue things tends to be a biggest problem not in such matters but when talking about their responses or the actions of someone they did something to, rather than misleading on untrue information on someone's identity. Transphobia etc among police tends to manifest in derogatory language or offensive or confusing terminology rather than repeating untrue information originating from trolls at major press conferences.

Nil Einne (talk) 07:30, 28 March 2023 (UTC)

"The shooter was 28-year-old Audrey Hale, who police said identified as transgender". [3]. See also here: [4] It is of course possible that this is incorrect, but we do have sources. AndyTheGrump (talk) 22:58, 27 March 2023 (UTC)

I'm not a terribly frequent editor, so please pardon my ignorance, but is it really Wikipedia policy to take cops' word on current events as fact? At the very least, we should add a qualifier like "police allege." Wehpudicabok (talk) 23:01, 27 March 2023 (UTC)

Er, never mind me, it seems that those qualifiers have been added while I've been on this page. Wehpudicabok (talk) 23:02, 27 March 2023 (UTC)

A speaker of the police said himself, when asked "Did she identify as a transgender man or women?" to which he replied "woman". IMakeSuggestionsInTheTalkPage (talk) 04:13, 28 March 2023 (UTC)

I saw that too, but based on all the other sources identifying the perp as female-to-male, I am thinking that the police rep. may have misunderstood the meaning of "transgender woman", assuming that the "woman" referred to the originating gender/sex, not the one transitioned to. But it does add more confusion to the mix.— Crumpled Fire • contribs • 04:18, 28 March 2023 (UTC)

Yeah, I think the better sources identified this quite quickly. I was watching something on Twitch which while not an RS, identified very quickly after the PC that it was likely the person had just used confusing information as LinkedIn (and maybe other social media) profiles had been spreading by then. Nil Einne (talk) 07:32, 28 March 2023 (UTC)

More interesting information

The incident was planned and another location was considered as a target: https://www.independent.co.uk/news/world/americas/crime/audrey-hale-nashville-school-shooting-b2309043.html Jennytacular (talk) 22:19, 27 March 2023 (UTC)

Transgender

The shooter was transgender. MUST be included in intro 47.200.110.84 (talk) 00:12, 28 March 2023 (UTC)

A sourced police statement that the shooter was transgender is already in the article. It doesn't need to be in the lead. Funcrunch (talk) 00:16, 28 March 2023 (UTC)

Why exactly do you feel this is necessary to include in the lead? Your emphasis on "must" makes me think your intentions are less than good. If I'm wrong about that, then please to say so and give a good reason as to why. Michael60634 (talk) 00:17, 28 March 2023 (UTC)

Just pretend the shooter wasn’t trans but part of white supremacy. Just write the article that way. This was a HATE crime. The school was targeted best it was Christian (where the shooter went). Are you trying to cover up a hate crime? If I’m wrong just please say so and give a good reason why. 47.200.110.84 (talk) 00:32, 28 March 2023 (UTC)

There is, as of present writing, no reliable sources are stating this was a hate crime in any capacity that I can find. If you have any sort of source to back this up, please provide it. Thank you. Planetberaure (talk) 00:37, 28 March 2023 (UTC)

Seeing that I'm now being accused of "trying to cover up a hate crime", and that they are claiming Wikipedia is "biased" on their talk page, I don't think they're the type of person that can be bothered to find any reliable sources. With that said, I'd love to be proven wrong. Michael60634 (talk) 00:43, 28 March 2023 (UTC)

My pronouns are he him 47.200.110.84 (talk) 00:44, 28 March 2023 (UTC)

Noted. michael60634 / talk / contributions 01:41, 28 March 2023 (UTC)

I am personally operating under WP:AFG and would be remissed to not give an opportunity to provide a source from the user in question, although I get where you are coming from. Planetberaure (talk) 01:11, 28 March 2023 (UTC)

I was operating under WP:AGF, with a degree of skepticism, until I was accused of trying to cover up a hate crime. I am absolutely giving the editor an opportunity to provide reliable sources. If it was indeed a hate crime and this is confirmed by reliable sources, so be it. I am not going to try to argue about that or "cover it up", as this editor has claimed. I can see how this event can be assumed to be a hate crime, but Wikipedia isn't the place for speculation. michael60634 / talk / contributions 01:46, 28 March 2023 (UTC)

True no media has reported that is a hate crime, yet. But NBC reports that resentment might have played a role in the shooting. 47.200.110.84 (talk) 00:43, 28 March 2023 (UTC)

That is currently idle speculation with no factual backing by reliable sources. Should law enforcement release information and deem it a hate crime the article certainly will be updated accordingly at that time. Wikipedia isn't in the business of adding speculation unless that speculation is later relevant to the subject at hand. Planetberaure (talk) 01:08, 28 March 2023 (UTC)

The shooter went by Aiden

https://www.news.com.au/world/north-america/everything-we-know-about-nashville-school-shooter-audrey-hale/news-story/c59bae2f1df43c79ca72daadf9a5e6cc

"Hale, who had also started to go by the name Aiden" Tdmurlock (talk) 02:58, 28 March 2023 (UTC)

Finally, one source says it. Still, I’m not sure it’s enough. We have nearly 30 sources that say Audrey. Snowmanonahoe (talk) 03:00, 28 March 2023 (UTC)

Also, a cursory look at news.com.au doesn’t make it appear very reliable. Snowmanonahoe (talk) 03:08, 28 March 2023 (UTC)

I found another sources:

https://nypost.com/2023/03/27/at-least-3-killed-gunman-dead-in-nashville-school-shooting-reports/

https://nypost.com/2023/03/27/nashville-school-shooter-idd-as-audrey-hale/ Gay.cat.dad (talk) 03:16, 28 March 2023 (UTC)

"There is consensus that the New York Post is generally unreliable for factual reporting". WWGB (talk) 03:19, 28 March 2023 (UTC)

What about this?

https://heavy.com/news/audrey-hale-video-photos-aiden/ Gay.cat.dad (talk) 04:52, 28 March 2023 (UTC)

Disagree - it's a major news site in Australia. What a makes it seem unreliable to you? Gay.cat.dad (talk) 04:55, 28 March 2023 (UTC)

Addressed both Heavy.com and News.com.au in the section below this. 2600:1700:87D3:3460:7472:BF3A:464B:A1FE (talk) 06:05, 28 March 2023 (UTC)

Propaganda not Relevant Content

Now off-topic, straying into WP:GENSEX issues
The following discussion has been closed. Please do not modify it.
Why is this article using trans terminology? The phrase "assigned female at birth" as per the Perpetrator section is nakedly partisan, non-factual, and irrelevant to this piece. As such it's entirely inappropriate. The shooter was a woman who was born female - not something that should need explaining, who lived at home with her parents, but tried to present herself as masculine whilst out of her parents' house. 2001:44B8:2104:4600:590D:6BC0:543D:DF08 (talk) 07:55, 29 March 2023 (UTC) Based on this person's several transphobic posts here, I believe someone should break out the hammer. 2600:1700:87D3:3460:E07E:FFB:80F2:8234 (talk) 07:56, 29 March 2023 (UTC) pipe down IP Becausewhynothuh? (talk) 08:04, 29 March 2023 (UTC) IP editors are just as legitimate as editors with accounts — please remain civil and refrain from personal attacks. 2600:1700:87D3:3460:E07E:FFB:80F2:8234 (talk) 08:11, 29 March 2023 (UTC) your first edit was less than a day ago. and you've been constantly using inflammatory language as well as terms that seek to shut down all dialogue. do yourself a favour and stop blabbering about if you don't have the decency to reply to actual queries in a sane manner Becausewhynothuh? (talk) 08:16, 29 March 2023 (UTC) I have a dynamic IP that changes every day; feel free to check my /64 for a wider array of my contributions. I've responded to all queries in a levelheaded manner, but this will be the last I engage with you, given that I feel you're not here to build an encyclopedia. 2600:1700:87D3:3460:E07E:FFB:80F2:8234 (talk) 08:20, 29 March 2023 (UTC) you're literally accusing people you know nothing about of 'transphobia'. you accused me of not wanting to build an encyclopedia after exactly 1 message....you realise you're the problem here right? you've been arguing with several people, I've not. Becausewhynothuh? (talk) 08:25, 29 March 2023 (UTC) eh, it's kinda customary to just listen to whatever the person claims to be and it's established habit on wikipedia by now so I'm afraid this is not a plausible suggestion Becausewhynothuh? (talk) 08:06, 29 March 2023 (UTC) It's established policy, regardless of your transphobic dogwhistles. 2600:1700:87D3:3460:E07E:FFB:80F2:8234 (talk) 08:12, 29 March 2023 (UTC) 🤦🏻‍♂️ if you opened your eyes a little and used your brain you'd see that I literally acknowledged 'established habit'. 'transphobic dogwhistles' I'm sorry, but do you really think that means anything to 95% of people? get out of the basement ffs, stop using Thought-terminating clichés, and try engage in a civil manner. Becausewhynothuh? (talk) 08:24, 29 March 2023 (UTC) I wasn't aware Wikipedia had opted out on the science and bought into propaganda. I don't tend to rely on Wikipedia too heavily because of its questionable reliability. Presumably I'm wasting my time when pointing out inconvenient facts is deemed dogwhistling transphobia. And sorry Special:Contributions/2600:1700:87D3:3460:E07E:FFB:80F2:8234 but while you may support trans stuff, even side with those who hold failure to use trans pronouns is offensive or demand the mangling of the English language e.g. use of plurals for individuals, I side with those who hold that those ignoring the atrocity and complaining she is being misgendered when referred to by her real\biological gender are being offensive. If that's transphobic, well I guess reality is transphobic and that's my cue to bow out. 2001:44B8:2104:4600:590D:6BC0:543D:DF08 (talk) 08:37, 29 March 2023 (UTC) 👏🏻 Becausewhynothuh? (talk) 08:41, 29 March 2023 (UTC) "while you may support trans stuff" — I am indeed trans, so, guilty as charged. I agree that Wikipedia probably isn't the place for you, and I bid you good tidings. 2600:1700:87D3:3460:E07E:FFB:80F2:8234 (talk) 08:43, 29 March 2023 (UTC) stay safe man, I wish you well in life. don't do something stupid 👊🏻 Becausewhynothuh? (talk) 08:46, 29 March 2023 (UTC)

