Talk:2018 Leicester helicopter crash/Archive 1

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Archive 1

First AW169 crash

From a non-RS, quoting a tweet from a user whose tweets are protected, this is the first AW169 crash. Is there a RS for this that can be used? Mjroots (talk) 16:40, 28 October 2018 (UTC)

Managed to find it myself. Mjroots (talk) 20:22, 28 October 2018 (UTC)

Addition to responses section

In the section about response to the crash, should I include the information that in all Sunday League fixtures across Leicestershire the next day, a minute of silence was held before the match? Drunken Sailor7 (talk) 20:54, 28 October 2018 (UTC)

If you have a reliable source, then be bold and go for it! Mjroots (talk) 21:03, 28 October 2018 (UTC)
I'd say do it as it shows the response from the local community, as per above if you can get a reliable source I'd say its suitable. TheMasterGuru (talk) 21:20, 28 October 2018 (UTC)

Night-flight

Due to the time of the flight this would most likely be classed as a night-time flight and that requires the pilot (Eric Swaffer) to have the night-flight qualifications, I also believe you're suppose to have a co-pilot (Izabela Roza Lechowicz) for night flight. Govvy (talk) 09:01, 29 October 2018 (UTC)

We should not speculate and wait for an AAIB report although some non-rs report that Lechowicz is not a helicopter pilot. MilborneOne (talk) 09:33, 29 October 2018 (UTC)
@MilborneOne:, ? Why would you call a night-time flight speculation?? Govvy (talk) 09:36, 29 October 2018 (UTC)
Because you are speculating and infering that something was not right which apart from not showing some respect to those involved is not encyclopedic, if it is relevant it will be reported by reliable sources in due course. MilborneOne (talk) 09:45, 29 October 2018 (UTC)
I am not speculating, I am inferring that it was a night time flight, sunset was 17:44, Saturday, 27 October 2018 (BST), The helicopter crashed at crashed at 20:30 BST. Govvy (talk) 10:12, 29 October 2018 (UTC)
Might well be true, but this information seems to be based on original research regarding aviation laws. Better to wait for sources and the investigation. Joseph2302 (talk) 10:31, 29 October 2018 (UTC)
Heh, I wasn't considering OR when I wrote this, it was more of an observation for thinking of a night-flight, guess it's not that important. My only question was if you needed to have a co-pilot for a night flight. However MilborneOne seems to refuse to answer my question, Govvy (talk) 11:38, 29 October 2018 (UTC)
The minimum crew requirements are listed in the TCDS https://www.easa.europa.eu/sites/default/files/dfu/EASA-TCDS-R-509%20-%20AW169%20Issue%2008.pdf MilborneOne (talk) 13:20, 29 October 2018 (UTC)
Govvy, your question would be better suited in a forum (such as 'Rotorheads' on PPRuNe), but Wikipedia, as we know, is not a forum. --Deeday-UK (talk) 11:51, 29 October 2018 (UTC)
@Deeday-UK: Clearly you missed the point, what I am pointing out is should we add to the article that this was a night-time flight or not. Don't know why you are pointing to not a forum. Govvy (talk) 12:01, 29 October 2018 (UTC)
Do any of the reliable sources indicate that the time of day was relevant to the accident? MilborneOne (talk) 13:16, 29 October 2018 (UTC)

MilborneOne, I guess it really doesn't have any relevance to this accident as there wasn't really much flying time sadly. Govvy (talk) 14:22, 29 October 2018 (UTC)

See also section

What is the point of this? Deb (talk) 21:40, 28 October 2018 (UTC)

See also sections suggest pages on a related topic. In this case, the same thing happened 22 years ago, and is recorded on the page of the most notable victim. Kingsif (talk) 22:06, 28 October 2018 (UTC)
In what way is it relevant to this article? If it's relevant, it should appear in the text, not in the "See also" section. Deb (talk) 07:56, 29 October 2018 (UTC)
That would defeat the purpose of the section existing at all, anywhere, no? Another article is relevant enough to be good further reading on a similar topic, but doesn’t affect the article otherwise. A helicopter crashed after leaving a football game, carrying a club executive, in the last week of October. Twice. Each article should say that, in the same way similar plane/road crashes refer to each other in the See also section. Kingsif (talk) 11:18, 29 October 2018 (UTC)
A "See also" section is quite common, and this one basically follows the guidance of MOS:SEEALSO to the letter. Joefromrandb (talk) 11:51, 29 October 2018 (UTC)
"A helicopter crashed after leaving a football game, carrying a club executive, in the last week of October. Twice." That is a complete coincidence though. Is there anything at all to suggest that there is a connection between the two events? Deb (talk) 14:51, 29 October 2018 (UTC)
Sorry? Is every terror attack in Berlin related? No, but See also is not a synonym for Directly related to - otherwise the content would belong in the article body, and See also wouldn’t exist. This discussion is pointless, can you stop needlessly questioning a well-ingrained part of WP that after 10+ years you should understand. Kingsif (talk) 19:13, 29 October 2018 (UTC)
It's a SEE ALSO, which means that the events may be similar. Why is this so difficult for an "admin" to understand? Wow. The Rambling Man (talk) 20:35, 29 October 2018 (UTC)
Wow - clearly I was wrong in thinking that the "See also" section should be reserved for relevant links. Forgive me for being so stupid as to dare to ask a question. I bow to your superior knowledge. Deb (talk) 13:28, 30 October 2018 (UTC)