Can someone fix this; irritating minor grammar issue

"Five Metro Nashville Police officers went upstairs and encountered him, who"

This isn't about gender or pronouns just bad sentence structure. I would suggest in lieu of "him" either "the shooter" or " Hale". That would fix the bad structure and dodge any pronoun issues serendipitously. FranMichael (talk)FranMichael FranMichael (talk) 04:50, 29 March 2023 (UTC)

How about this? InedibleHulk (talk) 05:05, 29 March 2023 (UTC)

I am not going to wade into the pronouns issue; your edit would fix the grammar issue. FranMichael (talk) 05:09, 29 March 2023 (UTC)

I left the pronoun alone, that time. I called Joe Biden a "he" on the "half-staff" issue later. Not sure if that should be "halfstaff". InedibleHulk (talk) 05:34, 29 March 2023 (UTC)

"White woman"

The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

---

The sources currently given, although they state that the shooter was white and identified as transgender, are unclear on the gender identity of the shooter- in particular, NY Post claims that "A Linkedin profile listed Audrey Hale as an Illustrator and graphic designer, with pronouns listed as he/him." Other outlets are contradictory on their identity and what pronouns to refer to them. Although I'm pretty sure they were a transgender man (FTM) and therefore not a woman, I updated the article to be gender neutral until this can be confirmed.

https://nypost.com/2023/03/27/nashville-school-shooter-idd-as-audrey-hale/ HadesTTW (he/him • talk) 22:00, 27 March 2023 (UTC)

The Guardian article on the shooting also removed the she/her pronouns after updating to say that the police chief identified the shooter as transgender. As a transmasculine person myself, it does make sense to me that they could initially misread a 28-year-old trans man as a teenage woman. Funcrunch (talk) 22:30, 27 March 2023 (UTC)

I found evidence that Audrey's full name is Audrey Elizabeth Hale. It was also possible that she lived in Nashville throughout her own life but I'm pretty not sure yet. A few sites say that she is a former illustrator, graphic designer, and a former art student at Nossi College of Art in Nashville, and she was honored as the "most improved" student at the school in 2015. It also says that she has previously worked as a freelance graphic designer, a grocery shopper for Shipt, and also at one time a children's book author about a support dog named Millie. She has no criminal history at all.

Down below, there was evidence about Hale's mother.

Shortly right after Parkland occurred in February 2018, Hale's mother shared a link to the Sandy Hook Promise petition to “make large-capacity gun magazines illegal,” without any additional comment. One month later, she shared another link to the Sandy Hook Promise petition to “keep guns out of schools,” and wrote in the caption on the post “So important!” However, one year later on an unknown date in 2019, she shared a photo of a drawing that said “I (heart) God,” and wrote in the caption saying: “Found this in a devotional book I loaned to Audrey.”

A former neighbor responded to The Daily Beast: “If I had to imagine, Audrey’s parents are probably just as shocked as everybody in the neighborhood is…It just doesn’t seem real.” “There’s nothing that would have led me to believe that she was capable of such a thing or that she or anybody in that family would have access to, much less ever used, a gun. They just don’t seem like the family that, like, is around guns. They’re not talking about going to a gun range or they’re not going hunting.”

The reaction from Hale's parents after her death by officers was unreported yet.

2600:1702:5225:C010:849D:F65B:75C4:FD21 (talk) 22:49, 27 March 2023 (UTC)

Audrey was born on March 24, 1995 in Nashville, she died three days after her 28th birthday. 2600:1702:5225:C010:7882:7F46:BC0F:6466 (talk) 12:25, 28 March 2023 (UTC)

References

Why mention a person's race at all? We don't need to copy 100% of the syntax of reliable sources. Should we also mention the hair color or size of the clothes the person wore? If we do duplicate race remarks from RS should we retroactively amend all of Wikipedia to insert what race everyone throughout history was as well?

This obsession with people's races borders on Nazi eugenics and has no place in an encyclopedia. The rest of the world does not suffer the pedantic obsession the US does over what race everyone is, and it is becoming offensive (and rather old-fashioned and repulsive) to international readers of Wikipedia to see people's titles starting with what their race is. 85.148.213.144 (talk) 00:24, 28 March 2023 (UTC)

I too wish for the idealistic goal that "race", which is an unscientific notion and a social construct, should just fade away. But this is not "Idealisticpedia" where we ignore the realities of social problems. Race is important and widely discussed in the United States just as caste is important and widely discussed in India, no matter how much you may dislike it. Cullen328 (talk) 01:04, 28 March 2023 (UTC)

Genetic differences between humans, like skin color, are obviously not a social construct. There is also an obvious difference in meaning between castes in India (which are a social construct) and human skin color (which isn't). Neither attributes of a subject deserve mention in an encyclopedia unless pertinent to the article itself. Do you not see that arbitrarily mentioning someone's skin color (or caste, political affiliation, sexual preference, position on taxation, opinion on abortions, etc) does nothing else than polarise the population? Your mindset is exactly what perpetuates these old-fashioned segregating prejudices in the US and countries like India, which Europe has moved beyond. Keeping on rubbing people's faces in skin colors is what perpetuates prejudice and hatred among the ignorant. 85.148.213.144 (talk) 01:52, 28 March 2023 (UTC)

Where we draw the lines between one race and another are indeed social constructs. 75.100.176.65 (talk) 04:40, 28 March 2023 (UTC)

FYI, skin color in some regions (e.g. much of Brazil) is not highly correlated with genetic ancestry, and in other places and situations (e.g. India, vitiligo, albinism) may not indicate genetic ancestry because of a biological or physical modification; but this is less relevant than the points above ("race" as a division is indeed a social construct, and it is highly socially relevant in the States). TricksterWolf (talk) 20:03, 28 March 2023 (UTC)

The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

Extended-confirmed-protected edit request on 28 March 2023

Requesting permission to add additions onto Reactions, specifically I plan to use note President Biden's request for more gun control laws, as well as arguing between the TN Democrats and Republicans on gun control laws in response to the shooting, sources are as well as and finally Sunnyediting99 (talk) 00:39, 28 March 2023 (UTC)

You must provide a complete and specific description of the request, that is, specify what text should be removed and a verbatim copy of the text that should replace it in order for your request to be considered. Cullen328 (talk) 00:48, 28 March 2023 (UTC)

After President Biden's comments, requesting this be included (Karine Jean-Pierre was at the same press conference as Biden):

White House press secretary Karine Jean-Pierre condemned the shooting, stating “Schools should be safe spaces for kids to grow and learn and for our educators to teach." Additionally, Jean-Pierre called for Congress to "step up and act" by passing an assault weapons ban and closing loopholes in background check systems.