Unreliable sources

A reminder that as per Wikipedia:Potentially_unreliable_sources#News_media, British tabloid newspapers like the Mirror are potentially unreliable. Please try and use better sources if possible. Joseph2302 (talk) 08:02, 29 October 2018 (UTC)

Yes, but when what they report is included in a live video, it’s probably true. You can see it with your own eyes at the source. Kingsif (talk) 11:13, 29 October 2018 (UTC)
OK, I've had enough. The next editor that removes an {{unreliable source}} tag without removing the unreliable source itself gets a trout. Mjroots (talk) 18:11, 30 October 2018 (UTC)

Photograph of the wreckage

Could this article do with an image of the wreckage the morning after the crash? TheMasterGuru (talk) 14:36, 29 October 2018 (UTC)

@TheMasterGuru: Yes that would be appropriate, is there one on commons? IWI (chat) 15:45, 30 October 2018 (UTC)
Photos of the floral / jersey tributes would also be appropriate. Nothing has shown up on Geograph yet. Mjroots (talk) 18:03, 30 October 2018 (UTC)
No images of either the wreckage or the floral tributes on commons. TheMasterGuru (talk) 18:33, 30 October 2018 (UTC)
Floral tributes wouldn’t be appropriate as the lead image anyway. IWI (chat) 16:19, 31 October 2018 (UTC)

Remembrance book

Should the online and off-line remembrance books be mentioned or not? Govvy (talk) 23:03, 31 October 2018 (UTC)

Only briefly with it linked as a citation. IWI (chat) 23:37, 31 October 2018 (UTC)
It is there, in the "responses" section. Mjroots (talk) 12:46, 1 November 2018 (UTC)

Isabela

Isabela was not only Eric's partner, she was also a pilot in the employ of the King Power owner and regularly flew for him.— Preceding unsigned comment added by 203.86.205.226 (talk • contribs) 04:40, 29 October 2018

Some sources say 2 pilots, others say 1 pilot. This will come out in the AAIB report when it is released. Not worth fighting over, as there had to be 1 pilot at least. Mjroots (talk) 07:27, 29 October 2018 (UTC)
All sources say that she was there as a passenger, despite having a commercial plane pilot license. How about we just write what they say Kingsif (talk) 11:12, 29 October 2018 (UTC)
This from Pprune - She did not have a helicopter licence, so could not have been crew. Mjroots (talk) 20:02, 29 October 2018 (UTC)

It seems that someone has removed, apart from one, the names and roles of those on board. Andy Mabbett (Pigsonthewing); Talk to Andy; Andy's edits 10:34, 2 November 2018 (UTC)

names

Why are the other victims names not listed on the article? — Preceding unsigned comment added by 2A02:C7D:E26B:F900:E9A9:C70:C8A7:93A2 (talk) 11:27, 4 November 2018 (UTC)

We dont normally list victims names unless they are otherwise noteworthy (normally indicated by having a stand-alone wikipedia article or be notable enough that they could have a standalone wiklpedia article). Sometimes the pilot/pilots are mentioned as they and information about them is relevant to the investigation. MilborneOne (talk) 12:52, 4 November 2018 (UTC)
See relevant guidelines at WP:NOTNEWS and WP:NOTMEMORIAL. --Deeday-UK (talk) 13:01, 4 November 2018 (UTC)

Requested move 28 October 2018

The following is a closed discussion of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on the talk page. Editors desiring to contest the closing decision should consider a move review. No further edits should be made to this section.