After Rep. Greene's statement, requesting that this be included in a seperate paragraph:

Both chambers of the Tennessee General Assembly paused legislative debate and held a moment of prayer in honor of the victims. Tennessee Democratic legislators criticized their Republican counterparts for quickly adjourning the session without allowing debate and called for legislative action on gun reform. Sunnyediting99 (talk) 01:31, 28 March 2023 (UTC)

@Sunnyediting99, New York Post is not a reliable source per WP:RSP. Please find an alternative source. Thanks! EpicPupper (talk) 01:36, 28 March 2023 (UTC)

@EricPupper thank you, perhaps could this work? Sunnyediting99 (talk) 02:00, 28 March 2023 (UTC)

EpicPupper That looks good to me, what do you think? Actualcpscm (talk) 10:16, 28 March 2023 (UTC)

References

 Note: Closing due to ongoing discussion, feel free to re-open once resolved. Actualcpscm (talk) 10:23, 28 March 2023 (UTC)

Extended-confirmed-protected edit request on 28 March 2023 (4)

Change:

The shooter was identified as Audrey Elizabeth Hale,[21] a 28-year-old resident of Nashville who police say identified as transgender.[1][12]

to:

The shooter was identified as Aiden or Audrey Elizabeth Hale,[21][29] a 28-year-old resident of Nashville who police say identified as transgender.[1][12]

Reference 29 is:

Report, P. S. (2023, March 28). At least 7 dead, including 3 kids, after transgender shooter opens fire at Nashville Christian elementary school. New York Post. https://nypost.com/2023/03/27/at-least-3-killed-gunman-dead-in-nashville-school-shooting-reports/ Gay.cat.dad (talk) 03:10, 28 March 2023 (UTC)

Not a reliable source — WP:NYPOST. 2600:1700:87D3:3460:7472:BF3A:464B:A1FE (talk) 03:12, 28 March 2023 (UTC)

(I agree with making the change, but the closest thing to a reliable source I've found thus far is the fact that "Aiden" is written on the gun in the images posted by the police department. But that specific detail hasn't been noted by a reliable source yet.) 2600:1700:87D3:3460:7472:BF3A:464B:A1FE (talk) 03:14, 28 March 2023 (UTC)

The LinkedIn profile also used the name "Audrey" though, even with "(He/Him)" showing in brackets right next to the name Audrey.— Crumpled Fire • contribs • 03:26, 28 March 2023 (UTC)

Speaking as a trans person, it's very common to go through a phase of using new pronouns without having chosen a name yet. The fact that there's several other social media accounts (TikTok and Facebook) with the name "Aiden" indicates to me that he probably hadn't gotten around to updating LinkedIn with it yet. 2600:1700:87D3:3460:7472:BF3A:464B:A1FE (talk) 03:37, 28 March 2023 (UTC)

See above - I got heavy.com and news.com.au as sources. Shouldn't this be enough? Gay.cat.dad (talk) 04:57, 28 March 2023 (UTC)

Heavy.com: "There is consensus that Heavy.com should not be relied upon for any serious or contentious statements."

News.com.au is predominately an aggregator of content from other News Corp Australia sites, which are generally all unreliable. Its sister paper is The Daily Telegraph (Sydney), whose article has a long section specifically about its unreliable and often prejudiced reporting on LGBTQ individuals... so I would be inclined to consider any original reporting from News.com.au to be unreliable as well. 2600:1700:87D3:3460:7472:BF3A:464B:A1FE (talk) 06:02, 28 March 2023 (UTC)

When using news aggregators, the key is to actually work out where the story comes from. For example if it was The Australian then this is an RS. Many aggregators do this. For example Yahoo and MSN publish a lot of crap from unreliable sources but also post stuff from RS. It's the reliability of the original source that matters. Arguably it's better to link to the original source but in certain cases especially with paywalls, people do link to the aggregator. Nil Einne (talk) 07:37, 28 March 2023 (UTC)

Yep — the News.com.au source mentioned here (linked in the section above) isn't aggregated but written by a staff writer, which is why I also mentioned why their original reporting is likely unreliable too! SIGH. Has their logo by the byline, but of course, buried at the end is "with the New York Post". And sure enough, it's an exact copy of the NY Post's article. I tire of the aggregation era. 2600:1700:87D3:3460:7472:BF3A:464B:A1FE (talk) 07:38, 28 March 2023 (UTC) 2600:1700:87D3:3460:7472:BF3A:464B:A1FE (talk) 07:42, 28 March 2023 (UTC)

Another probably-not-reliable-enough source reporting it: "One of the guns can be seen with the name Aiden on it, which was a name Hale used on some social media profiles seen by The Daily Beast." 2600:1700:87D3:3460:7472:BF3A:464B:A1FE (talk) 06:39, 28 March 2023 (UTC)

Well, apparently this source is being used to insert the claim "A person close to Hale's family stated that Hale was autistic." (which should really be "A person who claimed to be close to", but I lack the energy to make a protected edit request for that right now) — so who knows, maybe it's now considered reliable enough to add the name Aiden? 2600:1700:87D3:3460:7472:BF3A:464B:A1FE (talk) 06:56, 28 March 2023 (UTC)

They pick and choose when to be vigilant about sources that's for damn sure. Gay.cat.dad (talk) 07:07, 28 March 2023 (UTC)

This source has also just been added, which features a screenshot of the name on the shooter's Facebook being "Aiden", and that same name included by him in one of the messages he (ostensibly) sent. Is this combined with The Daily Beast enough to add the name?

And if The Daily Beast is considered unreliable for the name claim, then shouldn't the autism claim be removed as well? (If not and it's kept in, it should really be qualified with "A person who claimed to be close to".) 2600:1700:87D3:3460:7472:BF3A:464B:A1FE (talk) 07:34, 28 March 2023 (UTC)

Can I propose this wording be added somewhere.

"Audrey Hale also went by Aiden, according to some sources." Gay.cat.dad (talk) 07:53, 28 March 2023 (UTC)

 Not done for now: The Perpetrator subsection seems to summarise what is currently known quite well, and since the sourcing for "Aiden" is sparse, I'm unsure what the necessity of this edit is. Feel free to re-open when the sourcing situation is sorted out and there is agreement on what to do with this, as per WP:consensus. Actualcpscm (talk) 10:34, 28 March 2023 (UTC)

Footage released

They were heavily armed. Could it be added to the page somewhere, maybe as an external link? No violence in the video. https://twitter.com/MNPDNashville/status/1640545519511404546 2601:2C6:4700:5300:7D28:D9B3:A7E9:34D7 (talk) 03:11, 28 March 2023 (UTC)

We cannot use that video unless you can provide evidence that it is in the public domain or has been freely licensed in a manner acceptable for Wikipedia. Lacking such evidence, the video must be assumed to be restricted by copyright. Cullen328 (talk) 03:22, 28 March 2023 (UTC)

It could be added as an external video using {{external media}}. I can't add it since I'm at school and the wifi in my district has a firewall that blocks pretty much all major social media sites, but can some else do that? - Knightsoftheswords281 i.e Crusader1096 ( Talk Contribs Wikis ) 14:29, 28 March 2023 (UTC)

Well, since no one has added it, I will. - Knightsoftheswords281 i.e Crusader1096 ( Talk Contribs Wikis ) 01:13, 29 March 2023 (UTC)

Additional information on Joe Biden's response

"President Joe Biden spoke about the shooting at a press conference, calling it "sick," and urged Congress to take further action on gun safety legislation."

That wasn't what he started the conference with. Reporters had to actually ask him questions about it to get a response. Before, he talked about chocolate chip ice cream.[5] Please add this to the page. 98.20.130.103 (talk) 12:15, 28 March 2023 (UTC)

Under Wikipedia:NYPOST, the New York Post is not a reliable source and should not avoided in articles. What happens around a statement is generally irrelevant unless brought up in multiple reliable sources; the statement itself is what matters. Couruu (talk) 16:12, 28 March 2023 (UTC)

Hale's name

Its mentioned that s/he was a trans-man, but that their name was "Audrey". Did they use a male name? (is it in their social media?) That would be good to add to the article if that's also the case, and not just the birth name or legal name. As for the name on the gun mentioned above... that could just be the name of the gun, as some people do name their guns. -- 65.92.244.249 (talk) 12:54, 28 March 2023 (UTC)

It's said above that it's Aiden although I have not looked at the sources. Nil Einne (talk) 13:22, 28 March 2023 (UTC)

Extended-confirmed-protected edit request on 28 March 2023 (6)

The shooter is referred to as “he”. The shooter is Female. You should change He to she 174.247.236.160 (talk) 13:36, 28 March 2023 (UTC)

 Not done: Hale was a trans man who used male pronouns. M.Bitton (talk) 14:37, 28 March 2023 (UTC)

Extended-confirmed-protected edit request on 28 March 2023 (5)

Change the following lines from:

".....side door to gain entry into the building,[13][14] armed with an assault-style rifle, an pistol-caliber carbine, and a handgun.[15][16][14] Hale..."

to: ".....side door to gain entry into the building,[13][14] armed with a semi-automatic AR-15-style rifle, a pistol-caliber carbine, and a handgun.[15][16][14] Hale..."