The result of the move request was: moved. There is a narrow consensus to move as proposed. The opposing arguments' single claim is that there is a close connection to the football club but the supporters' arguments' are backed by policy and naming convention, thus are given more weight. As the votes are about equal in numbers, I have given stronger weight to the support arguments due to their basing off naming conventions such as Wikipedia:WikiProject_Aviation/Aviation_accident_task_force#Accident article naming conventions and Wikipedia:WikiProject_Aviation/Style_guide#Accidents. One argument citing WP:COMMONNAME, opposed on the basis that the 2018 should be dropped and not because they agreed with keeping F.C. in the title. Taking into consideration all the other minor points, it was obvious to me that there exists a consensus to eliminate F.C. and those who argued to keep it have plainly done so on the grounds that the accident is closely connected to the football club but that is highly sentimental and not policy-based. The supporters also argued that as the football club wasn't the helicopter's operator, it is unnecessary to include club's name, citing precedents such as 2013 Glasgow helicopter crash and 2006 New York City plane crash. These arguments made by the supporters are stronger than those of the opposers.(page mover nac) Flooded with them hundreds 19:15, 4 November 2018 (UTC)

2018 Leicester City F.C. helicopter crash → 2018 Leicester helicopter crash – Just because the owner was on board and it ocurred outside the ground, does not mean we need to include the title of the football club in the title. IWI (chat) 16:43, 28 October 2018 (UTC)

  • Oppose - current title is fine for now. Article may need to be moved if it becomes apparent that a named company was operating the helicopter (non-RS source suggests that this is the case). Mjroots (talk) 16:55, 28 October 2018 (UTC)
  • Support - Makes sense to me. Or, if this title stays, create a redirect to it from 2018 Leicester helicopter crash. Yintan  16:58, 28 October 2018 (UTC)
  • Oppose - Keep for now as I feel most people looking for this subject will be searching for Leicester City F.C. — Preceding unsigned comment added by TheMasterGuru (talk • contribs) 16:59, 28 October 2018 (UTC)
  • Oppose Whilst I don't want to be insensitive to the horror the families have suffered, the crash is most likely to be remembered for the effect on LCFC JRPG (talk) 17:55, 28 October 2018 (UTC)
  • Oppose name seems fine to me, it associates to the footy club and suggested title doesn't do that so much. Govvy (talk) 18:14, 28 October 2018 (UTC)
  • Oppose per the above, but I've created the target as a redirect to help anyone. Lugnuts Fire Walk with Me 18:22, 28 October 2018 (UTC)
  • Oppose per above, I would suggest keeping the current title and just dropping '2018' from it though as it hasn't happened before. Buttons0603 (talk) 22:34, 28 October 2018 (UTC)
  • Support - Fundamentally the O.P. is correct since no players from the club suffered any direct injury, however one should establish whether there have been any similar events in the past, and how they were named, "decided cases" in legal terms.Nolween (talk) 22:52, 28 October 2018 (UTC)
  • Other I'd better see 2018 Leicester stadium helicopter crash since the place is more important than the club here --Df (talk) 23:33, 28 October 2018 (UTC)
    • Comment It's not called "Leicester stadium" and neither is it the only stadium in Leicester. Stadium is called "The King Power Stadium." That name might make sense, since it's more localised than "Leicester" and it's not the only helicopter crash to have occurred in Leicester. It is the only one at the KP. Guinness2702 (talk) 01:16, 29 October 2018 (UTC)
  • Comment We also tend not to use the word "crash" in aviation article titles. We use the word "accident" (see Aviation accidents and incidents). So I would suggest 2018 King Power Stadium helicopter accident with a redirect from other options like the current title and some of the other suggestions. Lard Almighty (talk) 07:56, 29 October 2018 (UTC)
  • Support moving to 2018 Leicester helicopter accident. Accident preferred over crash, and it's the only notable helicopter accident in Leicester this year. It didn't actually happen in the stadium, so I Oppose stadium name being used (especially as it's also a sponsor name). Joseph2302 (talk) 08:51, 29 October 2018 (UTC)
  • Support Makes more sense as the football team itself wasn't involved, and it would fit with 2013 Berlin helicopter crash, 2013 Glasgow helicopter crash and 2015 Fox Glacier helicopter crash. It helps to have a consistent naming scheme and if there is to be a consistent one, there are issues with using the term accident that are highlighted at the traffic collision page. Anywikiuser (talk) 10:15, 29 October 2018 (UTC)
  • Oppose I live in Leicester, and the link between the city, the club and the feeling for the sadly deceased is very strong. Removing this link feels as though it somehow diminishes, so changing the title does not feel appropriate from the perspective of a local. (Additionally, the helicopter took off from inside the stadium and crashed in the club's car park, so the link is to the club's location as much as the club per se.)
  • Support per WikiProject Aviation Accident article naming conventions <year> <place> <event> is the format to be used in this kind of case. Klõps (talk) 10:23, 29 October 2018 (UTC)
  • Support – The current title is incorrect and does not comply with guidelines. Leicester City F.C. was not the operator of the helicopter, which according to G-INFO, was registered to FOXBOROUGH LTD from the Isle of Man. The proposed new title as <year> <place> <event> instead does comply, and it's also simpler and clearer. The use of crash (as opposed to accident) is so common nowadays (including often in official reports) that the term can no longer be considered informal. --Deeday-UK (talk) 11:42, 29 October 2018 (UTC)
  • Reply Deeday-UK You say title should be <year> <place> <event> , but the place was the grounds of Leicester City Football club, so the current title makes sense so I am not sure what you're supporting. Govvy (talk) 11:48, 29 October 2018 (UTC)
'Leicester City F.C.' is not a place; it's the name of a company or club, so no, the current title doesn't make sense, from the guidelines' point of view. --Deeday-UK (talk) 11:55, 29 October 2018 (UTC)
So do you use the name of the stadium-ground or the name of the football club that operates from that ground. The key point is to inform of the reader what the page is about. Would WP:COMMONNAME suggest to use the stadium name or the club name that operates from that ground? To suggest the entirety of the whole city in the title for a crash which can be specified by a more localised name? Govvy (talk) 12:08, 29 October 2018 (UTC)
AviationProject currently uses the name of the municipality. This article should keep this consistency. 2013 Glasgow helicopter crash not 2013 Clutha Vaults helicopter crash, 2006 New York City plane crash not 2006 Belaire Apartments plane crash etc. If you think that whole city should not be in the titles of articles about aviation accidents You should take this to Wikipedia:WikiProject Aviation. Klõps (talk) 13:45, 29 October 2018 (UTC)
There's no need to zoom in on a very specific location if "2018 Leicester helicopter crash" is already unambiguous. Anywikiuser (talk) 13:48, 29 October 2018 (UTC)
I guess you guys make a valid point, we have Munich air disaster, which was a big loss also, these events are so rare so it does make sense the way you suggest. Govvy (talk) 14:29, 29 October 2018 (UTC)
If we're going to follow the naming convention, then it should be 2018 Amadeus Aviation AgustaWestland AW169 crash. This is one of those times when not following the naming convention makes sense. Mjroots (talk) 05:51, 30 October 2018 (UTC)
  • Support Title is unnecessarily verbose, plus club names aren't fully written out in other football-related articles. sixtynine • whaddya want? • 14:32, 29 October 2018 (UTC)
  • Oppose It's very closely connected to the football club, rather than just happening in the town as a whole. Plus the most high profile victim was the club's owner so it makes sense to keep the current title. The C of E God Save the Queen! (talk) 15:35, 29 October 2018 (UTC)
  • Oppose, given that this incident is so very intimately linked with the club, being a helicopter painted in the club's colours, carrying the club's owner, that took off from the club's pitch and crashed right outside the club's stadium in one of the club's car parks, resulting in the death of said club owner. Pyrope 17:10, 29 October 2018 (UTC)
  • Support The current title is hugely misleading. It suggest that an Helicopter owned by, or even named, Leister City FC crashed.Tvx1 19:37, 29 October 2018 (UTC)
The helicopter was painted in the team's colours and carried the team's badge on its tail. The aircraft and the club were owned by the same guy and he frequently parked one on the centre circle of the other's pitch, so the two were very strongly associated. Add to that the fact that this incident occurred wholly within the footprint of the club's property and I don't think you can sensibly argue that the title is "hugely" misleading. Pyrope 20:39, 29 October 2018 (UTC)
Usually, yes, because usually there isn't a compelling alternate association. However, when there is we make exceptions (e.g. Graham Hill plane crash). Pyrope 20:03, 30 October 2018 (UTC)
  • Support - Just like above.. The club didn't own the helicopter, and because of that I find 2018 Leicester helicopter crash is the best title for the article. Ben5218 (talk) 16:20, 31 October 2018 (UTC)
  • Support - The proposed name does follow naming conventions, let us be consistent. C. J. T. T. Wilson (talk) 06:32, 1 November 2018 (UTC)
The above discussion is preserved as an archive of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on this talk page or in a move review. No further edits should be made to this section.
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