Reason: "semi-automatic" is the common description given to the AR-15 style rifle on its main page https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/AR-15_style_rifle

Reason: "pistol-caliber carbine" is the common description given to the Kel-Tec SUB-2000 on its main page https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kel-Tec_SUB-2000 Hendrickson90 (talk) 21:38, 28 March 2023 (UTC)

Not done for now: @Hendrickson90: The sources currently used appear to only verify that the weapons were "two assault-style rifles and a handgun", as the article currently reads. If there are reliable sources that go into further detail about the types of weapons, please provide them and resubmit this request. ––FormalDude (talk) 02:57, 29 March 2023 (UTC)

Extended-confirmed-protected edit request on 29 March 2023

Change using Hale's name to avoid pronoun usage to he/him pronouns. Avoiding the use of gender pronouns for a person who we know the preferred pronouns of is a form of misgendering. In the talk page there is a discussion about the use of they/them pronouns being a form of misgendering and this is the same premise. If you know someone's pronouns and avoid using those pronouns in any way you are misgendering them, whether you are using she/her, they/them, or no pronouns. Derekeaaron1 (talk) 00:55, 29 March 2023 (UTC)

I will add that the changes to remove all he/him pronouns were done by two editors (who I pinged above) that have not posted on this talk page at all, and thus may have been unaware that current editorial consensus on this page is to use he/him pronouns instead of avoiding all pronouns together — as the majority of sources now report that the shooter was a trans man who used he/him pronouns. This should be changed back to how it was. 2600:1700:87D3:3460:E07E:FFB:80F2:8234 (talk) 01:03, 29 March 2023 (UTC)

@Kieronoldham: "A neighbor of Hale's said that he/she lived with his/her parents." — this isn't better, it's even worse. (Additionally "he-she" is a common anti-trans slur, which I know this isn't, but it's uncomfortably close.) Please look at the many discussions about pronouns on this talk page! Consensus is to use he/him pronouns. 2600:1700:87D3:3460:E07E:FFB:80F2:8234 (talk) 01:56, 29 March 2023 (UTC)

The only thing I can suggest, is some form of improvement as opposed to "A neighbor of Hale's said that Hale lived with Hale's parents."--Kieronoldham (talk) 01:59, 29 March 2023 (UTC)

That form of improvement should be reverting back to he/him pronouns, as per extensive discussions on this talk page. Two editors who have not posted on this talk page at all were responsible for removing all instances of them, against consensus. A majority of sources now concur that the shooter was a trans man who used he/him pronouns. There is no reason to use any differently. 2600:1700:87D3:3460:E07E:FFB:80F2:8234 (talk) 02:02, 29 March 2023 (UTC)

 Already done: The article appears to currently use he/him pronouns for Hale. ––FormalDude (talk) 02:50, 29 March 2023 (UTC)

Extended-confirmed-protected edit request on 29 March 2023 (2)

I would like to suggest to have the word "suggested" reworded to "speculated" in the *=== Around perpetrator's identity ===* section. From what I've seen by reading the source attached to the article, it turns out that there is no current public information on whether the perpetrator was taking testosterone and medications for mental illness or not. Although indeed Rep. Marjorie Taylor Greene and Fox News host Laura Ingraham did suggest these drugs as a cause, the lack of information about whether the shooter actually took them or not makes these suggestions, to me, nothing more but speculation. Due to how recent this shooting is and the current lack of information, I feel that adding a clarification mentioning the current lack of info on whether the shooter took drugs or not, or changing the word "suggested" to "speculated" will help make readers more aware that these suggestions are currently just speculation, due to the lack of public information as of right now.[6] B3251 (talk) 01:25, 29 March 2023 (UTC)

 Done - 🔥𝑰𝒍𝒍𝒖𝒔𝒊𝒐𝒏 𝑭𝒍𝒂𝒎𝒆 (𝒕𝒂𝒍𝒌)🔥 01:53, 29 March 2023 (UTC)

👍 B3251 (talk) 02:23, 29 March 2023 (UTC)

Perpetrator's identity

Should the quotes in this section, particularly the last one by Donald Trump, stand as just quotes with no clarification when the reference used for them itself states "There have been dozens of mass shootings this year, and researchers have found that 98% of such attacks are carried out by men"? Silverseren^C 02:18, 29 March 2023 (UTC)

I removed the sentence quoting Trump Jr. ––FormalDude (talk) 02:34, 29 March 2023 (UTC)

Good it was baseless bullshit anyway EvergreenFir (talk) 02:39, 29 March 2023 (UTC)

I'm the guy that put in the actual quote. I see no problems with removing anything he said, unless Wikipedia starts deeming socio-political commentary by children of former Presidents to be somehow significant, which I dearly hope not. Or his comments somehow result in something tangible other than re-tweets. The article that was used as a reference seems to have misquoted his tweet, but I suppose that's immaterial now. Oathed (talk) 02:43, 29 March 2023 (UTC)

Half-staff

Can someone add that President Biden ordered all federal buildings flags to be flown at half-staff, because the article doesn't mention it right now. The sources I've found that say this are: [[7]] and [[8]]. I think flags being at half-staff was mentioned in One of the other shooting articles and would therefore be fine to include here as well. I think this should be in the 'Reactions' section. 77.219.2.6 (talk) 05:13, 29 March 2023 (UTC)

 Partly done: I'm not the best at adding sources. I tried my best, but someone will fix it up. GreenFrogsGoRibbit (talk) 05:28, 29 March 2023 (UTC)

 Done Marking as resolved, referencing looks good. Archiving. A09 (talk) 15:15, 29 March 2023 (UTC)

Pronouns

The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

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Police report states the shooter was a trans man (not a trans woman), who was born Audrey but went by Aiden and used he/him pronouns. https://www.washingtontimes.com/news/2023/mar/27/audrey-hale-identified-nashville-school-shooter-re/ 24.188.35.116 (talk) 23:13, 27 March 2023 (UTC)

it looks like someone has (wisely) changed the article to not use pronouns to refer to hale, since the only source claiming the shooter to be transgender has been the police. probably best to keep it that way until more information comes out for confirmation. there's been quite a lot of confusion about the shooter's gender, and considering the anti-trans reactionaries jumping onto this, keeping it vague is probably for the best You know i had to do it to em and i did what had to be done (talk) 23:19, 27 March 2023 (UTC)

There seems also to be confusion about the shooter's biological sex. tobych (talk) 06:24, 29 March 2023 (UTC)

She was born female, and apparently was female at home. Went out she chose to identify as homosexual and trans. While activists are already screaming she should be called a he, and some (many?) news organisations are switching to calling her a him, the facts are the facts. I'm not sure if there are Wikipedia rules on the subject but I'd argue either using female pronouns since she was female, or avoid pronouns altogether and use Hale or the shooter. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 2001:44b8:2104:4600:590d:6bc0:543d:df08 (talk • contribs) 07:44, 29 March 2023 (UTC)

The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

Gendered by what the US justice would call them?

The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

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Since all of the US justice system would call the perpetrator a female should wikipedia go along with the US justice system?

If the female perpetrator had went to prison she would have no longer identified as a male and would let the US justice system classify her as female so that she could avoid going to a male prison. Does the US justice system even let a female who identifies as male go to a male prison? 172.79.177.28 (talk) 02:53, 28 March 2023 (UTC)

For the first line: no, Wikipedia shouldn't, and it won't, per MOS:GENDERID. 2600:1700:87D3:3460:7472:BF3A:464B:A1FE (talk) 03:00, 28 March 2023 (UTC)

I'm curious how you know what the shooter would have done had he survived. Is there an RS of his writings stating that he wanted to go to a sex-segregated prison for women? The only sources I can find say he intended to die by suicide if not killed (in a message to a friend). TricksterWolf (talk) 20:13, 28 March 2023 (UTC)

WP:NOTFORUM and WP:OR applies so no addition to the article should be made until it's been reported by WP:RS. A09 (talk) 13:07, 29 March 2023 (UTC)

The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

Extended-confirmed-protected edit request on 29 March 2023 (3)

I would like to add images and CCTV of the shooting. Spacyiscool234 (talk) 09:11, 29 March 2023 (UTC)

Good luck finding some that are not covered by copyright. WWGB (talk) 09:21, 29 March 2023 (UTC)

I think images of the CCTV footage would not comply with Wikipedia:Image use policy, the policy that explains how images can be used on Wikipedia. If you do think that there is an image that can comply with the Wikipedia:Image use policy, then feel free to mention it. (Mainly those with the proper Creative Commons license.) --Super Goku V (talk) 10:24, 29 March 2023 (UTC)

Link to footage already available using {{external media}}. - Knightsoftheswords281 i.e Crusader1096 ( Talk Contribs Wikis ) 10:35, 29 March 2023 (UTC)

Not done – empty request Sorry, your request has not been done. You've provided no pictures for consideration and if you're asking for the ability to edit this page yourself, you've come to the wrong place in any event. GreenFrogsGoRibbit (talk) 21:53, 29 March 2023 (UTC)

Extended-confirmed-protected edit request on 30 March 2023 (2)

Change the He into a She to make it accurate. TheEqualizer12345 (talk) 05:34, 30 March 2023 (UTC)

 Not done See FAQ at top of this talk page, and the various discussions that continue. —Locke Cole • t • c 05:40, 30 March 2023 (UTC)

Extended-confirmed-protected edit request on 30 March 2023

Someone has added details about the two guns other than the Kel-Tec to the infobox, despite the only source being Newsweek, which is not a reliable source — as has been discussed on this talk page repeatedly.

These two should be removed and reverted to the generic descriptions of guns, generic descriptions that were sourced reliably, leaving only the Kel-Tec specified. 2600:1700:87D3:3460:579:E31:E772:8E80 (talk) 02:26, 30 March 2023 (UTC)

Tagging @JBW95 and Gdeblois19, who added the two guns. 2600:1700:87D3:3460:579:E31:E772:8E80 (talk) 02:36, 30 March 2023 (UTC)

 Done. ––FormalDude (talk) 02:43, 30 March 2023 (UTC)

Extended-confirmed-protected edit request on 30 March 2023 (3)

The perpetrator was a she, not a he. I have no respect for that person, and although she is dead I think the whole world has had enough of her delusions, whatever they may be. We should not protect violent criminals from being uncomfortable, "Aiden" was a woman! Stop this madness and open the topic for anyone to discuss, this soft censorship around calling her a "he" because she identified as a man is ridiculous. 83.223.224.34 (talk) 13:02, 30 March 2023 (UTC)

 Not done: Wikipedia does not report The Truth. Wikipedia uses the pronouns used in the majority of reliable, published, secondary sources. Snowmanonahoe (talk) 13:10, 30 March 2023 (UTC)

Wrong identification

The shooter is a biological female. Not a misgendered male. There is no such thing as misgendering. There is factually only two genders and you cannot choose which one u want to be. 41.13.5.132 (talk) 14:37, 30 March 2023 (UTC)

Please see above discussions and reports of reliable sources. A09 (talk) 15:54, 30 March 2023 (UTC)

Can we please just block this troll? Trade (talk) 16:25, 30 March 2023 (UTC)

In the future, revert and ignore. If it's the same editor or IP multiple times report it. ScottishFinnishRadish (talk) 17:04, 30 March 2023 (UTC)

Came out recently?

The suspect may have come out recently. From Snopes:

Speaking to The Daily Beast, an unnamed source reportedly close to Hale's family said she "recently announced she was transgender, identifying as he/him."

I'm not certain whether this is worth including, please discuss. VintageVernacular (talk) 04:19, 28 March 2023 (UTC)

Unnamed source and reportedly don't sound like such good terms to have for inclusion of information like that. Especially since we can't know if they actually knew much about the person's life. Close relatives often claim they knew all about someone, but were actually completely ignorant. Silverseren^C 04:23, 28 March 2023 (UTC)

An unnamed source who still chooses to use "she" in the same breath as acknowledging the person prefers "he/him" also raises a small red flag. 2600:1700:87D3:3460:7472:BF3A:464B:A1FE (talk) 04:28, 28 March 2023 (UTC)

Yes, I think I agree with you now. I had the thought that a recent coming-out may have (say for instance: if it was received very poorly) had some kind of impact on the motive or timing of the shooting, and thus this comment may have been more relevant to future developments than it seems, but if so then we'll just have to wait for stronger evidence. VintageVernacular (talk) 04:32, 28 March 2023 (UTC)

I am bracing myself for the police releasing the manifesto and reading about how he was motivated by general lack of acceptance of his transition or the christian values of the school he targeted being oppressive. this is already going to be a huge hit to the fight for trans rights which we are already losing, and if that happens it's going to be really bad. Derekeaaron1 (talk) 22:32, 28 March 2023 (UTC)

Just a thought

Since the sources differ on what name to use for the suspect, perhaps A. Hale could be used as a compromise? I know that it isn’t commonplace to refer to mass shooters with just the first initial, but it’s still technically correct in either case. Some might consider it a good idea from an ethical standpoint too, since by partially anonymizing them it would avoid giving the shooter too much “fame”/attention. It might also be a prudent measure if, as is suspected to be the case in the Colorado Springs nightclub shooting, the suspect’s gender transition turns out to be less than sincere. Since Hale is dead, we may never know for sure. LonelyBoy2012 (talk) 19:07, 28 March 2023 (UTC)

Per my understanding of MOS:GENDERID, I think the shooter's full name as reported in reliable sources, Audrey Elizabeth Hale, should be stated once, and from then on he should be referred to as simply "Hale" in the article (which would be standard practice anyway). If enough reliable sources state that the shooter changed his name to "Aiden", that should be included as well. But it seems clear that he gained notability under the name Audrey, even though most trans people would consider that a deadname. (I'm trans myself, for the record.) Funcrunch (talk) 19:15, 28 March 2023 (UTC)

He only gained notariety under the name Audrey because people are using his deadname. The notariety was gained while he was using the name Aiden, and this is an actively developing story that will most likely result in Aiden being used to refer to him moreso than Audrey. Derekeaaron1 (talk) 21:44, 28 March 2023 (UTC)

It's a WP:DEADNAME, but the shooter is more notable under "Audrey Hale" than "Aiden Hale". That being said, DEADNAME exists for WP:BLP reasons. Hale isn't a living person anymore, so there's not much of a compelling reason to err on the side of caution to protect his privacy. Chess (talk) (please use {{reply to|Chess}} on reply) 19:17, 28 March 2023 (UTC)

@Chess: See up here and the few posts below in that thread. BDP does have exceptions for the recently deceased, and there is precedent to change away from someone's deadname even when that deadname is more notable and the person is deceased. The question is what editorial consensus will be in this case. (Seeking that consensus might be better spun off into its own section?) 2600:1700:87D3:3460:E07E:FFB:80F2:8234 (talk) 19:31, 28 March 2023 (UTC)

Using someone's preferred name is not just about protecting their privacy it's about being respectful of their identity- more importantly, this issue effects all trans people not just this individual, and if we decide to just stop caring about people who we don't think it matters for then we're not even trying to make the world/wikipedia even marginally welcoming to trans people. Derekeaaron1 (talk) 21:51, 28 March 2023 (UTC)

A couple sources treat "Aiden" as an alternate name, and perhaps the suspect did as well. This was what he wrote in one text:

See you in another life
Audrey
(Aiden)

So I've changed one of the sentences in the article to read: Audrey Elizabeth Hale, who also went by Aiden, was identified by the police as the shooter. WanderingWanda🐮👑 (talk) 19:56, 28 March 2023 (UTC)

There are a lot of reasons he might have written it that way that have nothing to do with his actual preferred name. It's very common, especially early in transition, for people to continue to use their deadname while the people in their life get used to it or with specific people who do not accept them for who they are. It's my understanding that he used Aiden on social media aside from linkedin, which nobody updates unless they're looking for work, and that indicates to me that he was using the name Aiden and not Audrey whenever possible. I think he should be referred to as Aiden and it should be mentioned in the lead that he used to go by and is often referred to by the media as Audrey. Derekeaaron1 (talk) 21:47, 28 March 2023 (UTC)

I understand what you're saying but this is a difficult situation as we have very little to go on here, either from reliable sources or from pages maintained by Hale himself. We can't ask him so we shouldn't speculate on why he used Aiden in some places and Audrey in others. I think it's unlikely that we'll get consensus to remove Hale's deadname from this article entirely. (Again, I'm speaking as a transmasculine person myself.) Funcrunch (talk) 22:14, 28 March 2023 (UTC)

why does not speculating mean assuming that his birth name was the one he preferred, rather than the one he consciously chose and allegedly even wrote on a weapon used in the shooting? it's widely accepted, at least by my community, that if someone chooses a name for themselves you use that name unless they specifically say they want to keep their old name in rotation. I don't think anyone is arguing that we should remove any mention of his birth name. I could see an argument for referring to him as Aiden/Audrey throughout the article, but in my opinion there is no justifying referring to him only as Audrey when we know he chose the name Aiden and went by that name on social media. Derekeaaron1 (talk) 22:22, 28 March 2023 (UTC)

It has come out that the person he was sending messages to was someone who didn't know he was trans, which would explain why he included his birth name in that message.

https://abcnews.go.com/US/friend-contacted-authorities-after-speaking-nashville-shooter-audrey/story?id=98182991

https://www.cnn.com/2023/03/28/us/covenant-school-shooting-nashville-tennessee-tuesday/index.html Derekeaaron1 (talk) 23:23, 28 March 2023 (UTC)

We now have a source stating that the shooter did indeed ask to be referred to as Aiden.

NYT: "Maria Colomy, a former instructor at the Nossi College of Art & Design in Nashville, said she taught the shooter, whom the police have identified as Audrey Hale, in 2017, and later saw Facebook posts in which her former student asked to be called by a new name, Aiden, as well as by male pronouns." 2600:1700:87D3:3460:E07E:FFB:80F2:8234 (talk) 00:41, 29 March 2023 (UTC)

Add timeline

I was thinking about maybe add a timeline of the event. This source may help. [9]https://www.cnn.com/interactive/2023/03/us/timeline-covenant-school-shooting-nashville/index.html Cwater1 (talk) 03:21, 29 March 2023 (UTC)

Remove the part regarding Gun laws in Tennessee

This isn't the page for that and it is very clearly politically biased, so it should not be included. Bageltre (talk) 21:48, 28 March 2023 (UTC)

Which part, specifically? Also, do you think the material is WP:UNDUE? EvergreenFir (talk) 21:53, 28 March 2023 (UTC)

I believe this is what @Bageltre is referring to:

"Gun laws in Tennessee are considered lax, with a recent 2021 bill allowing all those aged 21 and older to carry a loaded handgun in public, openly or concealed without requiring a permit. There were also no requirements for background checks or trainings for handgun owners, with rifles and shotguns being able to be purchased by anyone over 18 and can be carried open and unloaded. Two additional bills aimed to loosen gun regulations in the state were being debated in the legislature in the months before the shooting."

I also agree that this is unnecessary. I don't see why Tennessee's background check laws matter when the shooter did not have a criminal record, nor how trainings for handgun owners would have affected the shooter. A person being able to carry a loaded handgun in public without a permit also does not matter because the shooter had a rifle as well. Silent-Rains (talk) 22:07, 28 March 2023 (UTC)

Hi, I was the one that added that part. I felt it should be included since the shooter is listed as having a handgun and rifles on them at the time of the shooting. It was in the background section, as I had seen multiple different articles of both local and national sources reference the gun laws alongside discussio of the shooting and the perpetrator. (Sorry for any mistakes I'm on mobile) Leaky.Solar (talk) 22:32, 28 March 2023 (UTC)

It is WP:UNDUE because the firearms were acquired legally and background checks did not matter in this case. The shooter used weapons that were not allowed to be used in the public anyway and the laws don't matter. If it is relevant again to this story then maybe it should stay but for now it should be removed.

Also, what is a scholarhistorian? BageItre (talk) 22:59, 28 March 2023 (UTC)

BageItre, do you need a different account for each edit, or have you lost your password? — Nythar (💬-🍀) 01:31, 29 March 2023 (UTC)

I lost my old account. 50.53.20.13 (talk) 04:42, 29 March 2023 (UTC)

and I forgot to login for this Bageltre (talk) 04:44, 29 March 2023 (UTC)

Also, the status of if one was under mental health care didn't seem to apply. I'm not familiar with the Tennessee laws at this time so my facts may not be straight. Hale was under care for emotional disorder. Cwater1 (talk) 03:19, 29 March 2023 (UTC)

Head of School Katherine Koonce Killed Whilst Charging Hale?

Just saw a news article which suggests Koonce may have been killed whilst confronting Hale. It's likely too early to update the article as it's unconfirmed, but I'm noting the details here for future reference.

Koonce was in the middle of a Zoom meeting - with whom isn't stated, when gunshots rang out. She immediately ended the call and headed straight out. Metro Nashville police chief John Drake said he is sure there was a confrontation based on the position of Koonce's body, but can't say precisely what happened with Hale before she shot her.

Prior to the shooting Koonce had prepared The Covenant School by “seeking advanced level active shooter training” which “saved countless lives” when the shooting occurred. 2001:44B8:2104:4600:590D:6BC0:543D:DF08 (talk) 08:54, 29 March 2023 (UTC)

For reference, the source of these claims is an interview Nashville City Councilman Russ Pulley gave exclusively to Fox News Digital. This is the original source, and the interview's quotes have since been repeated by The Telegraph and The Independent. All three are reliable sources as per RSP (as I don't believe this counts as politics, for which Fox News' reliability is in question, and it wasn't given to a talk show on the network). 2600:1700:87D3:3460:E07E:FFB:80F2:8234 (talk) 09:02, 29 March 2023 (UTC)

Extended-confirmed-protected edit request on 28 March 2023 (3)

In the infobox, under Weapons it currently reads:

Weapons	Lead Star Arms Grunt AR-15 style pistol[1] Kel-Tec SUB-2000 carbine Smith & Wesson M&P 9 Shield EZ

The cited source only specifies the Kel-Tec gun; the other two are not specified. The other guns can be deduced based on the images and videos put out by police, but the only sources I can find that actually specify them are Newsweek (not listed as reliable in the WP:RSP) and the Gun Violence Archive (whose reliability does not appear to have been previously discussed).

If either of those two sources is considered reliable for these purposes, then the [1] citation should be moved to the Kel-Tec and appropriate citations should be added next to the other two.

If not, as I assume is the case for now, the citation should be moved and the other two guns made generic as per sources in the article text:

Weapons	Assault-style pistol Kel-Tec SUB-2000 carbine[1] Handgun

2600:1700:87D3:3460:E07E:FFB:80F2:8234 (talk) 00:07, 29 March 2023 (UTC)

Not done for now: The infobox has been updated using this CNN source. ––FormalDude (talk) 03:00, 29 March 2023 (UTC)

Just to add to this, Newsweek only says that they "appear" to be these, not that they are. So, I don't think we would need to consider if the Newsweek article was an exception or not as Newsweek is not saying it as fact but as a probability. As for the Archive, it is used in just a handful of articles, though the articles it is used it are Mass shooting, 2022 in the United States, [[Gun violence in the United States], etc. However, I can't get the link to work as it keeps getting stuck in a loop, so I wasn't able to see what they actually said. --Super Goku V (talk) 10:11, 29 March 2023 (UTC)

More Audrey info

Audrey died three days after her 28th birthday, please add - Thanks. 2600:1702:5225:C010:7882:7F46:BC0F:6466 (talk) 15:32, 28 March 2023 (UTC)

Unless sources mention that as important, it's trivia that we would not include. EvergreenFir (talk) 15:52, 28 March 2023 (UTC)

Oh. Well I just found it on a website about the life of Audrey. Besides, every suspect has a story behind it, especially in early life. 2600:1702:5225:C010:7882:7F46:BC0F:6466 (talk) 15:58, 28 March 2023 (UTC)

Some of our articles about mass shootings include the perpetrators' dates of birth, but most don't. Those which do include Sandy Hook Elementary School shooting, Sutherland Springs church shooting & Stoneman Douglas High School shooting. It's relevant enough to include & should be if it's reliably sourced. Jim Michael 2 (talk) 16:14, 28 March 2023 (UTC)

I have to agree with Jim Michael 2. Most stories involve those incidents needs to have some early personal information involving the suspect but not all. Date-of-births are important as well as where he/she live previously (just to name a few). 2600:1702:5225:C010:7882:7F46:BC0F:6466 (talk) 17:40, 28 March 2023 (UTC)

According to Audrey's Deviantart profile, her birthday is the 10th of September. I recommend we do not state her date of birth until confirmed by officials. VonVivik09 (talk) 11:23, 29 March 2023 (UTC)

Deviantart is not WP:RS. A09 (talk) 13:15, 29 March 2023 (UTC)

I cannot imagine why she would put 09/10/1995 as her birthday if this was not the case, although, I understand your reasoning. Do we have any confirmation from reliable sources that her birthday was 3 days before the shooting? VonVivik09 (talk) 14:10, 29 March 2023 (UTC)

Pronoun inconsistencies

This page is really inconsistent with using the pronouns of the perpetrator. at some points it uses she/her, while others it uses he/him. Doesn't wikipedia respect the pronouns of transgender people? 24.94.27.97 (talk) 16:30, 28 March 2023 (UTC)

Agree with this. Until there is a consensus of media and official sources the article should use they/them pronouns. GBRSean (talk) 16:42, 28 March 2023 (UTC)

Audrey Hale used he/him pronouns on his linkedin page and neighbors who said he identified as transgender used he/him pronouns. There's no reason to use they/them pronouns for someone who we know used he/him pronouns. That would only be further confusing and distract from the topic of the shooting by drawing additional attention to his gender identity/pronouns. Derekeaaron1 (talk) 17:25, 28 March 2023 (UTC)

Apparently he also went by the name Aiden so why is that not even mentioned in the article, let alone used consistently to refer to him? Derekeaaron1 (talk) 17:29, 28 March 2023 (UTC)

"They/them" are gender neutral, rather than neuter gendered. Every person on the planet is a "they/them" in addition to whatever else they identify as. Use of "they/them" is 100% correct. I support the use of "they/them" until clarity may be had, and also in an effort to distance Wikipedia from participating in misgendering simply because cited article sources misgender (either from lack of knowledge, or from willful malice) HeroofTime55 (talk) 21:11, 28 March 2023 (UTC)

Using they/them instead of he/him, when most sources now acknowledge the shooter was a trans man who used he/him, is itself misgendering. As a trans person, if I tell you my pronouns are she/her and you address me as they/them, you don't get to go "I'm not misgendering because it's technically correct!" 2600:1700:87D3:3460:E07E:FFB:80F2:8234 (talk) 21:25, 28 March 2023 (UTC)

Of course it isn't misgendering, they/them are gender neutral. Miraculously majestic master of mayhem (talk) 22:58, 28 March 2023 (UTC)

they/them pronouns being gender neutral doesn't mean they aren't misgendering. if you know someone's pronouns and you choose to use different pronouns you're misgendering them, regardless of what the pronouns you choose to use may be. you don't know what you're talking about. Derekeaaron1 (talk) 23:07, 28 March 2023 (UTC)

Derekeaaron1 you're wrong. 'They/them' are by definition non-gender specific. You might not like it, but you can't misgender someone by using a non-gender specific term. Logic and common sense are not on your side with this one/ Miraculously majestic master of mayhem (talk) 14:11, 29 March 2023 (UTC)

Discussion wandered into off topic. WP:NOTFORUM applies as latest comments in this thread have no connection to perpertrator. A09 (talk) 13:17, 29 March 2023 (UTC)

Seven Guns in Several Stores

Just came in, Hale legally purchased a grand total of seven guns from several different local gun stores in all across Nashville. 2600:1702:5225:C010:7882:7F46:BC0F:6466 (talk) 17:51, 28 March 2023 (UTC)

Source, please? — Nythar (💬-🍀) 17:52, 28 March 2023 (UTC)

NBC News mentions seven firearms purchased from five (not seven) different local gun stores. Funcrunch (talk) 19:02, 28 March 2023 (UTC)

NPR: "Chief Drake said during a Tuesday press briefing that the shooter had legally purchased seven firearms from five local gun dealers. Three of those weapons were used in Monday's attack."

CNN: "The shooter who killed six people at a private school in Nashville purchased at least seven guns legally and locally, according to Metro Nashville Police Chief John Drake. Drake said those seven firearms were purchased from five different gun stores in Nashville. Three of the guns were used during the shooting at Covenant School Monday, he said."

NYT: "The shooter purchased seven firearms from five local gun stores and stashed them around the house, Mr. Drake said, using three of them on Monday to kill three 9-year-old children and three adults." 2600:1700:87D3:3460:E07E:FFB:80F2:8234 (talk) 19:02, 28 March 2023 (UTC)

That is true. Hale being under care for emotional disorder. Hale was still able to legally obtain weapons. Cwater1 (talk) 03:16, 29 March 2023 (UTC)

@Cwater1: Any WP:RS backing up your claims about emotional disorder? A09 (talk) 13:18, 29 March 2023 (UTC)

https://amp.cnn.com/cnn/2023/03/28/us/audrey-hale-nashville-school-shooting/index.html Found this Cwater1 (talk) 15:43, 29 March 2023 (UTC)

Pronouns (again)

There seems to be a rough consensus the past day to use he/him pronouns for the perpetrator based on new information. A number of WP:RS are using he/him or confirming the perpetrator was a trans man according to the police (Independent, The Guardian, WaPo, NPR). There are still some sources (e.g., Fox News) who seem to contradict this, but given that the police are saying Hale was transgender and used he/him pronouns, I suggest we adhere to WP:GENDERID and use them as well. EvergreenFir (talk) 18:43, 28 March 2023 (UTC)

I would also suggest changing "used male pronouns" in the Perpetrator section to "used he/him pronouns", as per usual Wikipedia style (see articles like Ari Fitz, Miles McKenna, R.D. Riccoboni, Utica Queen, and so on). 2600:1700:87D3:3460:E07E:FFB:80F2:8234 (talk) 18:46, 28 March 2023 (UTC)

I just changed it to masculine pronouns which is the linguistics term for he/him in English. EvergreenFir (talk) 18:50, 28 March 2023 (UTC)

you do not have to identify as male or masculine to use he/him pronouns, which is why the vast majority of trans people do not refer to he/him pronouns as anything other than "he/him pronouns." they may be referred to as "masculine" in linguistic terms, but that is really outdated to the point that some younger people might not recognize the term. for clarity and for inclusivity we should use the term "he/him pronouns" when speaking about he/him pronouns. Derekeaaron1 (talk) 23:16, 28 March 2023 (UTC)

I don't think there's any consensus regarding renaming of masculine pronouns to whichever naming is preffered today. IMO it would fall under WP:OR to not call he/him pronouns "masculine". A09 (talk) 13:23, 29 March 2023 (UTC)

Agreed; at this point it makes sense to use he/him pronouns in this article. There's still going to be a fair amount of confusion regarding the name, but I fear that's unavoidable at this stage. Funcrunch (talk) 19:00, 28 March 2023 (UTC)

The shooter was a trans man, so he/him is justified. Chess (talk) (please use {{reply to|Chess}} on reply) 19:19, 28 March 2023 (UTC)

Commenting to point to another discussion on pronouns made after this section. I closed it to centralize discussion. Please see Talk:2023 Covenant School shooting#Gendered Pronouns EvergreenFir (talk) 21:52, 28 March 2023 (UTC)

@Some1: Why did you remove all pronouns in favor of using "Hale" everywhere? That goes against editorial consensus here. A source is not required to use the same pronouns as we use in the article; that's never been the case. 2600:1700:87D3:3460:E07E:FFB:80F2:8234 (talk) 00:16, 29 March 2023 (UTC)

@Kline: Ditto. 2600:1700:87D3:3460:E07E:FFB:80F2:8234 (talk) 00:19, 29 March 2023 (UTC)

It depends on what that person went by. We don't want to get in trouble for using the wrong thing. Cwater1 (talk) 15:45, 29 March 2023 (UTC)

Include The Names of The Police Officers?

Shouldn't the name of at least the 2 police officer(Rex Engelbert and Michael Collazo) be included? Sticktheok (talk) 07:15, 29 March 2023 (UTC)

Why? They were just doing their job. What is notable about that? WWGB (talk) 07:22, 29 March 2023 (UTC)

Conversely why are officers names in the Uvalde article? Not because WWGD believes they're notable but because RS reports on them and we're an encyclopedia that presents information relevant to the event in a neutral manner.

If there are RS and sufficient weight, include it unless there is policy that says not to. After all, what does it matter whether or not the officers were or were not just "doing their job"? Kcmastrpc (talk) 09:58, 29 March 2023 (UTC)

The Uvalde shooting is a bad example to use as there are really good reasons given. To breifly quote, [...] Steve McCraw, Texas Department of Public Safety Director, testified during the Texas Senate Committee Meeting on the Uvalde School Shooting that the police response was an "abject failure and antithetical to everything we have learned over the past two decades" and that the police could have stopped the shooter in three minutes. In contrast, the two officers are being mentioned by sources as heroes: 1, 2, 3, 4, etc. Very different situations. --Super Goku V (talk) 10:40, 29 March 2023 (UTC)

Stopping a notable mass shooting from getting worse is pretty notable, as RS note. Not enough for a standalone article, but clearly important characters in this context. I disagree that naming should only (or mostly) be for shaming. It also just helps to tell a story when the players are introduced. Calling both officers "officers" or one "one" and the other "another" is needlessly vague, given that they're as publicly known as their chief, John Drake. InedibleHulk (talk) 17:42, 29 March 2023 (UTC)

The year shouldn't be in the title

If the title were 2023 Nashville shooting, the year would likely be justified. The year isn't usually in titles of attacks that include specific locations, such as Columbine High School massacre & Stoneman Douglas High School shooting. Jim Michael 2 (talk) 21:46, 27 March 2023 (UTC)

It seems to vary. The majority of articles under the sub-categories of Category:School shootings in the United States use no year rather than a year. Meanwhile, three of the four sub-categories of Category:2020s mass shootings in the United States have a majority using the year than no year. --Super Goku V (talk) 22:28, 27 March 2023 (UTC)

As per usual, Jim is cherry-picking and using WP:OTHERSTUFFEXISTS to try to overcome WP:NCE, which says this:

In the majority of cases, the title of the article should contain the following three descriptors:

• When the incident happened.
• Where the incident happened.
• What happened.

There is no exception made for school shootings as some category that is excluded from WP:NCE. I'll note that Jim has also chosen two very high profile examples which aren't named per WP:NCE, but rather per WP:COMMONNAME. Which actually brings me to my next point: almost all of our sources refer to this as the "Nashville" mass shooting/massacre. The school name is not used in any of our sources. Of course, since this event is so recent, there is no COMMONNAME to use yet, but this is why NCE prescribes when, where and what happened as the title for an event with no clear name. @Jim Michael 2 Do you have a WP:PAG-backed reason to justify having the year omitted? —Locke Cole • t • c 22:33, 27 March 2023 (UTC)

Also, @Jim Michael 2, stop abusing edit summaries like this and use the talk page. You literally did nothing productive there whatsoever. And you're seriously showing WP:DISRUPTSIGNS with that diff and this section (which is just the latest incarnation of you not liking what the community has decided). —Locke Cole • t • c 22:41, 27 March 2023 (UTC)

I'm not cherry-picking or going against rules or consensus. The large majority of our articles about attacks at specific locations don't include the year, whether they're high-profile or not. I gave examples of high-profile ones, but many relatively low-profile ones such as Pearl High School shooting, Heath High School shooting & Chardon High School shooting also have the same clear, concise, yearless format. It's more precise to use the school's name in the title than its city.

In that edit, I removed a gap that shouldn't have been there; there's no rule that all edits need be major. There's nothing disruptive about my edit summaries. You tried to push against clear strong consensus to add mini-bios of victims - which included very trivial things such as hobbies & favorite foods - on Robb Elementary School shooting. Jim Michael 2 (talk) 14:46, 28 March 2023 (UTC)

You are literally cherry picking. You're choosing a very narrow category (school shootings) instead of all mass shooting events to base your opinion on, which, AGAIN, is just WP:OTHERSTUFFEXISTS. I removed a gap that shouldn't have been there; there's no rule that all edits need be major. There actually is a rule about making pointless edits, and theres also a rule about using "good edit summaries". Your edit summary had nothing whatsoever to do with the line you removed (which had no visual impact on the article). Just stop. Respect the consensus at WP:NCE. —Locke Cole • t • c 16:20, 28 March 2023 (UTC)

I'm comparing like with like. Those which have the settlement rather than a specific location are much more likely to need the year. The many at other non-school locations which don't have the year in the title include Milwaukee brewery shooting, Mayfair Mall shooting, Don Carter Lanes shooting, Buffalo, Minnesota clinic attack, Indianapolis FedEx shooting, Collierville Kroger shooting, Columbiana Centre shooting and Highland Park parade shooting. It's usual to not include the year when the location is specific, and that isn't limited to shootings. Jim Michael 2 (talk) 16:46, 28 March 2023 (UTC)

Do you just not understand WP:NCE or do you just not care? —Locke Cole • t • c 16:56, 28 March 2023 (UTC)

I think Jim is correct one this. From WP:NCE and WP:NOYEAR,

Examples of some events that are so immediately identifiable that the date is not needed in the article title:

Only "where" and "what"

• Tenerife airport disaster
  • Where: Tenerife airport
  • What: deadliest accident in aviation history
• Chernobyl disaster
  • Where: Chernobyl Nuclear Power Plant
  • What: worst nuclear power plant accident in history
• Virginia Tech shooting
  • Where: Virginia Polytechnic Institute and State University
  • What: deadliest school shooting in U.S. history
• Charlie Hebdo shooting
  • Where: Offices of Charlie Hebdo
  • What: shooting of journalists and cartoonists

Locke Cole, why do you keep pointing to NCE when it is clear that it doesn't contradict Jim's suggestions? EvergreenFir (talk) 17:05, 28 March 2023 (UTC)

Thank you. LC is frequently hostile to me since I became one of the many people who oppose his attempts to include a lot of detail of victims' lives in articles about mass shootings in the US. Being civil is of course compulsory on WP. Jim Michael 2 (talk) 17:19, 28 March 2023 (UTC)

Jim, I understand you enjoy using WP:OTHERSTUFFEXISTS, which is a specific form of whataboutism, but what I do to improve articles is not what is being discussed here. Whether or not the article has a year in its title is, and your behavior around that by continually editing against established consensus. —Locke Cole • t • c 19:46, 28 March 2023 (UTC)

I'm showing what we usually do & have done for years. I've moved this article once, which is far from continual. Jim Michael 2 (talk) 21:02, 28 March 2023 (UTC)

Except you're not. WP:NCE documents what the community has decided we should name articles on events. That a few articles about school shootings deviate does not change that community consensus or somehow make it right. It's literally WP:OTHERSTUFFEXISTS. Doing something wrong repeatedly doesn't suddenly make it right. —Locke Cole • t • c 04:06, 29 March 2023 (UTC)

The article you cited claims to be a guideline and exceptions may apply. And you have to agree the accusations of whataboutism are silly. People don't just edit Wikipedia, they also read it, and "2023 Covenant School Shooting" would sound silly to a reader.

In general, you are right. Sadly there are so many mass shootings that there are frequently "duplicates" (i.e., "Nashville shooting" wouldn't bring a specific one to mind). In this specific instance, Jim is right because the event is not called the "2023" anything and won't be until there's another one at that school.

This hostility is weird to watch as someone who is a casual editor. 2603:7081:1603:A300:1CD3:CB15:725:5934 (talk) 14:47, 29 March 2023 (UTC)

@EvergreenFir You're citing the historic perspective examples (all of which are renowned events where NCE is no longer necessarily being used, but WP:COMMONNAME). Specifically, WP:NOYEAR says this: Some articles do not need a year for disambiguation when, in historic perspective, the event is easily described without it. What "historic perspective" is there in an event that just happened yesterday. [W]hy do you keep pointing to NCE when it is clear that it doesn't contradict Jim's suggestions? It quite literally does. 🤷‍♂️ —Locke Cole • t • c 19:41, 28 March 2023 (UTC)

I think that this is a case where I'm not a fan of having the year in this article eventually, but it likely won't help removing the year now. Since the place is specific in the name, unlike 2023 Hamburg shooting, it's much easier for me to justify a removal. I would recommend waiting a bit before a move. InvadingInvader (userpage, talk) 18:36, 28 March 2023 (UTC)

Now that I think about it, I think that I'm gonna open up a discussion on this one. I think that while there is merit in waiting, the arguments to remove the year are much stronger. InvadingInvader (userpage, talk) 20:37, 28 March 2023 (UTC)

the arguments to remove the year are much stronger What arguments? WP:OTHERSTUFFEXISTS doesn't mean we suddenly toss out WP:NCE which has community backing. For something that happened less than 24 hours ago there is no historic perspective to fall back on as WP:NOYEAR suggests. —Locke Cole • t • c 21:06, 28 March 2023 (UTC)

I agree that it should be the 2023 Nashville shooting or the The Covenant School shooting as there's only ever been one. The rules lay out that "if there is an established, common name for an event (such as the Great Depression, Cuban Missile Crisis or a 'Bloody Sunday'), use that name," and in reading all major news outlets covering the event, it's being referred to as the "Nashville shooting," in which case the only missing descriptor is the year. Cgrnt1694 (talk) 01:28, 29 March 2023 (UTC)

@Cgrnt1694 You may wish to chime in at #Requested move 28 March 2023 (below). The thing with common names is that it requires historic perspective. This typically allows our reliable sources to settle in on a name, and doesn't have Wikipedia effectively engaging in citogensis by choosing a name for the media, and making a self-fulfilling prophecy occur where the name we chose ends up being used by our RS. The time required for historic perspective has generally been accepted to be at least a few months to (more desirably) a year. This allows research articles and other quality secondary sources beyond the mainstream media to come up with their own names for this event. —Locke Cole • t • c 04:04, 29 March 2023 (UTC)

As someone who's coming late to this debate and knows nothing of relevant Wikipedia guidelines, rules etc., I'll chime in that all these sorts of events---shootings, transportation disasters, terrorist attacks, environmental incidents---might best be labeled with the year as an ending or a parenthetical. e.g. "Covenant School Shooting---2023," "Bhopal disaster (1984)."98.114.190.60 (talk) 18:29, 29 March 2023 (UTC)

Edit which firearms are included

The 3 firearms that were used are an M&P Shield 9 ez, an AR-15, and a Keltec Sub2000, which you can see in this video https://www.youtube.com/watch?t=35&v=UeXLhQv11tY Bageltre (talk) 21:23, 28 March 2023 (UTC)

Those weapons are already specified in the infobox; besides, this source does not state what the firearms are, just shows photos of them. 2600:1700:87D3:3460:E07E:FFB:80F2:8234 (talk) 21:28, 28 March 2023 (UTC)

sorry, I didn't see the info box Bageltre (talk) 21:35, 28 March 2023 (UTC)

Actually — only the Kel-Tec is specified in the linked source for the infobox, not the other two.

Can anyone find a reliable source that notes the other weapons? (I found Newsweek, but they're iffy.) If not, they should be removed pending better source. 2600:1700:87D3:3460:E07E:FFB:80F2:8234 (talk) 21:34, 28 March 2023 (UTC)

you can visibly see them holding the keltec and the ar15 in the video linked previously at ~20 seconds. I haven't been able to confirm the M&P Bageltre (talk) 21:37, 28 March 2023 (UTC)

For us to judge what the weapons are based on the released photos and videos would be considered original research. We need reliable sources that state what they are. All I can find is Newsweek, which is not considered a reliable source. 2600:1700:87D3:3460:E07E:FFB:80F2:8234 (talk) 21:39, 28 March 2023 (UTC)

@Bageltre: Any WP:RS backing up your claims? ID-ing guns through video is WP:OR (even if correctly identified). A09 (talk) 13:26, 29 March 2023 (UTC)

In the article they are shown as "lone star" and is incorrect. The correct name is Lead Star Bryanfox1 (talk) 19:56, 29 March 2023 (UTC)